Whine... :p


21-05-2007 09:55:24

So yeah, not to throw a spanner in any works or anything, but we have a GJW coming up, and well, wouldnt it be cool if we split the club into Jedi and Sith? I mean, i remeber had this conversation with Goatham once... there are no Jedi based clubs, not of note anyway, and wouldnt it make a GJW diffrent for once? I mean its always the same thing, i dunno i just think if we supported Jedi and Sith it'd and more spice to everything, and competitions and stuff like that. Yes before anyone says i'm well aware this is the Dark Jedi Brotherhood, but whats it to drop the dark bit, i mean star wars clubs cant really be picky and choosey as they once could. :P

I dunno, it'd just add more depth and i fancyed a whine, and a rant. So thats my question. Wouldnt it be better? Wouldnt it be cool? Wouldnt it stop me whinning? :P

Makurth Mandalore

21-05-2007 11:43:16

Hmm, that would be kinda neat for the GJW.... I mean, a few people might actually want to play as a Jedi for the heck of it..

But, I don't think it'd stop your whining :P You'd just find something else J/K


21-05-2007 12:26:47

Me stop whinning, nevah. But yeah i was thinking more of using the GJW as a catalyst to something more permenant afterwards. People who wish to play as Jedi are an untapped resource. :P


21-05-2007 15:22:55

To my knowledge, this is the Dark Jedi Brotherhood. 'nuff said.


21-05-2007 15:46:43

You missed the point i was making ;)

Yes before anyone says i'm well aware this is the Dark Jedi Brotherhood

Which if you'd read what i said, you'd have noticed. ;)

At the end of the day, the clubs always looking for ways to evolve and grow for the better, from watching the films and playing the games we all know the Jedi fight Sith (Even those who dont really know much about Star Wars and pick up a random Star Wars game). What Jedi do we have? There's no real major groups around, and if there was, there's no guarantee you could get a persistant Jedi vs Sith thing going with them. It just adds an extra layer of excitment, brings us more into touch with what we are, a Star Wars group. With the GJW, instead of the same competing with a tired storyline ill thought out storyline, why not go back to the basic's and throw something new in?

We are looking for something new, thats what Rebirth was all about. But perhaps the obvious path to take was more obvious ;P

But yeah if you're going to pick up on things like this being the Dark Jedi Brotherhood... Krath and Sith arnt Dark Jedi. :P

Thats the thing thats get me sometimes how we seem to be wandering so far from the canon of the star wars universe and people start to think some things here are based on canon fact, when they arnt :P


21-05-2007 15:50:35

I'm trying to point out you answered your own question. It is well known that there are Light Side characters in the DB, and it is acceptabl. Nothing is preventing you from doing that. As for the GJW, you'll have to wait until the storyline is released.


21-05-2007 16:01:09

You're still missing the point i'm making :P

Just shhh :P

And the only real light sider was Mike at one point ages ago, and well it was Mike, so enough said.

It wasnt just a question it was also a suggestion, when people come to the site they see Dark Jedi Brotherhood, as you have pointed out, its not about me doing that, its about appealing to a diffrent type of Star Wars Geek, and building on what the club already is.

How many people who come here know what Krath and Obelisk are? 10% a year? If that? What i'm saying is if people saw Jedi and Sith, everyone whos ever watched a film knows what Jedi and Sith are, even some who havnt seen the films. It also adds more depth to the club instead of Clan Fueds, Sith versus Sith, actually something star warsy, what Star Wars is all about, Jedi versus Sith. :P (Good Versus Bad, the big part of any story, catches everyones eye :P)

People will look at the website and say "Oh wow i can be a Jedi!" or "Oh wow i can be a Sith!", and in fueds or whatever they can fight Jedi or Sith, just like they do in the films :P

Is my point a little clearer? Thing is, this is what Goatham had in mind for the future of the club, and i think it'd be a good step forward. This is more of a suggestion, then a question now :P


21-05-2007 16:11:20

Well, the idea is one that's been debated, however, I don't think Goat ever intended for the club to become to completely seperate entities, a light and dark side. He may have debated the ideas of have a major lightside party in a GJW, but the DB started out as a group embodying the force sensitves of the empire, and that continues today. Things like multi club competitions, such as the Independence games, make up for our lack of Light vs. Dark competitions, in my opinion.

The GJW for this year is not likely to be affected by the discussion on this, however, if you can organize with the people interested in this and create some specific ideas, then I see no reason why Sarin would ignore it.

As for the orders, go read Kaine Mandaala's blog. He has some interesting thoughts on orders there, and I tend to agree with him. The reason we have a Codex, is so new members can learn about the DB when they join. If it hasn't been done already, it might be a good idea to have a link to it on the join page.


21-05-2007 16:19:58

*Looks around for Michael Halcyon* >.<


21-05-2007 16:29:50

Problem about learning about the DB is, its wandering a far way away from Star Wars intself :P

Anyway, lets see what other people have to say. :P

Mike's gone anyway, banished to the abyss :P


21-05-2007 16:39:38

Raven pretty much hit on what I was going to say.

The upcoming GJW can't be changed; we're far to along in the planning to be making major changes. As for future GJWs, I can't say anything. It'll ultimately end up with whoever is planning it. You can certainly toss out ideas, especially here on the message boards, and they'll be viewed.

As for the Orders, we do have the Codex, and when we rewrote the Order Core exams, we used the Codex as one of our primary sources. You do have to know (or, if you already know, remember) that the order system used to be platform restricted. Sith did the flying sims, Krath the writing, and the Obelisk the lightsaber stuff (JK way back in the day). That's why I am a Krath: back when I joined, I had none of the games, so I had to go with the writing route. With the switch (now a few years ago) to open platform, people are able to do everything, regardless of order. Well, a lot of new members go with the familiar, the Sith, as was noted. I'm almost done with an "Order Interest Survey" to post on the join page to help people make a choice.

Adding a permanent Light Jedi element to the DB would require a massive structural change. I suppose if there were enough volunteers, we could make an interesting, short lived competition out of it, though.

All that being said, I still think we should keep the order system as is. Its great for fictional development, and there's an untold number of pissant "Sith" groups on the internet (some of which have rather amusing websites), but there are very few organizations that are on par with the DB.

Mike Halcyon

21-05-2007 16:44:49

Rumors about my banishment are highly exaggerated.


21-05-2007 16:54:22

Heh, Mike, the only guy who can make a picture of Obi Wan look gay. ;P

But yeah, alot of people want to do away with orders, i mean i know what you're saying Anshar, when i joined i was a Krath then an Obbie. But at the end of the day we're a Star Wars group, and one of the biggest, if not the biggest (No including things like the SWC)

With orders and stuff like that we've drifted so far from Star Wars itself, for instance there's no such thing as Obelisk in canon, Krath dont exist in our time period, and that just leaves Sith.

This is the club we've all spent years in, so yeah dont think i'm stabbing anyone in the back here, but there is a decline in joins for the club these days, and we'ree just same old same old, same competitions, not very much fictional depth.

Rebirth was also a large undertaking to the effect that it never got done, and the need was to change the club, i didnt know what that entailed exactly, but we as a club aer sitting on a gold mine that we arnt exactly minning here, just because some people like orders :P

Kaine Mandaala

21-05-2007 16:54:39

As for the orders, go read Kaine Mandaala's blog. He has some interesting thoughts on orders there, and I tend to agree with him.

You can get there by clicking my sig in case you are too lazy to look up my dossier.

And to reiterate the answer given about a common misconception - Rebirth wasn't a one-shot change all to the DJB. It is a series of changes, almost all of which have happened. The only real thing stuck out there unfinished is the RPG system with prestige points and all that.

Mike Halcyon

21-05-2007 17:08:05

The problem with a "Jedi Order" within the DJB, Morgan, is inherit to the Jedi Code. While as a Sith, you can act any way you want, as a Jedi you can't. Who enforces the Jedi Code? Who tells you when your character has fallen to the dark side? Where is the difference between somebody in the DJB playing a Jedi and another a Sith? Are you going to prevent a "fallen Jedi" from rejoining the Jedi Order? And conversely, are you barring Sith from joining the Order because "the Dark Side forever controls your destiny"? How would you realize these mechanics with the meager site structure provided currently?

While you certainly may believe that you have an awesome idea nobody else thought about before, there's a whole rat-tail dragged behind with problems you can't easily imagine. Unless somebody gets to work on a substantial change, both site- and doctrine-wise, any "Jedi Order" realized within the current boundaries of the DJB is bound to fail.


21-05-2007 17:49:25

I'm sure people have thought of it before, as i said Goat made some mention of it ;)

I wish people would read sometimes :P

I guess the diffrence between Jedi and Sith is the same as the diffrence between Krath and Sith, two fundamentaly diffrent groups. Wether a person is good or evil, really comes down too what they label thier character as good or evil. If they consider thier character good, they are obviosly going to play that character as good. Fictionally, i guess limitation to using powers known to be light side, and neutral force powers for thier use, so it limits them from doing evil things, as for changing between Jedi and Sith, i supose they'd have to be a very good writer and write a reasonable explination for thier change. ;p

As for stopping people transfering between them all the time, limit them to a certain number of changes, like after 6 months, they can change, at perhaps 12 months or something like that. :P

Plus more to the point, when have we ever done anything spot on? ;P


21-05-2007 18:49:25

Ya even canon has disproved the whole Jediz r teh good and Sith r teh bad, logical fallacy.

Mace was going to summarily execute Palpy (without due process) and lead the Jedi in assuming control of the Republic. How’s that for a good guy!


21-05-2007 18:54:53

There we go then. :P

I cant think that too many Jedi were Jedi like in the Sith Wars somehow, i mean Jedi seem to put thier morals aside when fighting Sith. :P

A "Whatever it takes to defeat evil" kind of attitude ;P

Nice blog btw, Kaine. I definatly agree with dropping Obbie's :P


21-05-2007 18:54:55

i see more reason in light and dark side then sith, obelisk and krath to be honest. But i am a new guy without any connection to the past of DJB.


21-05-2007 19:04:05

Past is gone, gotta look to the future. Need i say anymore? :P


22-05-2007 05:29:30

Cmon folks, this isnt just for the Dark Council, its just a handy place for people to air thier ideas for what they'd like to see in the future of the club. :P

I'm sure everyone has some ideas. ;P

Personally i'd like to see alot of things, mostly turning back towards the light (e.g Star Wars Canon) Because through the changing of DC positions these days. As for hat i said about the GJW, well i'm using it as an example for a catalyst as i said, i think Zeron hit it right on the head there, saying he sees more reason for Jedi vs Sith. Yeah it'd need major structural changes, or we could fester and make little changes which in the long run dont make any major diffrence and dont really take the club anywher :P

Sith Bloodfyre

22-05-2007 08:26:21

It isn't a matter of whether this is a good idea or not; it's whether it can be implemented well or not. Many people, even quite a few on the DC, have liked this idea in many forms. The problem is, there has never been a suitable/appropriate way to adapt the Club this way, or to ensure that the "sides remain equal." Stuff like that.

Instead of just putting forth the idea and talking about how cool it would be (in some ways, it would), get with people and figure out how it could be introduced well. And no, having Mike Halcyon "come back with Apprentices" is not a good way to introduce it. Ever.

Kaine Mandaala

22-05-2007 08:37:03

Ya even canon has disproved the whole Jediz r teh good and Sith r teh bad, logical fallacy.

Mace was going to summarily execute Palpy (without due process) and lead the Jedi in assuming control of the Republic. How’s that for a good guy!

Wait wait wait... You're going to generalize the Jedi Order based on the actions of one member? There were dozens of Jedi, but one acted a little out of character and suddenly they're all evil?

Who's to say it wasn't the corruption of Palpatine forcing Windu to act that way? Everyone has some sort of weakness, and the Sith might have tapped into his. For Mace it was immediate justice - he knew Palpatine was a major threat and to him the best thing to do would be to stop that threat. Obi-Wan hung on to hope, even as his best friend was trying to kill him.

At least with the Sith you had three characters who all acted pretty much the same. Then Anakin became Vader, and acted like them too.


22-05-2007 09:11:35

Lol Bf. But yeah as i said, the GJW would be a great catalyst, i'm sure we can get some one with fictional genius to come up with a way to do it.

I'd personally say, lets knock the club into a more canon "Sith" enviroment (By that i mean drop Dark Jedi ranks, and go for Sith ranks through and through, after dumping Krath and Obelisk or something :P), an evil act which some go for, others rethink thier standing on being Sith/Dark Jedi, hence take it upon themselves to cure the Galaxy of the "Sith threat", kind of deal. (Simular to Protestants and Catholics :P)

I'm not saying "hey lets go rip the club in two", i'm saying start off by converting a clan into a Jedi counterpart, see if people take too it, and build on that. You know what i mean? :P

As for the Mace Windu thing, if you read through this and that, mostly Sith War stuff, i think you'll find Mace falls quite well into the catagory of Knights of the Old Republic, yeah they capture Revan, but in the battle between Hoth and Kaan, i cant imagine the Jedi took to many prisoners to get to that point. Wether he was being corrupted by Palpatine or not, you can think of it as Jedi with diffrent views, or because the Jedi are in such close proximity and constant battle with Sith. :P

Muz Ashen

23-05-2007 17:59:34

Jedi have kinda acted dodgy in the films, Kaine... playing hard and fast with the 'rules', so long as they can justify it later.

Qui-Gon Jinn 'wasn't there to free the slaves', and took a boy from his mother.

Obi-Wan likes to slice people up in bars, and tells his padawans lies about their family (Vader killed your father).

Yoda berated and scared a padawan into the darkside by hitting him with that zen detachment stuff when he clearly needed comfort, and to be talked to about self-fulfilling prophecy.

Mace was all about immediate justice. Jango Fett was summarily executed by decapitation in front of his child. Palpy and all that, too.

And that's all the major Jedi in the movies. And yeah, I know that the Jedi are more 'neutral' than 'good', but I'm making a point here. ;)


Rigar Ulrand

23-05-2007 19:09:43

Well in all the movies ive come to my own theory about Mace.
I believe that his lightsabre color was symbolic to his light/dark side standing
all of the jedi either had a blue or green sabre
and all of the dark jedi had red
yin and yang type of situation
mace was niether good nor evil
he just did what he felt had to be done


23-05-2007 19:56:46

I thought it was just that Sam was a kinky bad mother [Expletive Deleted F-word]er


24-05-2007 04:24:13

First of all, I wouldn’t disagree with disbanding the Obelisk order, but with it should go the Krath order and Sith can once again be synonymous with Dark Jedi. The reason I say that is that the Krath have no business in 25 ABY or whatever year it is now. As far as I know, they died during the Great Hyperspace War.

Wait wait wait... You're going to generalize the Jedi Order based on the actions of one member?

The greatest Sith all came from the Jedi Order. Quinlan Vos became a Dark Acolyte, Aayla Secura fought under the banner of Volfe Karkko, Revan, Ulic Qel-Droma and Vader all came from the Jedi, turned to the Dark Side and again to the “light”. Dooku technically died while still a “Sith”, but were his actions wrong? Was there no justification for siding against the ineffective bureaucracy that the Republic had become?

Who's to say it wasn't the corruption of Palpatine forcing Windu to act that way?

The actions of fallen Jedi reflect on the Jedi Order. Saying that the actions these Jedi took weren’t representative of the Jedi Order is a semantical argument akin to a Christian dismissing the excesses of the crusades, the inquisition, the Reconquista etc. because those people weren’t actually Christian, or a Muslim dismissing car bombing, honor killings and suicide bombings because those things aren’t actually Islamic.

Also you must understand, I don’t believe the light side or the dark side exist canonicaly. Canonicaly I believe the force actually operates similar to the Potentium force philosophy. The reason Lucas doesn’t say this in my opinion, is to illustrate the depth of the galaxies belief in this duality, which in character is a likely result of Jedi/Republic propaganda.

The reason I believe that the force is not actually polarized in canon is that George Lucas is an admitted student of Joseph Campbell’s work. Dr. Joseph Campbell is a modern day philosopher with a vast amount of knowledge about religions and cultures, including Taoism and Zen (Which comes from Chinese Chan Buddhism, which is a combination of Taoism and Buddhism).

Campbell has quite a bit to say about the INTERACTION BETWEEN yin and yang or light and dark if you will, as well as the need to escape dualistic thought. Nothing Lucas would have learned from Campbell would lead to a polarized force.


24-05-2007 06:47:24

Well in all the movies ive come to my own theory about Mace.
I believe that his lightsabre color was symbolic to his light/dark side standing

lol sry man, but Samuel just said cant i have the lightsaber color of purple? :P


24-05-2007 07:03:45

Very nice post. :)

Though i'd say the greatest Sith were Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos and Ludo Kressh, because they were all part Sith the species i think. I may be wrong. (Oh and Palpatine):P

They are just all ugly in the same kind of way. :P

But yeah, Etah made a great point there about it all being "dualistic". The thing that makes it all popular is the Good versus Evil thing.

As for the Order thing, i'd say we drop the Dark Jedi thing, i think people are more interested in being Sith, then Dark Jedi. Or am i wrong? :P


24-05-2007 09:45:27

I do not think there is that much difference between Dark Jedi and Sith, and if you want to go canon, we cant be sith of the olds :)


24-05-2007 09:55:32

The diffrence between Dark Jedi and Sith is that Sith were deemed fearless, followed thier history, and ideology, alchemy and stuff like that. Dark Jedi used the dark side, but were usually fallen jedi, or trained by other dark jedi, they tended not to be connected to any groups, and didnt have the rules and such of the Sith Order, they'd be more in tune with our Rogues. As Mike said about the Jedi Order, the Sith Order has just as many rules though. Plus somelpace Count Dooku says the a Dark Jedi's power is nothing compared to a Sith's power.

I've always thought, that a Sith Warrior is as powerful as a Jedi Master. :P


24-05-2007 11:01:41

"Dark Jedi" is a generic term for any Dark Side user; "Sith" is a specific term to describe a specific (albeit large and important) group of them. But, Krath are not Sith, though they are related, and influenced by the Sith. However, a Krath is still a "Dark Jedi" in a very generic sense of the word.

As for the whole "evil" thing, well, that gets a bit tricky. Sure, Vader was created/designed to be evil from the start. Consider his first appearance in A New Hope, if nothing else. But, then you get into arguments like: was Revan evil just because method for achieving his goal may have left something to be desired? The Sith in Star Wars ultimtely play that bad role and they've committed numerous atrocities to justify that evil image. Sure, many Jedi fall into that morally ambigious area fairly often that may lead us to question their inherent goodness.

At a very basic level, the Jedi strive for high ideals; the Sith go for results. If either group, or individuals, have to compromise, then that's just reality.


24-05-2007 13:30:33

Very well put Anshar.

I think we've pretty much established that Dark Jedi and Sith are diffrent, and that Jedi and Sith have diffrent ideals depending on the Jedi and Sith in question. If you wanted to be Jedi, you're going to stick to Jedi ideals, i think it'd be a great fictional point for people to be fighting the constant lure of the darkside. Anyway, i was thinking people could go through the academy, and then choose thier destiny Jedi or Sith kind of thing.


24-05-2007 16:58:27

I like the idea of splitting the club into that. It would take a lot of time and dedication from members who want to start it; and you have to have an intermediate sized group interested in such an action.

Also, in response to Rigar: It's a nice theory that he had a both light and dark standing with the saber color, but it says in an interview with Samuel Jackson that he wanted the purple lightsaber because he wanted to be identified in all of the action scenes where there were a sea of green and blue. :)


24-05-2007 17:35:34

it is even documented in the Star Wars DVD ;)


25-05-2007 18:35:38

You can’t have a green lightsaber while your riding in a white Impala with violet interior, enough said.

Rigar Ulrand

25-05-2007 19:28:31

Also, in response to Rigar: It's a nice theory that he had a both light and dark standing with the saber color, but it says in an interview with Samuel Jackson that he wanted the purple lightsaber because he wanted to be identified in all of the action scenes where there were a sea of green and blue. :)

True he said that he just wanted it to stand out, but Lucas could of seen the symbolism in it and went with it you know. Also a jedi can do morally wrong or "evil things" and still in a way be a jedi


25-05-2007 19:31:25

Tangent much? :P

Makurth Mandalore

26-05-2007 23:08:14

Meh, not really :D

Muz Ashen

03-06-2007 18:46:23

As Beef said, there's a lot of people who think it'd be a cooler idea to open up stuff by making orders more of a RP thing (I mean to say that we'd all be Dark Jedi, but you could pick Sith or Krath, or Nightsister or Sorcerer of Tund or whatever). It makes for a more diverse club...and it would finally get rid of the order stereotypes (like Sith only fly, krath only write, etc.

And I do think that it'd be a good idea to go back to the Canon. The only real reason we invented Obelisk is because there were video games that weren't defined by an existing order. Since gaming and activity restrictions aren't in play any more, all the Obelisk are a RP thing, a memorial to how we have done things five years ago.

But yeah, these are huge changes that would require massive changes in coding and the like. It's not just a switch to throw. And just think back to how the dissolution of Order Leaders played out... the closing of an order would be worse. We don't really want to alienate or lose all those members.


03-06-2007 18:53:18

I think its more of a case of change for the better or for the worse, either way could be the result, but then again, it also opens up new avenues, as a club we should stay true to the members yes, but as a star wars club we should stay true to... well... star wars... :P