Order Leaders

Sephiroth Kali

11-10-2006 21:15:07

Greetings Councilors,

While I am sure this question has been asked before, what is the official status of the Order Leaders? Obviously they have no official standing. However it was my understanding that they would/could be used for rople-playing. How can this be if no one occupies these positions?


11-10-2006 21:55:31

What were these "Order Leaders"?


11-10-2006 23:37:49


The order leaders were once the member who ran their order. The Brotherhood used to be divided along strict order lines: Obelisk could only play JO/JA type games, Sith were the flight simulators, and the Krath did fiction and poetry. There was no cross over; order leaders guided their orders, provided competitions for their orders, they were considered members of the Dark Council, and they helped plan Brotherhood wide events (like Great Jedi Wars). When we opened events to everyone, order leaders became "obsolete" in a sense. The Fiction Tribune and the Gaming Tribune handle much of the jobs once held by Order leaders.


The order leaders still exist in fiction. There would be someone in that position; it does make it difficult to actually identify them. I don't think it would be out of the question to say that the last people to hold those positions could still be considered the ____ high _____.

Given that, Sith Bloodfyre would be the Sith High Warrior, Korras would be the Obelisk High Commander, and Telona would be the Krath High Priestess. But, I *must* emphasize that this would be only fictional, and it has no official standing. If Jac and Xanos (or anyone else) have anything to say about this, then take them over me.

Sith Bloodfyre

12-10-2006 01:11:30

Actually, Anshar is mostly correct. When Jac and I had talked (near my resignation as SHW) about the Order Leaders, he had mentioned several ideas, including keeping them involved in fiction (no actual member would hold the position, they'd be NPCs, basically); or they'd be fictional/NPC members, and would eventually be killed off. Again, there were several ideas tossed around, and at present, I don't believe any final solution has been met.


12-10-2006 10:34:42

Cool well i need an email adress and not a normal one im an Obelisk is there one like you know Krath mail


12-10-2006 14:34:29

I thought that the order leaders dissolved fictionally too. :ermm:
Or we just did this such a long time ago that I've convinced myself the order leaders were fictionally removed from power and now have it stuck in my head that I read that somewhere, which is entirely possible. :$

Sephiroth Kali

12-10-2006 16:39:28

I would like the idea of having actual NPC's taking their positions, or having members holding the positions, but the positions would simply not give them any actual athority.

For instance, if someone wanted access to the part of the Archives that contain our artifacts, it would make sense that they would go to the "KHP". Do you get where i'm going?

Kaine Mandaala

12-10-2006 16:42:17

I'm all for either NPC's or a powerless title to a Member.

Sephiroth Kali

12-10-2006 17:44:41

Could we get a poll in the polling center?

Tarax Kor

12-10-2006 18:11:42

I'm all for either NPC's or a powerless title to a Member.

I think NPCs are best. Because a title gives power, no matter how minimal. It's almost as appointing a real Order Leader...

best just leave it as DJM Joe Schmoe, Sith High Warrior, etc.


12-10-2006 21:19:02

Hi all,

Is it possible to do Rite of Supremecies without Order Leaders?


13-10-2006 03:42:55

a new type of competition could be created from the rivality between the orders. Not always clan vs clan. And there the order leaders would have a purpose already


13-10-2006 05:37:24

Though i thought the leaders were no more too

Sephiroth Kali

13-10-2006 10:25:04

a new type of competition could be created from the rivality between the orders. Not always clan vs clan. And there the order leaders would have a purpose already

We used to have them, they were known as Rites of Supremacy's


13-10-2006 10:30:44

im just saying some kind of competition between the orders would raise the purpose of having them ;)


13-10-2006 10:37:34

Order leaders were dissolved back in January. They were dissolved for a number of reasons, most of which has already been said. The idea of giving someone the OL title through competition or just write one in fictionally has been bounced around but nothing has been done as you all have pointed out.

In the past, the DB was restricted to orders according to what you had interest in. ie. Sith only played the flight simulators, Krath only did writing, and Obies only played the FPS. Now that those shackles are gone we are free to dip into any activity. People still cling to the old way without seeing what the orders really are about. The Obies are the warriors and ground pounders, The Sith are the pilots and the politically inclined, the Krath are the mystics and string pullers.

Having a competition based on order verses order is the same thing as having a GJW only you are leaving some people out. It's not fair and the MAA's office would see a lot of order jumping so people could play. Same thing with the RoS'. Those days are pretty much gone now.

In my opinion, orders should be taken down to the one that has been used in all the movies to describe Dark Side users, Sith. Though Krath are cannon, that was a religious sect that died off thousands of years ago. Obies, I believe, were made up when JK came out. Take us down to one order and there wouldn't be any more confusion.

Heck, do a Dark Sider and a Sith order. Dark Siders being those who use to be Jedi and turned away, Sith being those who never knew the Jedi ways. Both based on what the member puts in their history. This will encourage histories to be written and might give a decent fictional base for an RoS or Order verses Order thing. Just my thoughts.


13-10-2006 11:08:14

Ok then

Sith Bloodfyre

13-10-2006 11:49:26

The thing is, "Order Wars" are a concept that is very possible. It would require all the Sith to act together, all the Obelisk to act together, and all the Krath to act together, and fight each other for supremacy. In theory, not that hard.

In reality, it's not that easy. That would mean Clans "don't mean anything" for a time, while loyalties are blurred and friends and allies decide to fight each other simply for the honor, glory and victory of their Order. It's possible, but not exactly plausible.

As far as what the Orders mean, Telona is more than correct, that too many people want to apply the old stereotypes and still adhere to what the Krath were. The Sith are not "pilots and politicians." Some of them are/were, but that doesn't require all of them to be. And when you try to assign new roles, new Order "personalities," and so on, too many people argue against it, too many people try to rebirth the old practices, and so on. Which is actually funny, considering the Orders have changed several times over the years. At one point, the Sith were those people who were members of both the Dark Brotherhood, and the Emperor's Hammer; the Krath were those members who were just part of the Brotherhood.

The dissolution of the Orders isn't likely to happen, but neither is giving out the OL titles to people. Even using them as NPCs isn't likely, because there's just no purpose for them. "The Consuls lead the Clans, were are communities of the members." "Oh, but then we need the OLs to guide the Orders. Because the Sith require different guidance than the Obelisk and Krath, and likewise between the other Orders. There's just too many differences, that we need OLs." "No we don't." "Well... then... we need the OLs because I'd like to be the KHP."

That's usually what it is. Someone just wants the title.


13-10-2006 14:15:20

If we do want to bring OLs as a NPC or something, I think they could be fictionally reduced to like the Pope or something. They hold no power, but are experts in the ways and rituals of their order and merely offer guidance to their order members.

If we don't want it to be an NPC, perhaps fictionally we can give the title (Reiterate: Only in the fictional world) to whoever the EP of the Sith, Krath, and Obelisk CORE exams are (presuming they are members of the order they are EP of), as these people would be assumed to be incredibly well-versed in their order's history and rituals and offer guidance in learning of their respective orders.

Sephiroth Kali

13-10-2006 16:58:10

Sith, I believe there is a use for them as NPC's. As I said earlier, if someone wanted access to the part of the Archives that contain our artifacts, it would make sense that they would go to the "KHP". That is written in the Codex, and it makes sence. Whats the point of having these artifacts if we can't use them.

What about giving the titles to people who already hold a similar position? The Headmaster could be the KHP, The GM could be the SHW, and the MAA could be the Obie leader (sorry, I don't remember the title!). I want to make it known however, that they should have no additional duties, however, for the sake of Role-playing, they could be used.


13-10-2006 17:21:18

Pfft, clans themselves don't use the artifacts they have. EPs don't exactly keep up to date on things. Case in point being the Krath history I took the time to update when I was KHP. The test itself was never updated until I think here recently when I gave that updated history to Anshar. It was up on krath.org until that website was taken down.

I'm not down with people just being given the title even if it's purely fictional. They didn't work for it like Alanna or Sith or Korras. I'm not too fond of just throwing it at some NPC either. If you must have someone to fictionally go to, the logical choice would be the GM since he is above all orders. That is also something people don't remember or understand cause they look at the dossier and just see Sith.

Sephiroth Kali

13-10-2006 19:30:46

Well, I certainly respect your opinion as former KHP and the DAT, but I still believe in the Order system and it's leaders. I am proud to be a Krath, and maybe all it means is that in the future, we should teach younger members to respect our history, all of it. When you spoke of the website going down, it's like a part of our hisory that has disapeared, possibly forever. I don't want that to happen. Maybe I'm just old fashioned though.


13-10-2006 20:51:53

Speaking of the "old" way, that's how it was when I came in; and it was very strict indeed. In fact, that's why I'm Krath; because of the order restrictions. In some ways, I wouldn't mind going back to that system, at least in part. Anyway, enough of that past for now.

Regarding the order leaders, if you're going to use them in fiction, use any of the former ones you'd like, but I would limit yourself to only those who are still at least somewhat active. So, for KHP, go with Telona, Alanna, or Arania. For SHW, Firefox or Sith. For OHC, Korras or...well, I'm trying to think of anothe one, but they're not coming to mind. In my mind, though, all of these people are still technically the "high" whatever of their order.

Also, in regards to some of the suggestions as to whom to "give" the titles to, the EPs of the Core exams won't get it. EPs tend to change fairly often (at least on average) and they're not always going to be a high ranking member. A DJK Obelisk High Commander just won't cut it.

Giving the titles to current DC members, such as myself, wouldn't work. Not all Headmasters are Krath; the Grandmaster is technically the Dark Lord of the Sith. And so on.

In all honesty, I don't think we should get rid of any orders. To be honest, I like mine a bit to much. As for dealing with "order" jumpers, I think there are a few solutions to that problem. The most obvious would be that you can only change your order once a year (and, if you do, your year starts over; another 365 days). Order changes are tracked on the dossier, so keeping track of it is not hard. Just because someone wins an RoS doesn't mean they should be an order leader; order champion maybe, but not an order leader.

Sephiroth Kali

14-10-2006 01:08:29

I could live with Using the Old ones, but they should be listed somewhere so that people know who they are and what capacity to use them in.


14-10-2006 07:44:54

OK then i just lost this conv completely


14-10-2006 11:01:43

Well once the big changes take place in the DB Compendium and the SA, you'll know who's held KHP from the very beginning to the very end. Along with, hopefully, the little history quip that took several months to dig up. It just takes time and some poking to get things done that need to be done.

Andan Taldrya Marshall

14-10-2006 17:49:11

The question comes down to one simple point: Are the Order Leaders needed in the day-to-day running of the DB.

Since the positions have been officially disolved we can say that the answer is no; the need to have a SHW, KHP and OHC as a member of the DC who oversaw the day-to-day operations of their respective orders ended when the order restrictions on platforms was lifted. Because the positions are not needed anymore there is also no need to have a person holding each position on a day to day basis. However, it is concievable that the positions may need to be used either in fiction or on a temp. basis if there was business that the entire order needed to handle as a group.

Solutions? If the positions are going to be used simply in fiction I don't see any problem with naming an NPC to the positions; it doesn't give any one member a special title that means nothing and you don't have everybody butchering the way that the character is written.

If we needed Order Leaders to represent their order in some business that involves the entire order then that's going to be something that's a short-term position, it makes no sence to have a member appointed to a perminant position with sporatic duties. If something like that were to happen then it'd be best for the order(s) to appoint someone themselves for however long the person was needed, with the understanding that they'd step down when the situation was over. This is something that I doubt will happen though, as I can only think of two situations where this would be needed: a feud between the entire orders (as was said earlier it would be very hard because of clan loyalties) and if the orders decided to bring a grevience against the DC or each other.

Besides these sitautions there is no need for people to hold the positions. If there's no need for it then we shouldn't do it.


17-10-2006 21:09:06

I agree with Bloodfyre. No need for false, fictional titles. Order Leaders are dead and gone, and let's keep it that way. Members here seem to do enough of that phoney title nonsense already. I think we probably have more Barons, Baronesses, Archdukes, and the like than there have ever been in the history of the British Empire.


18-10-2006 06:23:16

If you want but i still would like to have Order Leaders back again

Sephiroth Kali

18-10-2006 06:50:22

I think that we should introduce a poll to the membership , to have the OL as NPC's.

Tarax Kor

18-10-2006 13:23:19

Why? It's been decided - and with good reason - that Order Leaders aren't needed anymore. Neither as real people, nor as NPCs. Why argue the fact?


18-10-2006 21:49:40

Why? It's been decided - and with good reason - that Order Leaders aren't needed anymore. Neither as real people, nor as NPCs. Why argue the fact?

Because people want to attach fancy titles to enhance their own self-importance. End of story. Screw logic and rationale; "I want to be important!"


22-10-2006 22:45:10

Why? It's been decided - and with good reason - that Order Leaders aren't needed anymore. Neither as real people, nor as NPCs. Why argue the fact?

Getting rid of OLs was a bad decision. And the reason behind it wasnt very good. There have definately been less competitions as a result of not having Order Leaders anymore. And the Order message boards have completely died. Getting rid of OLs was a huge mistake and has done nothing but detract from the productivity of this organization. I think the OL positions should be restored... having NPCs fill the positions is stupid.


23-10-2006 23:37:40

Some of you who complain of people wanting to affix a title to themselves are guilty of the same crime. I look at your banners and see the titles you claim, whether they are self-appointed, or clan based and unrecognized by the brotherhood. These are no more significant than the proposal of the appointment of fictional OL for the purpose of enriching the experience here in the Brotherhood.

When I joined the Brotherhood, just at the end of the order restrictions, I chose Obelisk, believing the orders were for the fictional identification of you character, but latter learned I was limited to playing games I'd never heard of or seen before. So I switched to Krath due to my proficient writing abilities. I took pride in what my order stood for, because it stood for something, and that something was what the KHP made it.

The KHP was responsible for providing activities for the krath members, and upon the lifting the restrictions, the brotherhood as a whole. They were very successful in this. But I realize the Brotherhood practices a very efficient bureaucracy in which that which impedes progress is swiftly done away with, and replaced with a more efficient means, in this case, the tribunes.

The appointment of fictional titles, that would have no actual standing or obligations would only serve to empower the members of that order, and enrich the fictional reality we all claim to live in.

Telona, on your Banner, you claim to be the "Dark Angel of Tarentum", and I assume that is a significant title within your clan you earned, but it does not appear on your dossier. It would be the same with these fictional OL, they would wear the title for run-on, and fiction purposes, maybe even for participation in story events like Jacs updates in the GJW, but the titles of Obelisk High Commander, Krath High Priestess, and Sith High Warrior would never appear anywhere on their dossier. Furthermore, the title, I would assume go to the last bearer of the title, or someone who is deemed worthy of wearing it. So there would be no petty title grabbing, or self-promoting.

Sith Bloodfyre

24-10-2006 01:18:24

Let it go. 1) Some of you have no idea what you're talking about. 2) Some of you are going off in completely different tangents that you really have no business delving into. Let it go.