TFDG - Military Revisited

Yes, this is very long overdue, but Odium compiled what basically said in the Military thread before for us to talk about more specifically. Since it's been so long, I thought I'd bring this back before the group instead of the Summits to talk about, after all, they can talk here too.

Link to the first thread, for reference
- http://www.darkjedibrotherhood.com/forum/i...?showtopic=2086

Okay, and here is from Odium...


After going back through the Clan Military topic post-by-post, I have pulled eight(8) points that were at least somewhat settled upon. Here they are.

1)A possible Master/Student thing that ONLY affects RP(not the day to day stuff like a normal Master/student) This offers a way to clearly distinguish between "junior/senior" jedi, as Crix put it.

2)Assignment of different units(spec ops, fighter groups, artillery, heavy weapons, etc....) to members(possibly/probably as rewards) according to character.

3)Probably very lose Dark Jedi Commander(think; Clone Army and Jedi)...The Dark Jedi might not be IN the military, but would be able to command it(personal note: though the non-Sith orders would probably chose to not command(Sith=command/flight, while Obelisk=actually fight)...i dunno whatever) Also, promos for the military would be given for RP ONLY(winning an RP battle etc., not making a new website and such)

4)A ranking system for the Jedi that provides a clear indication to non-jedi of our roll, but is also very simple so that it is easy to implement and easy to keep going. Suggested: use the ranks in TIE fighter excluding Flight Cadet and Officer(Lt. and Cpt. for "junior"(Sub-DJK)jedi, and Commander and General for "senior"(DJK+)jedi)

5)A higher standard of what "basic training" is(i.e. Tal basic>normal basic), and a "Super training" of special/elite divisions.

6)Several military academies, based on the planet or on starship. Probably a Regular Academy on planet along with Spec Ops/Vehicular/MP, a Space combat academy located on a starship(probably the Dark Prophet), and an Officer Academy either on planet or on a starship, whichever is decided.

7)Fictional bios for military leaders, including one main commander(think Tarkin-esque) with ties to empire.

Somehow setup and set into motion our semi-implied inter-clan(spying on the others) intelligence system.


Okay, what do you like and not like first? What concepts here if any would you like to see developed? Let's don't go crazy and get down to writing a sentence back and forth about anything, let's try and keep this a good, beneficial discussion. =P

I like the idea of setting up academies for training. Perhaps for any kind of special forces whether it be space or land that we use the planet Kaltace since the description on it is vague. I know right now our planet and systems info is being redone so perhaps when that's final we could set up a flight academy on a moon or something. As for anything ground wise perhaps we can use Volcanus since it's harsh atmosphere would make our soldiers tougher.

I suppose an M/S deal just for RP purposes is ok, it would add some depth to a story. Ranks for jedi that aren't in the military shouldn't be something complicated. It's fairly safe to assume that jedi, no matter how experienced at battle, will have a lesser understanding of large scale combat and how it should be coordinated compaired to a general. I'm thinking that a jedi should have the rank of Commander. That would allow him/her to take a squad or two of troops along if they're going somewhere. Seeing as how we're dark jedi we focus more on the force than anything, but if we want some large scale commanders then perhaps we should have some of our people fictionally focus on becoming generals or admirals.

Setting up an interclan spying system would be a fun idea. Base it out of Karfur because fictionally who in their right minds would put their intel group at their HQ planet? Perhaps we can do some bribing of the enemies staff or hack into their droids or comp systems

Only thing I disagree with is the Sith as commanders only... Sith aren't commanders, they're the plotters, etc. They'd also focus on commanding the cap ships while Obelisk would command ground troops.

I did most of my arguing for this in the origional topic, but this is a good way to deal with the military aspect of the clan. I don't think that the Sith will be the only commanders though. I do think that people will more then likely command in their area of expertise though. For Obbies that happens to be ground combat and Sith happens to be fighter/cap ship stuff. I think that's where Duga was going more then just "sith command, obbies shoot people"

Other then that, it all looks great.

One question I have is, how would the ships on the Tal page be split up, for our pilots and so on?

I think the idea of Dark Jedi commanders would be interesting. That idea would certainly have helped in the Feud. The academies are also an interesting idea. The only concern I have is that now, even with the abolishment of Order-specific roles, the Krath are still kinda being left out of things.

What do you see the Krath as doing, Erin? Obelisk are the ground warriors, Sith are the space commanders, Krath would be charged with using the Force to aid either space or ground combat? For example: with battle meditation.

Not being a Krath I don't know what you guys would like to do/what would fit with a Krathly character. Any ideas?

The only thing I see making this way too complicated is the RP military ranks thing. Overall, the Consul is the Supreme Commander of the Taldryan Armed Forces, so he's the "general" PCON Lt Gen, the QUAs would be colonels, the AEDs Majors and so on.

To flesh out these ideas a lot of writing is going to be involved. A LOT.

Shad, interesting question. You're partially right about the role of the Krath as the "support personnel" of Taldryan's military - healing, organising logistics, that kind of thing. But I think we could put the breakdown of Order distinctions to good use here. Why not have Obelisk healers or Krath pilots? (I could just be saying this because I actually spent six of my nine years in the DB as a Sith.) In my Feud fiction piece, at one point I had started off writing myself as a commando. In another story, I'm an artillery officer - Dark Jedi Farseeing and mortars can be an explosive combination.

I don't actually have any concrete plans to get Order things changed around here, but I think it's work exploring further.

Well as a what do krath do....
Sticking up for the Krath:
- a naturally covert organisation would lend itself to spec ops intelligence gathering and subtlety. Obbys are the smash their way into an objestive and kill people kind of group where as Krath would deploy early, investigate with stealth and mind tricks and only small teams and try and get in and out without having to fight.
- battle tacticians: survey the field as advisors to the generals and fulfill other roles as bridge staff. Analysing the enemies attack patterns as the sith fly their missions as well as battle meditation to aid their brethren.
- communication encryption as well as slicing and decrypting comms from the enemy in an attempt to interfer with the enemy's instructions.

But though thats enough to add something for the Krath todo, I agree with the last comment... since we're all multi-order each jedi should be able todo whatever they want. We are brethren fighting for our clan not our order, and as such we should do every job we want to! We'll each have ideas what we'd like our character todo. And if a strike team has 3 obby 2 sith and 2 krath you get the martial expertise, the pilots/gunners in case we need to fly ships out, and the krath for research/planning and computer hacking.

If we are a multiorder djb, then the orders should be seen as our beliefs in the ture calling of the dark side, not role definitions

Betj

just other illustrations:
anakin/vader: obviously sith... "best pilot I've known", pod racing, boarding grievous' ship. As an obbie he really sucked at dueling with his saber: lost to Obi wan on mustafar (when he was theoretically most powerful), got beat by his son on the death star and surprised by his son's ability on bespin when Luke did a reasonable job kicking his ass considering he wasnt even really a jedi yet!

Palpatine: I reckon more a typical krathie: scheming to try to enforce his darkness without fighting. And his style of combat let him take down half the jedi council before mace kicked his ass.

Obi-wan: pretty niffty with his blade: darth maul, anakin (as vader) and yet crap flying.

My point is... they all had weaknesses (whether you agree with them or not) but still you've got to see they still do the other bits because of the mission. If as a Krathie Taldryan had dropped out of hyperspace and were fighting for their lives I'd want to fly even though I'm pants just to see if I can help by sheer weight of numbers

Our problem is that the majority of us came up through the DB with order restrictions. Sith are pilots. Obbies fight on the ground. Krath are weird religious-type people who read a lot of old books. Those restrictions are gone now so you can be a krath pilot or a sith ground fighter. I started out as a pilot so I've kept myself focusing on piloting in stories and ROs, even though I know my way around a lightsaber fairly well I'd much rather fly a TIE or command a cap ship.

Order restrictions are gone, so there's really no reason to expect people of a specific order to do a specific job; people can do whatever types of activity they want in the DB now so we should let them do whatever they want (within reason of course) within the fictional Tal army/navy.

Then that would have to be explored. People would need to develop their fictional characters enough to know what rule they would do. Switching to suit the situation isn't cool. As Betja said, I'd be a typical Obelisk. I can command ground troops and focus entirely on physical combat. Demolitions, covertness, etc = not my bag

hehe heee
subtle and shad ...
well you could make advantages for picking and sticking to a role.
Better ranks or something.... a young jedi who will state they only
want to be groung forces could be given control of 3 AT-STs of the
squads etc... Those who didnt want to pick because they had no
favoured niche would be lumped together as "strike team stuck
on the Orthanc" for example! ROFL

But I think setting up a link of mock "rank" and linking into the
possessions to reward activity has the advantage of locking in
young new members... and exciting pathetic older members (like
me )

I do agree with Lannie's old posting that in the standard military
we shouldn't have ranks... but if we made a RP "ranks" of Taldryan
it could work. So we create an organisation structure or perhaps
Taldryan order of battle to suggest where people are... It could also
really add to run-ons and help give members identity especially
given the advantage of the nos of possesians we have!!!!

We were really just basing the ranking scheme ala Episode 3. Obi-wan was given the rank of Jedi General, which gave him command over a normal military general in most situations. Anakin was his Lieutenant and even he aws higher in command than a normal general.

ah fair enough!

The ranks I was talking about would be very loose, more to designate that the Jedi in the clan had authority over the normal military and to differentiate between the Jedi who were in command and the Jedi who were had more authority then the normal troops but weren't the commanders.

hehe ok soz!

(still think it'd be a lil cool to assign the capital gains/ships to the command structure... hehe)

We can still do that. We already sort of do something like that with assigning specific ships to the CON/PCON and the house summits. We could change it up a bit to create a nice navy structure.

The entire fleet would be the Tal Home Guard, or something like that, with the CON as the Fleet Commander (Fleet Admiral or Admiral) and the PCON as the XO (VA/AD). Each house would have a few ships under its command that would make up a battle group; the Quaestor would be the Battle Group Commander (VA/RA) and the AED as the Battle Group XO (RA/COL). Then within each house there'd be a few ships that the QUA and AED would have the authority to give command of to members of their house as a RP reward.

Here's a possible break down of the fleet

Taldryan Home Guard:
VSD Dark Prophet (flagship): Hett Squadron (TIE Hunter x12) and Keirdagh Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
MTRNS Odin (not specificly attached to one BG and sent where ever it's needed)

Battle Group Ektrosis:
M/BCRS Leviathian (flagship): Hyperion Squadron (Hyperion Fighter x12)
M/FRG Suppressor: Valyorm Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12) and Katarn Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
M/CRV Darkstorm
A/FRG Praetorian
VAC Ravager

Battle Group Dinaari:
M/INT Orthanc (flagship): Cotelin Squadron (Scimitar bomber x6) and Spectre Squadron (A-Wing x6)
M/DREAD Dark Seraphim: Telaris Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
M/CRV Renegade
VAC Sinister
CGC Outcast

That gives each house 4 ships in addition to the ship that's already given to them (which I called the flagship, that doesn't have to stick). There's also the Odin that the CON can give out if he wants, it just keep the commander as an NPC (cause commanding a Transport isn't that great of a reward X-) ). In addition, command of the various fighter/bomber squads attached to the ships in each battle group could be given as rewards. Members can also be assigned to non-command positions on the ships and squads for further RP reality.

Oh, and for a logistical side note: if we buy any more fighters we're going to need to get an Escort Carrier. We can carry 3 more fighters on the Renegade but after that our fleet's fighter capasity is full. If we get an ESC I'd recommend attaching it to the the Home Guard and letting it float between the two houses depending on who needs the fighters at any given time (like how I have the Odin set up). The other option is to buy an ESC for each house and fill them both slowly as we buy more fighters.

The old order restrictions have created a stereotypical habit in us. We're still too focused on what they used to be instead of being able to see how combinations can be helpful.

Example, my DB character is a special ops, covert type. Think Splinter Cell/Delta Force. If we were to categorize him, he'd be an Obelisk. But if we classify the "covert" part as Krath, then he'd have some of that in there too. Thing is, he's not Krath

I think the prior history of our characters (fiction before they joined the DB) determines their order, even though those are largely defunct. We need to stop thinking of and going back to the order restrictions, its just going to paint us into a corner and limit our characters and the fiction. Combinations of the three is the wave of the future man.

WOW that was a lot of reading...(i just got all caught up on all of this)


Okay...only thing with the fleet break down, Crix...why do you guys(Ekky) get both Frigates :@
Switch the Praetorian/Suppressor with the Outcast and it works. Okay, I'm done whining.

I think this idea of command structuring works VERY well (once we figure out how to put it into action) Though, I don't know if we NEED to use official titles for the commanders(Fleet Admiral, XO, etc...) If the CON and PCON are on the Dark Prophet(which is kinda a given) and the QUA's take the House flagship's, it can trickle down after that.(probably AED's with the next biggest ship, probably the one of the Frigates each, and, I dare say, the ENV/RM's with the next smallest and after that actually award members with ship commands) Awards would probably have to stay somewhat close to developed characters (i.e. Crix, if now AED, would probably get a fighter squadron)

so yeah...

At first I had the Outcast and the Suppressor under the Home Guard, but Ekky needed more fighters, so I gave Ekky the Suppressor and Dinaari the Outcast. The two fleets are pretty much equal; the Orthanc is a hell of a ship, it could take on the VSD and have a chance at beating it.

If we were to switch ships there's no way in hell I'm giving up the Suppressor for the Outcast, that'd be a major reduction in firepower for Ekky. If you want the Suppressor that badly you're gonna have to give up either the Orthanc or the Dark Saraphim and the Outcast

I was just using the titles and ranks for an example, btw. Using all of that stuff would be way too complicated for what we're going for. The idea was to make a loose military structure for the clan, so in all likelyhood it'll be something like if you command a cap ship you're an admiral, if you command a large number of ground troops you're a general, if you command a wing of fighters you're a colonal, if you command a few squads of troops you're a major, if you command a squad of fighters you're a commander and if you command a squad of troops you're a sergeant. The XO thing would just designate the PCON/AED as the next person in charge if something happened to the CON/QUA (i.e. Chaos' ship gets knocked out in a RO and we can't get a hold of him, I take command of Ekky forces in the area until I hear from Chaos that he can command again or Duga comes to relieve me/appoints someone to relieve me).

The AEDs would get the choice, then, if they wanted to command one of the cap ships, fighters, or ground troops. Even though I was a fighter pilot for most of my DB life, I would most likely pick commanding a cap ship over dedicated fighter command because that's what I've been doing a lot more of lately. I still reserve one ship from Hyperion Squad as my personal fighter in the ROs though, and a lot of the time I will spend time in it, but I don't want to command fighters for the entire RO.

We can still do that.  We already sort of do something like that with assigning specific ships to the CON/PCON and the house summits.  We could change it up a bit to create a nice navy structure.

The entire fleet would be the Tal Home Guard, or something like that, with the CON as the Fleet Commander (Fleet Admiral or Admiral) and the PCON as the XO (VA/AD).  Each house would have a few ships under its command that would make up a battle group; the Quaestor would be the Battle Group Commander (VA/RA) and the AED as the Battle Group XO (RA/COL).  Then within each house there'd be a few ships that the QUA and AED would have the authority to give command of to members of their house as a RP reward.

Here's a possible break down of the fleet

Taldryan Home Guard:
VSD Dark Prophet (flagship): Hett Squadron (TIE Hunter x12) and Keirdagh Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
MTRNS Odin (not specificly attached to one BG and sent where ever it's needed)

Battle Group Ektrosis:
M/BCRS Leviathian (flagship): Hyperion Squadron (Hyperion Fighter x12)
M/FRG Suppressor: Valyorm Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12) and Katarn Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
M/CRV Darkstorm
A/FRG Praetorian
VAC Ravager

Battle Group Dinaari:
M/INT Orthanc (flagship): Cotelin Squadron (Scimitar bomber x6) and Spectre Squadron (A-Wing x6)
M/DREAD Dark Seraphim: Telaris Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
M/CRV Renegade
VAC Sinister
CGC Outcast

That gives each house 4 ships in addition to the ship that's already given to them (which I called the flagship, that doesn't have to stick).  There's also the Odin that the CON can give out if he wants, it just keep the commander as an NPC (cause commanding a Transport isn't that great of a reward  X-) ).  In addition, command of the various fighter/bomber squads attached to the ships in each battle group could be given as rewards.  Members can also be assigned to non-command positions on the ships and squads for further RP reality.

Oh, and for a logistical side note: if we buy any more fighters we're going to need to get an Escort Carrier.  We can carry 3 more fighters on the Renegade but after that our fleet's fighter capasity is full.  If we get an ESC I'd recommend attaching it to the the Home Guard and letting it float between the two houses depending on who needs the fighters at any given time (like how I have the Odin set up).  The other option is to buy an ESC for each house and fill them both slowly as we buy more fighters.



Well, I do agree with one thing Jive said about if we really wanted to go with each point there this could get complicated and take a lot of effort. Like the original points #6 and #7 are nice, but that can be done by those that want to for what they command or what their House has under control. Bascially this can be something that I'd leave to the House leaders to work on or have others do for their ships if they wanted to.

As for what Crix has above, I'm cool with that. It's a nice setup. And when we buy or are awarded new ships they can go to the Taldryan Home Guard and can be awarded to a House for say doing so well in whatever competition we may have gotten in from, or even have a competition between the Houses to get a new ship. I like this for handling our Ships and the use of them in the Fictional Arena...

Fleet Commander and Fleet Admiral - Consul
Executive Officer and Admiral - Proconsul

Battle Group Commander and Vice Admiral - Quaestor
Battle Group Executive Officer and Rear Admiral - Aedile

Those given command of a Capital Ship would be Captains.

Those given the command of a Fighter Squadron would be Lieutenants.

Taldryan Home Guard:
VSD Dark Prophet
-- Hett Squadron (TIE Hunter x12)
-- Keirdagh Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
MTRNS Odin

Battle Group Ektrosis:
M/BCRS Leviathian
-- Hyperion Squadron (Hyperion Fighter x12)
M/FRG Suppressor
-- Valyorm Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
-- Katarn Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
A/FRG Praetorian
M/CRV Darkstorm
VAC Ravager

Battle Group Dinaari:
M/INT Orthanc
-- Cotelin Squadron (Scimitar bomber x6)
-- Spectre Squadron (A-Wing x6)
M/DREAD Dark Seraphim
-- Telaris Squadron (TIE Interceptor x12)
CGC Outcast
M/CRV Renegade
VAC Sinister

I like that. We can easily setup a list of command and assigned locations attached to the Possessions page. The other thing I was wondering about is the Ground Forces, do we want to separate that or just keep it as is? The way I see the Ground stuff is our non-jedi troops handle most of that unless some of our jedi want to get involved and would obviously have command over the non-jedi troops.

Okay, so I guess I didn't post this last night when I wrote it, so it ends up being kinda redundant, but there are points in it that I don't want to try and rewrite so...here's the whole original post...a day late :-p

Yes, I realized that loosing the Suppressor would be horrible for Ekky when I looked more closely......However, that's why I said Praetorian/Suppressor....Either one would be fine, so since ya'll need the Suppressor, then the Praetorian will do(I just like frigates...there an enormous part of any fleet and if both houses can have one, I say they both should...I don't care which one :-p)
anyway...

Okay...I see what you're sayin with the whole just using the ranks as examples. Okay then, that works for me. It works, makes sense, and is in no way complicated to implement. Anybody else have more? If not then I think at least the Navy part has been reasonably settled. Though, we should probably discuss/decide how we'd tell who was in charge of/rewarded what(maybe a new "awards" page...or just note the "commander" in the OOB itself. i.e. "Hett Squadron-Commander "Dark Jedi")

Someone asked about the ground forces, the way I figured we would just divide these up would be among the Planets if we need to.. something like this..

Karufr Ground Forces

-1x Imperial MPDSL
-1x SPHA-T Heavy Artillery Turbolaser
-1x HAVr A9 Floating Fortress
-1x Imperial 1-H-Class Repulsortank
-100x OOM Series Combat Droid / 4x OOM Command Officer Series Combat
-2x SD-10 Series Infantry Droid
-4x Droideka Series Battle Droid
-3x STAP
-1x AT-AT
-5x AT-ST
-2x HAET-221 Drop Ship
-1x LAVr QH-7 Chariot

Taruma Ground Forces

-1x Imperial MPDSL
-1x Imperial 1-H-Class Repulsortank
-1x Imperial 1-M-Class Repulsortank
-100x OOM Series Combat Droid / 2x OOM Command Officer Series Combat
-1x MTT
-2x AT-AA
-2x AT-AT
-5x AT-ST
-3x Hoverscout
-4x HAET-221 Drop Ship
-1x ULAV

Altur Ground Forces

-1x Imperial MPDSL
-1x Imperial 1-H-Class Repulsortank
-1x Imperial 1-M-Class Repulsortank
-100x OOM Series Combat Droid / 2x OOM Command Officer Series Combat
-1x MTT
-5x TIE Crawler
-2x AT-AT
-5x AT-ST
-3x Hoverscout
-4x HAET-221 Drop Ship
-1x ULAV

Volcanus Ground Forces

-None

Kaltace Ground Forces

-None

*pokes head in*

Any chance of reopening this discussion? I'm intrigued.

I took a quick gander at what we've got posted so far and compiled it, which Ben has nicely uploaded to the Tal domain here. What does everyone think?

Also, to revisit the idea of Krath being all stealthy and special-ops-ish, I'm all for that. B)

>_< what a wasteland this place is