Regarding The New Promotion Requirements

Kaek

13-10-2008 22:50:00

For discussing the new promotion requirements - go! O-)

Hel-Pa Sklib

14-10-2008 00:02:16

Best. Thing. Ever.

No more ambiguities to deal with!

Anubis

14-10-2008 07:32:31

Will the current stuff you have completed count towards these requirements, or do we start from scratch?

Kaek

14-10-2008 09:04:58

The current stuff you have completed counts towards these requirements so long as they're a part of the requirement. So, for example, if you've already earned 25 CFs in total, you don't need to go earn 25 more to meet that requirement.

Werdna Elbee

14-10-2008 10:02:34

It's such a pity that this had to be done, taking it out of clan's hands, and in an ideal world I don't like this. I'd prefer some variation between clans, because it brings variation in the focus and the membership of each clan

...but we all know why it had to be done, so it is done.


First of all, I think the APP to NOV should be a lot easier. Just emailing in should do it. A remarkable amount of members don't even bother doing that so you may as well keep it simple.

Second, I don't like the time delays between promotions. I think the majority of the time a member will need that much time to achieve the other tasks anyway, but if they do it in less then well done! Perhaps it could be changed to a time delay OR 5 rather than 3 tasks (or similar).

Finally, I think the JH to the DJK tasks should be decided by the clan. It's a big jump, and the goal for many, and I think that step will be the difference required to keep the clans different.

Phoenix dTana

14-10-2008 11:13:26

Though I think the time requirements should be worked on in special circumstances, awesome work otherwise.

Chaos fails.

Tarax Kor

14-10-2008 11:31:25

While these requirements/guidelines do seem a little tough, many people (Werdna) have to realize that they're not final. This is just a first step towards making sure that there's somewhat of a balanced system across the board. I'm quite sure that the MAA's office will hand some of the 'control' as it were back to the Clans, once the Clans realize that it really is inappropriate to have their promotion requirements be idiotically different from each other "just cuz".

And yes, it seems tough. But people need to learn to suck it up. We may not retain as much members as we'd like, but the ones that do work through the requirements are the competent ones we'd rather keep, anyway.

Timbal

14-10-2008 12:42:31

Practical question here instead of whines... ;)

Are the requirements cumulative or per level?

Example, say Newbie_A got a merit medal as a Novice, does it count towards the medal requirements from GRD to JH? Or does he have to earn a merit medal after he became a GRD?

I'm assuming it's the latter case, but I'm double-checking. ;)

Thanks dudes!

Kaek

14-10-2008 12:52:31

in your example of a merit medal being obtained when someone is a Novice, that merit medal could be used for the later merit medal requirements. However, when something (non-merit medal) is 'used' for a promotion, then it can't be used again unless the requirements say otherwise...like the total CFs requirement.

Merit medals are a rather tricky subject because it seems stupid to deny someone from using one if they have it. Currently, the system is setup to encourage people to give more merit medals at a lower rank - it also attempts to more clearly separate the medal system from the promotion system.

If someone has a merit medal, I don't mind it being applicable to the requirements at both levels (so if you have a DC, it meets the requirement for JH and for DJK) but that's only because right now, no one gives lower-ranking members merit medals - they prefer to give promotions. Make no mistake about it: a JH or DJK promotion is NOT equivalent to giving a DC out. If people start giving out more lower level merit medals to newer members, I may change the requirement on merit medals being cumulative - but that hasn't happened yet.

Werdna Elbee

14-10-2008 12:55:30

many people (Werdna) have to realize that they're not final.


I know they aren't final, or else my comments would have just been me whistling into the wind.

Am I confused as to the point of this discussion?

Timbal

14-10-2008 13:06:31

in your example of a merit medal being obtained when someone is a Novice, that merit medal could be used for the later merit medal requirements. However, when something (non-merit medal) is 'used' for a promotion, then it can't be used again unless the requirements say otherwise...like the total CFs requirement. et. al.



Thanks Kaek, that works out really well in the favor of all Journeymen!

I just realized that we need a thumbs-up smiley. ;)

Tsingtao

14-10-2008 13:30:44

A couple of questions questions have come up from our Clan mailing list so I'll just add it here.

Logon to IRC

I think this needs to be expanded to say which channel. I'm sure everyone here is intelligent enough to figure out it means the clan/house channel or something like that, but it should still be clarified.

Communicate using IRC.

Same thing here. We should specify the channel here. I think that will happen but you never know.

Begin writing your characterís wiki article[/]

How much information should there be entered to quantify this as completed. Are we going to be looking for the file size, the content, a work in progress, etc?

Derev

14-10-2008 14:56:40

The two JH items that say if members don't get the assignment within a week of being promoted to Jedi Hunter - you should really place the burden on the member i.e. "If you are not given this task within one week of requesting it, contact the MAA..." especially with the second one, since its not something the member is required to do.

Also-the items that say House Summit or Master- I think at least a few of the more difficult ones should explicitly say House Summit OR Master - it wouldn't be the first time in the DB that a member "helped" another member by going super easy on their trials, if we do as stated, that provides a pretty big check. (EDIT: What I mean is, make it so a single member can not get EVERY task from a Master, the House SUmmit has to provide at least 1-2 of them).

Also, in the trials, it says things like "IRC communication should be.." and "Order Core Exam should be.." - what does should mean? Thats just fishy, and some people are going to use it to prevent promotions while others are going to completely ignore them. Either make them part of a requirement (which you arent silly enough to do), or don't use them at all.

Artificial timelimits...I really, and I can't put my finger on it, dont think that 4 weeks for PRT especially sounds right, and Im still not liking 6 weeks at GRD..I realize most members take that long anyway, but that can be restrictive as well.

I might have missed this..are the competition requirements cumulative, or is that at each rank? If its cumulative, they're good, but if thats at each rank, that's excessive quite a bit. 33 Competitions, Im sure most of the Dark Council hasn't participated in 33 competitions.

Again, with the 15 pages of character fiction and a final fifteen page fiction..thats a LOT of writing for someone who dosent like writing, yet is not a gamer, so is 15 pages of character fiction cumulative since the time you've joined the DB, or do you need to stop and write a 15 page fiction? I'm not sure where you pulled these from, but most people in the DB don't write 15 page documents like they're nothing..for you two have them listed twice in the final set of DJK requirements is kinda excessive.

Macron Sadow

14-10-2008 15:14:13

My 3 cents:

Overall, a good idea. Nice to see some standardization, that will stop complainers. Well done.


"The two JH items that say if members don't get the assignment within a week of being promoted to Jedi Hunter - you should really place the burden on the member i.e. "If you are not given this task within one week of requesting it, contact the MAA..." especially with the second one, since its not something the member is required to do."

- Gotta agree here.

"Also-the items that say House Summit or Master- I think at least a few of the more difficult ones should explicitly say House Summit OR Master - it wouldn't be the first time in the DB that a member "helped" another member by going super easy on their trials, if we do as stated, that provides a pretty big check. (EDIT: What I mean is, make it so a single member can not get EVERY task from a Master, the House SUmmit has to provide at least 1-2 of them)."

-Ditto.

Artificial time limits:
I don't like these. While some limit is good, all this does is discourage people from busting their tails. If they manage to really kick @ss and do the stuff quick, why punish them? Some smaller delay would be fine, but the current ones are a bit draconian for my taste.
I could see a longer one for JH-DJK.

Kaira Rohana

14-10-2008 15:41:52

I was looking at this and going over what I have done in the last 4 months. Now no one should ever go off of what I have done because I do things quickly. The thing is if you look at the times I shouldnt even be where I am right now if we are going by those times you gave. Of couse i would have finshed all the work in a week or two then sit around waiting for time to pass. Not every one is like me how ever.

Since joining I have entered 36 contests. that is if my count is right... That being said I wanted to know something. Some contests that are put up have more then one part since each part gets you a medal dose it count as one or two contests? I would think that it was two different contests just under the saem name with two parts. Just wondering how ever.

Lots of things have been raised about this my only thought when reading them other then the time thing was that dosent this take away the point of having a master at times? If you have a list of things to do what good is it to have a master giving you tasks? I may be missing the point all together yet I am just wonering this fact.

Alright all done now you guys have fun with this. It is intersting to say the least.

Kir

14-10-2008 17:31:36

Derev said: "Im sure most of the Dark Council hasn't participated in 33 competitions."

I can guarantee that Sarin, Muz, Kaek, Jac, and myself have participated in far more than 33 competitions. I'd be willing to bet that Jac and myself have participated in more competitions than a majority of people in this club, most likely we've created more than most people have ever competed in. A competition doesn't have to be "write an epic 100 page fiction" - a simple caption comp counts. Getting up to 30 competitions isn't that tough, especially since our entire club is based around competitions. And congrats to Kara on reaching 36.

As for the time requirements - these were something we brought back specifically to as a counter to people who shoot up to DJK ridiculously quick. The problem with that is they get to DJK really fast...and then they find out it takes months to get to EQ1 and they quit. We want people to slowly get used to spending more time at each rank, and understand that this isn't just about fulfilling a checklist, it's about expanding their knowledge of the DB as a whole and becoming a more and more productive member of the club.

Tirano

14-10-2008 18:05:00

Same as Werdna, APP to NOV is a bit to much, cut it down to just create character history and email a leader or just the later.

Apart from that it looks cool.

Derev

14-10-2008 20:34:56

Derev said: "Im sure most of the Dark Council hasn't participated in 33 competitions."

I can guarantee that Sarin, Muz, Kaek, Jac, and myself have participated in far more than 33 competitions.† I'd be willing to bet that Jac and myself have participated in more competitions than a majority of people in this club, most likely we've created more than most people have ever competed in.† A competition doesn't have to be "write an epic 100 page fiction" - a simple caption comp counts.† Getting up to 30 competitions isn't that tough, especially since our entire club is based around competitions.† And congrats to Kara on reaching 36.

As for the time requirements - these were something we brought back specifically to as a counter to people who shoot up to DJK ridiculously quick.† The problem with that is they get to DJK really fast...and then they find out it takes months to get to EQ1 and they quit.† We want people to slowly get used to spending more time at each rank, and understand that this isn't just about fulfilling a checklist, it's about expanding their knowledge of the DB as a whole and becoming a more and more productive member of the club.



Kir, I didn't meant to attack the DC. I just see a lot of Equite+ members who dont have that many..

As for the time requirements, I wholly agree thats a problem, but we removed time requirements for very good reasons as well. Its one of those catch-22 things, if anything, there needs to be an unwritten flexibility.

Derev

14-10-2008 20:40:34



Lots of things have been raised about this my only thought when reading them other then the time thing was that dosent this take away the point of having a master at times?† If you have a list of things to do what good is it to have a master giving you tasks? I may be missing the point all together yet I am just wonering this fact.†

Alright all done now you guys have fun with this.† It is intersting to say the least.



CNS just recently had a problem with this. We allowed for Masters and House/Clan summits to provide 'minor' and 'major' tasks at various point. It came to our attention that what people were giving for these tasks was wildly different, thus some members were having to work A LOT harder for the same promotion.

William Archaon Darkfire

14-10-2008 20:58:46

I'm a Jedi Hunter, and I've never had to do any of these requirements before. Fo me, most of thme are just out of my reach. I never had to earn and clusters of fire to move on, so I can't shoot for 50 of em, I'm still working on #1. The 15 page fiction, that's ridiculous. I don't have the patience or the time to do that. 6 weeks seems excessive for how long u have to be at the rank. The tasks will take forever as it is, so if you finish early, you shouldn't have to wait to be promoted. You did what you had to, so why wait?

Like I said, this is the first time I've had to do these requirements, and a LOT of them are really only realistic if you've been using theses requirements from the start. All in all, I love the idea of requirements, I like having a list of stuff to do that says, here it is, do this, do that, you're done. Makes it easier for me. But these tasks, are just too difficult. Each task is very difficult, and for a lot of them, you gotta do multiple of that task (50 in the case of the clusters of fire)

For someone who has gotten all of his promotions pretty much from the SA, this is just too much...

RevengeX

14-10-2008 21:38:13

I actually like the time requirements idea. Perhaps it's because I'm no longer a Journeyman and can therefore laugh at them, but maybe it's also because I don't want to see people shun the "real world" in order to earn a promotion here. Our Journeymen should be trying harder to pass the 6th grade instead of trying to get that lightsaber. Time requirements allow people to spread out their activity over a long period of time, i.e. maintain outstanding activity levels for a longer period of time rather than having one large spike. Being able to maintain a high activity level is much more difficult than being active one week and dead the next.

As far as the promotion requirements for Apprentice to Novice, the words "(Basically an activity that shows that you are active and ready to proceed)" should be noted, memorized, and, if you have trouble with comprehension, please ask that Magic 8 ball you have on your desk.

If you don't like to write... don't force yourself to endure such pain? That's why the requirements are written to be fairly flexible. We don't want people torturing themselves in order to earn a promotion; we want people to have fun doing what they want to do. If your House/Clan Summit or Master wants to impose an arduous task on you out of spite or for another reason, that's something between you guys.

If you think that this is too much, as Tarax said, "suck it up".

If House/Clan Summits or Masters are assigning topics that vary in the entirely subjective field of "difficulty," make sure that each member of your House/Clan Summit and each Master knows what kind of tasks they should be assigning. It would also be a good idea to make sure that all tasks are sent through and approved by the Clan Summit/PTB, so that, even though it may seem like a congested bureaucracy, there are people looking at the tasks objectively.

To people who wonder whether the Master-Student Programs are going to collapse like a concrete and steel bridge with Phoenix jumping on it, please note that these requirements specifically say that tasks from either the House Summit or your Master must be completed. If you have ever served in a House Summit for a time, you know that you would want Masters to help ease the burden off of your own shoulders when it comes to new member development. Therefore, and in that capacity, Masters are beneficial and cherished by the whole world.

And that's all I can address at the moment.

Good job, Dark Council/other people who helped.

Anshar

15-10-2008 00:08:53

I'm going to start with two comments, and if people say "well, duh" or "I didn't misread it," then so be it.

First off, the requirement (note: singular, not plural) for APP to NOV is just one basic activity. It gives a two ideas of what one can do, but you don't have to do both.

Secondly, every other rank has the "must do" section followed by a list of things you get to choose X number from. Just to state this very clearly for anyone who can't or won't read: YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING ON THE LIST.
If the list still gives you trouble, make certain Kaek knows about it, and make certain your direct leaders know about it. Changes can and will be made as flaws are discovered, or new things come out.

Those two things aside, I would encourage every member to keep records of what they participate in, how they do, and what they do in any positions they hold. If nothing else, it is good practice for real life.

Kaek

15-10-2008 00:37:16

I'll respond to the other earlier posts tomorrow but I just wanted to say that Anshar is 100% correct

Impetus

15-10-2008 06:37:50

I like the requirements, it brings the difficulty and the time required back up closer to what it was like when I got to DJK about 3 years ago.

Only thing I have to say is the time requirements are a little short, especially on JH - DJK. 6 Weeks? That hardly prepares people for the months waiting for the Equite promotion to come. I'd say 2 months at minimum.

Another thing, is it '15 pages of fiction' or 'a 15 page fiction'? I think the first is probably better, if someone can write 3 5 page stories it will be more accessible than 1 15 page one, and there's the same volume of writing involved.

Hel-Pa Sklib

15-10-2008 12:07:31

Echoing Anshar's statements, the most important thing here is flexibility. In the Air Force we say "flexibility is the key to air power," and I believe that is 100% true when applied to the DB as well. This system is designed to tailor to the individual and not force people to do things they don't want. Sure we'd like people to try something other than rack up a hundred CF's in a week, because that doesn't really prove anything to our office.

A Journeyman promotion is not what it used to be. Before, it generally was "okay he's super active let's promote him." That *should* be what merit medals are for. Instead, promotions signify an understanding of how the Brotherhood operates and how you yourself fit in to the grand scheme of everything. It's the reason why we require the DB Basics course at such an early rank. Newcomers should not be asking questions like "where are the gaming servers listed" at the rank of PRT... they should know that or at LEAST know how to use their resources and find out.

I'm also a huge advocate of time requirements. As many people have said in this thread, skyrocketing through the ranks doesn't help anyone. I've had instances where people get promoted to PRT, then GRD two or three days later... and that should never happen. It is essential that Journeymen understand WHY they did the things they did to earn that next promotion instead of simply DOING them. It's one thing to go take the ACC Initiates Exam and copy paste the notes and change some words around. As a Trainer for some time, I was amazed by how little people that had ranks like GRD and JH knew of how the ACC worked. All they wanted was to qualify and earn that requirement to get promoted.

Perhaps my favorite part of the new system is the lack of extreme ambiguities. I don't have to scratch my head anymore when I see a promotion request and think "...what?" This streamlines everything so really all we have to do is compare the recommendation with the guidelines, end of story. This eliminates me denying a promotion because I have no frakking clue what's going on and get general statements like "they are active and a regular on IRC," which mean absolutely nothing to me. Attention to detail is the most important thing when writing a rec, and I cannot stress that enough.

Vai

15-10-2008 14:28:29

only one comment or question, but do house level leadership positions count for any requirements? for example I am the RM Cestus of Tarentum. Does my service time count?

GRD Vai Azexel
Rollmaster
Cestus of Tarentum

Derev

15-10-2008 20:10:06

only one comment or question, but do house level leadership positions count for any requirements?† for example I am the RM Cestus of Tarentum.† Does my service time count?

GRD Vai Azexel
Rollmaster
Cestus of Tarentum



Thats a good question. A lot of trials I've seen had at least an option for leadership to count towards the trials. I'd almost suggest one of the final "pick 3" on the JH trials to be "serve X ammount of time as a BTL+"

practical leadership is something we should reward, IMHO

Tarax Kor

16-10-2008 00:23:54

Roll Master is not the same as BTL, AED, or QUA. As far as I know, it serves no actual role in the hierarchy of the House or Clan Summits. My point holds even more weight since not all Clans utilize the Roll Master position, therefore you can't use it equally across the board.

However, I will concede to your point that positions such as BTL and AED (maybe even QUA, if some Clan Summit appoints a JH or lower to the position) should be considered. But not just in the sense of "was person X ever in a leadership spot, or for how long?", but also "how did person X perform in said leadership spot?"

smoke20

16-10-2008 08:37:42

I'd almost suggest one of the final "pick 3" on the JH trials to be "serve X ammount of time as a BTL+"


Id normally not post, and I'm not trying to offend...but putting this into the list may not be the best idea however this is just a opinion. I mean, not everyone wants to lead a house, battle team or clan, and having this as a requirement even if its just one of a few shouldn't be added. Some people still look at a Battle Team, House summit or Clan summit as a job that can possibly lead to losing the fun aspect of this club. Just remember that not everyone here is a born leader, or may even wish to pursue in the lines of leading but some may wish to also. Just my opinion of course. :P

Kaek

17-10-2008 00:09:11

I'm going to respond to a lot of what has been said. Here ya'll go:

A couple of questions questions have come up from our Clan mailing list so I'll just add it here.
Logon to IRC
I think this needs to be expanded to say which channel. I'm sure everyone here is intelligent enough to figure out it means the clan/house channel or something like that, but it should still be clarified.
Communicate using IRC.
Same thing here. We should specify the channel here. I think that will happen but you never know.
Begin writing your characterís wiki article
How much information should there be entered to quantify this as completed. Are we going to be looking for the file size, the content, a work in progress, etc?

Logging onto IRC basically means getting on IRC and actually communicating with DB members. You are correct in that it means go into your Clan channel.

As to the Wiki article, originally the requirement stated that you should ďWrite your characterís wiki article.Ē But this is asking far too much Ė most people are not even remotely close to being finished with their wiki article (Iím not). Therefore, I changed it to the way it is now. Iíll probably seek to clarify it a bit in the next revision but basically it means make a good faith effort to begin working on your wiki article. Put down an outline; put down some basic character information; etc. There isnít really an exact way to describe this but I think most leaders can judge reasonably for themselves.


The two JH items that say if members don't get the assignment within a week of being promoted to Jedi Hunter - you should really place the burden on the member i.e. "If you are not given this task within one week of requesting it, contact the MAA..." especially with the second one, since its not something the member is required to do.

I agree Ė this will be changed in the first revision.

Also-the items that say House Summit or Master- I think at least a few of the more difficult ones should explicitly say House Summit OR Master - it wouldn't be the first time in the DB that a member "helped" another member by going super easy on their trials, if we do as stated, that provides a pretty big check. (EDIT: What I mean is, make it so a single member can not get EVERY task from a Master, the House SUmmit has to provide at least 1-2 of them).

Iím not going to split the authority here because I donít think thatís helpful. However, requiring the tasks to have cursory approval from the House Summit might not be a bad idea. Iíll consider it.

Also, in the trials, it says things like "IRC communication should be.." and "Order Core Exam should be.." - what does should mean? Thats just fishy, and some people are going to use it to prevent promotions while others are going to completely ignore them. Either make them part of a requirement (which you arent silly enough to do), or don't use them at all.

Thatís us just being lazy in formatting. Those arenít so much concrete requirements for that promotion but help define the Ďstandard of activityí that we talk about in the introduction. So if it says that you should be using IRC, it means that if you can (i.e., no technical problems), you should be using IRC regularly or as often as you have time to. Same thing with the Order Exams: it should have been done at some point prior.

Artificial timelimits...I really, and I can't put my finger on it, dont think that 4 weeks for PRT especially sounds right, and Im still not liking 6 weeks at GRD..I realize most members take that long anyway, but that can be restrictive as well.

Weíll evaluate time limits after the requirements have been in place long enough. They may be adjusted slightly if we encounter problems.

I might have missed this..are the competition requirements cumulative, or is that at each rank? If its cumulative, they're good, but if thats at each rank, that's excessive quite a bit. 33 Competitions, Im sure most of the Dark Council hasn't participated in 33 competitions.

These are cumulative. If we determine that itís too easy to get this, we may adjust it or make it non-cumulative.

Again, with the 15 pages of character fiction and a final fifteen page fiction..thats a LOT of writing for someone who dosent like writing, yet is not a gamer, so is 15 pages of character fiction cumulative since the time you've joined the DB, or do you need to stop and write a 15 page fiction? I'm not sure where you pulled these from, but most people in the DB don't write 15 page documents like they're nothing..for you two have them listed twice in the final set of DJK requirements is kinda excessive.

The 15 page fiction requirement is definitely cumulative. If it wasnít, Iíd be asking people to write a ridiculous amount of fiction. The idea is that if you are a fiction writer, you can complete the fiction requirement at each step as you go up the promotion ladder. So, there is a 5 page requirement lower down and then you build on that to get to 10 and then you build on that to get to 15. So the 15 page requirement is cumulative.

I was looking at this and going over what I have done in the last 4 months. Now no one should ever go off of what I have done because I do things quickly. The thing is if you look at the times I shouldnt even be where I am right now if we are going by those times you gave. Of couse i would have finshed all the work in a week or two then sit around waiting for time to pass. Not every one is like me how ever.

Since joining I have entered 36 contests. that is if my count is right... That being said I wanted to know something. Some contests that are put up have more then one part since each part gets you a medal dose it count as one or two contests? I would think that it was two different contests just under the saem name with two parts. Just wondering how ever.


Pretty much the way I look at this is if you can get a crescent for it (and I mean a competitive crescent, not a lame participation crescent [which I am now disallowing anyway]), itís a competition. So say you had a feud and there were 5 events. Each event you can earn a crescent. Those are 5 competitions.

Lots of things have been raised about this my only thought when reading them other then the time thing was that dosent this take away the point of having a master at times? If you have a list of things to do what good is it to have a master giving you tasks? I may be missing the point all together yet I am just wonering this fact.

Most people have no idea how to do a lot of this. A master helps guide you through these and can give you the tasks you need towards the end.

I'm a Jedi Hunter, and I've never had to do any of these requirements before. Fo me, most of thme are just out of my reach. I never had to earn and clusters of fire to move on, so I can't shoot for 50 of em, I'm still working on #1. The 15 page fiction, that's ridiculous. I don't have the patience or the time to do that. 6 weeks seems excessive for how long u have to be at the rank. The tasks will take forever as it is, so if you finish early, you shouldn't have to wait to be promoted. You did what you had to, so why wait?

Like I said, this is the first time I've had to do these requirements, and a LOT of them are really only realistic if you've been using theses requirements from the start. All in all, I love the idea of requirements, I like having a list of stuff to do that says, here it is, do this, do that, you're done. Makes it easier for me. But these tasks, are just too difficult. Each task is very difficult, and for a lot of them, you gotta do multiple of that task (50 in the case of the clusters of fire)

For someone who has gotten all of his promotions pretty much from the SA, this is just too much...


Honestly I canít say much to this except that if youíre currently at certain rank, most of these should already be met or partially met. If theyíre not, we probably shouldnít have promoted you. Doing SA courses alone should not ever get you up to DJK (although it would for a few of the lower ranks). 50 CFs may actually be a bit too high: but weíll consider it as time goes back.

If House/Clan Summits or Masters are assigning topics that vary in the entirely subjective field of "difficulty," make sure that each member of your House/Clan Summit and each Master knows what kind of tasks they should be assigning. It would also be a good idea to make sure that all tasks are sent through and approved by the Clan Summit/PTB, so that, even though it may seem like a congested bureaucracy, there are people looking at the tasks objectively.

I wrote above in response to Derevís post that I think weíll probably have tasks be approved by both the Master and the House Summit. As to the difficulty of the tasks, I expect a lot of Masters and summit members to email me with their ideas for a task and ask me if itís sufficient. Feel free to do this. Hopefully, as this goes on, people will learn what is ideal and wonít have to ask me anymore. If we donít really get to a customary standard with these tasks, we may adjust the requirement.

To people who wonder whether the Master-Student Programs are going to collapse like a concrete and steel bridge with Phoenix jumping on it, please note that these requirements specifically say that tasks from either the House Summit or your Master must be completed. If you have ever served in a House Summit for a time, you know that you would want Masters to help ease the burden off of your own shoulders when it comes to new member development. Therefore, and in that capacity, Masters are beneficial and cherished by the whole world.

Yes :P

Only thing I have to say is the time requirements are a little short, especially on JH - DJK. 6 Weeks? That hardly prepares people for the months waiting for the Equite promotion to come. I'd say 2 months at minimum.

The goal with these time requirements is to let a very active member get to DJK within 6 months. Thatís how the system currently stands. A lot of members want the time requirements lowered and some want them increased. InterestingÖ :P

Another thing, is it '15 pages of fiction' or 'a 15 page fiction'? I think the first is probably better, if someone can write 3 5 page stories it will be more accessible than 1 15 page one, and there's the same volume of writing involved.

Itís 15 pages total.

only one comment or question, but do house level leadership positions count for any requirements? for example I am the RM Cestus of Tarentum. Does my service time count?

RM time wonít count: the duties of a RM vary from Clan to Clan and some Clans donít even use them. But I feel like the duties of a BTL, AED or QUA should probably be rewarded. Unfortunately, I didnít include that here because I think itís unfair to require everyone to be a leader. I suppose having adequate service as a leader might suffice for one of the Clan/House tasks Ė but Iím not yet decided. We will give this more thought.

Id normally not post, and I'm not trying to offend...but putting this into the list may not be the best idea however this is just a opinion. I mean, not everyone wants to lead a house, battle team or clan, and having this as a requirement even if its just one of a few shouldn't be added. Some people still look at a Battle Team, House summit or Clan summit as a job that can possibly lead to losing the fun aspect of this club. Just remember that not everyone here is a born leader, or may even wish to pursue in the lines of leading but some may wish to also. Just my opinion of course.

Yessir Ė thatís why I didnít include the requirement.

Keep the comments coming, everyone. I think if there was one thing to be gleaned from my response itís that everything is ADJUSTABLE.

I will make some clarification revisions shortly.

Anshar

17-10-2008 06:05:45

Here's a question brought to me by one of my members. And though I'm certain is has been addressed somewhere, I can't recall it, can't find it, and I've got to leave for work.

Do competitions with multiple events (GJWs being the most extreme example) count as just one competition, or does each individual event count?

I have a decent idea of what the answer will be, but Kaek can do his MAA-thing for all to see.

Derev

17-10-2008 08:55:11

Here's a question brought to me by one of my members. And though I'm certain is has been addressed somewhere, I can't recall it, can't find it, and I've got to leave for work.

Do competitions with multiple events (GJWs being the most extreme example) count as just one competition, or does each individual event count?

I have a decent idea of what the answer will be, but Kaek can do his MAA-thing for all to see.



he just answered that in the post above this, and yes, each event you can win a crescent in counts as a competition (in the case of a GJW, Novae :P)

Kaek

17-10-2008 09:07:58

Yeah - I feel like it would be really lame to count 1 feud or even 1 GJW as merely 1 competition; there are way too many events for me to do that.

Kaira Rohana

17-10-2008 10:17:35

I just thought of something that I wanted to ask....

In the last feud that my clan had with two other clans I one over all. Now would that count as a contest or would that count as something else? I was out to win it at all just out to have fun. Any way How would winning over all count? Also I won each week over all for gamming getting awards for that as well then won over all in gaming for the whole thing. Sorry I knwo this is a big confusing (hate spelling) but I just am wondering how that works into all this. so dose that count as winning a contest or what? just would like to know.

Macron Sadow

17-10-2008 11:42:39

Great discussion, thanks for the answers Kaek.

Kaek

17-10-2008 13:32:41

Winning overall in a Feud or GJW isn't going to count for anything special - and really, it shouldn't. The fact is, you'll already be getting credit for the various events in the Feud/GJW so it would basically be like double-dipping if I were to allow winning overall to count as extra.

Kaira Rohana

17-10-2008 15:15:57

thats what I thought but I wanted to make sure.

Etah

18-10-2008 06:08:16

I think its great you incorporated the SA degrees into the requirments. That is making SA degrees relivant to the DB and a subject I brought to Aabs some time ago. As far as time reqs, they can be frustrating but whats more frustrating is seeing someone who is doing as much or less than you promoted at a much faster rate because of different standerds between clans, which is what the time in grade/time in service requirments protect against. Greak work Kaek.

Xander Drax

19-10-2008 18:48:41

I think its great you incorporated the SA degrees into the requirments. That is making SA degrees relivant to the DB and a subject I brought to Aabs some time ago. As far as time reqs, they can be frustrating but whats more frustrating is seeing someone who is doing as much or less than you promoted at a much faster rate because of different standerds between clans, which is what the time in grade/time in service requirments protect against. Greak work Kaek.



Time in service requirements don't protect from people doing less then you getting promoted faster, uniform promotional standards do that. All a time requirement does is ensure that somebody that's doing a lot more then you is going to be promoted just as slowly as you are. The time in service thing I think encourages people to award merit medals, which is a good thing I think. There are far too many GRD's and JH's that haven't yet been awarded even a single merit medal, just some competition awards and a bunch of promos. Really, that medal is going to be on your dossier forever, while the promotion to GRD isn't going to matter a whole lot once you get to JH. The idea of diversifying award and recognition beyond pure promotions is a laudable goal.

As for the "leadership" stuff being used, if it's something we want to allow for promo requirements but not force everyone to do, then just add a "X amount of time as in a Leadership Role" to the optional requirements for some of the ranks. No reason to force people to do it that way, but we can recognize the people that want to.

The thing that I don't particularly like about these standards is the ambiguity inherent to the language and set up of them. The "should" thing was mentioned before, but I think requires more. "You should do this" is a lot weaker linguistically then "Do this". If the requirement to pass the CORE exam of your order "should" be completed before you get GRD, then just make the text "Complete Order Core Exam". If you leave it as this wussy "should", you're going to get people arguing semantics of it and what "should" actually means. The same goes for things like "Five to ten pages of character fiction to be approved by your House leadership or Master" and "Two to five Antei Combat Centre battles completed". There shouldn't be a "range" of activity that's acceptable, it should be five pages or ten pages, two battles or five battles. If you leave it as "five to ten" or "two to five", you're leaving Clan by Clan interpretational wiggle room which is what I thought these standards were supposed to get rid of. Say I'm a hard ass and I chose to approve no less then five acc matches, while some other QUA in Clan Easy Street decides that two is consistently acceptable. These things should be direct and specific, not nebulous.

Kaek

20-10-2008 22:57:07

The requirements have been updated to version 1.1

Sa Ool

23-10-2008 22:55:19

Hey when it says 10 total Comps does that mean snince you was promoted to Guardian or all throught our short Career to get promote to Jedi Hunter?

Timbal

24-10-2008 11:28:34

Kaek, from PRT to GRD, you have a req of running a comp. From GRD to JH, you have the req of running a comp as well. Would the same comp count for both, or would the person have to run 2 separate comps, one as a PRT and one as a GRD?

Thanks!

Hel-Pa Sklib

24-10-2008 13:08:06

From my understanding they would have to be different competitions, Timbal. I'll let Kaek have the final say.

Kaek

24-10-2008 15:44:05

Total means in your entire career. Also, those are two separate comps, Timbal

Jaron Kai

26-10-2008 15:07:50

I just thought I'd toss my two cents in. First off, background information. Once upon a time, many years ago, I was in the EHDB, then the Split happened, I chose a side (not this one) got fed up had everyone delete my dossiers and left the whole scene entirely. I'm back, and I chose to start over with the DB in part because I figured I needed the process of being promoted and relearning how things work around here.

Knowing that, I'll start with saying that I feel like the new promo system does an excellent job of doing just what it's supposed to, which is helping me get rewarded for stumbling around and learning how to be in the DB, I like the quality, type and number of tasks and I feel like I'm actually getting somewhere both in terms of promotions and not being a n00b.

I think, like some of the others, however, that the time requirements are a little high. And here's why I say that. Some folks are just going to "get it" faster than others, so they should be promoted sooner in respect of their knowledge. The catch is how do you test that though? My suggestion is that a selection of 3-4 tasks (you must do 2-3 of them) be added to each time limited promotion (PRT-GRD, etc.) that will shorten, but not eliminate the time requirements, and maybe let folks cut down their time by up to 50%. The "time requirement" tasks should demonstrate knowledge of the DB and how it works. Some things that popped to mind would be writing a 5 page fiction about your character that demonstrates your understanding of the lore of the DB, such as fitting your character into the timeline, fictionalizing your progress through the Shadow Academy, learning about the history of your Clan/House (or something along those lines, hopefully you can see what I'm getting at). Or you could make a substantive contribution to a wiki article that is NOT your character's article, demonstrating your knowledge of the topic (this might even force you to do some outside research or contact people outside your clan, etc. which would be a good exercise). I'm sure we could all brainstorm and come up with some more things that demonstrate accelerated understanding of the DB's structure and lore at each rank. You could also add the major/minor Master/House Summit tasks in this area, giving the clans back some of their freedom, and if a single Clan decides to make their tasks ridiculously hard, it wouldn't actually do that much harm, because in 2-3 weeks you would still be eligible for a promotion anyway.

Those are just my... at this point it's probably like 3.5 cents.

On the whole though, great system, thanks for thinking it up and I really am enjoying making use of it.

RevengeX

26-10-2008 20:48:53

Even though I am in favor of the time requirements, I like Jaron's idea about tasks that allow members to cut the time requirements a little bit.

VanWyck

28-10-2008 20:11:03

For discussing the new promotion requirements - go!† O-)


I wanted to know why the new guidelines stait that you have to have ten ACC battles in order to get promoted, since I have yet to do my INT training battle with an instructor. Is there any way around the ten ACC battles for those who do not really battle much, if so then what can I do?
GRD VanWyck

Jaron Kai

29-10-2008 17:21:54

I wanted to know why the new guidelines stait that you have to have ten ACC battles in order to get promoted, since I have yet to do my INT training battle with an instructor. Is there any way around the ten ACC battles for those who do not really battle much, if so then what can I do?
GRD VanWyck



Someone else can definitely correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you're required to complete 10 ACC battles to earn a promotion. Completing 2 ACC battles (for GRD to JH) or 5 ACC battles (for JH to DJK) are each one of several tasks that you can choose from to earn your promotion. You could chose to do other tasks in the same list (under the heading "Complete X of the following:") for each promotion and not have to enter the ACC at all to make it to DJK.

Hope that helps VanWyck!

Kaek

30-10-2008 00:41:40

Correct

Zaxen Dauketrenal

30-10-2008 04:58:55

I think one of the key fundamentals that is being missed by many as far as promotions are concerned is that by obtaining a higher rank you inherently begin to obtain more responsibility. In any sort of organization where rank is issued (military and etc.) it means that said individual has the abilities and the experience to do a job at a certain level as determined by those who promoted that individual.

In an organization such as ours this concept can become very skewed as we are based mostly around fiction. However, there is a work side to our organization that requires many members to put in extra time and effort as well as apply skills well beyond fiction, signing on to IRC, and playing games. Ranks above the Journeyman level are often sought for these positions for the simple fact that their rank is the first indicator that they have both experience and the abilities needed. Other things such as personal talents must be considered for certain jobs but rank generally reflects a members experience within an organization.

Now that being said not everyone in this organization is a born leader as was previously stated. This is very true. It is believed by many that in order to even get to an Equite rank, one must hold a position of BTL or higher and to progress past that you must hold a position considerably higher. So that means that pretty much the people who only game most of the time probably won't get past DJK... or even to DJK based on the current system. Same thing for those who only write.

What I think people should get away from is the concept that rank is reward. In essence rank is merely qualification. Granted in our fiction, rank also signifies our level of power and such but this is cosmetic and has no real value when applying it to the administrative side of things.

I believe what the MAA and the DC are doing by having this set of requirements is preparing individuals for leadership positions and setting them up for success within the DB. Lets face it, in order to be a leader you need to be able to have a lot of knowledge about how things work, you need to have the ability to rally people towards a goal, you need to be able to come up with activities to keep people interested, and you have to be organized to ensure everyone gets what they deserve as far as rewards and such.

On specific things, for instance time requirements. Time is often associated and sometimes wrongly so with experience. While it is the hope of many that time will equal experience that is hardly often the case. And that works both ways. For instance I have been in the DB for less than a year. I was able to rise to DJK in 7 months. I would also say I have a lot of experience in how things work. Not because I have been in the DB for a specific amount of time but because I applied myself to learn certain skills in order to progress. But everyone is not me. So time requirements is a way to sort of cushion things if you will. With time requirements it is the hope that individuals will use that time wisely. Not just check off a check sheet.

This is difficult for many to grasp I think. With our organization the way that it is now one can not simply be promoted because they are there. It really does blur the line between work and fun. With the clan houses being "multi-ordered" a leader is simply required to have a broad range of skills. This system attempts to provide that.

If we were to use the older system of a specific house being a specific order (Krath, Sith, Obelisk) we may be able to look towards more specifc interest groups and advancements for each interest group. However, we also loose our flexibility in characters which is probably one of the reasons why the old system was done away with. Perhaps we could revisit at least some of the old ideas and maybe think about possible order specific content based upon interests of the individual within the advancement system. I would imagine even that would require a lot of review of our current system of doing things however.

Anyway just some of my thoughts.

Timbal

13-11-2008 08:44:13

BTW, I forgot to post a thanks to Kaek and Sklib for their assistance in my question. Works out really nicely! :)

Sidarace

24-11-2008 14:42:39

William; the promotion from JH to DJK is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a TRIAL. When you think of how long it took Anakin Skywalker to go from Apprentice to Jedi Knight, it had taken most of his childhood/teen years to get it.

Now, I know that the example above is fictional, but the way I see it, the road to DJK is supposed to follow in the footsteps of a fictional aspect of how things work. If you are a Jedi Hunter and are working for Dark Jedi Knight, there is a big difference in rank there, and it should be taken as such.

GRD itself is a big difference compared to JH. JH sets you apart from the members who started out active, and then slowly start descending into inactivity due to lack of willingness to go forward. As is the same from DJK.

DJK separates you from every other Journeymen, and should be treated as such. Knighthood is supposed to be testing your skills to the max, and complaining because you have to wait a little less than two months, is not fair to the people who created the requirements, along with giving you a bad name, along with your leaders.

As for not having to do anything for your promotion to Jedi Hunter makes me support these requirements even more. It will set a standard for EVERYONE to follow, so that no one can blame other clans for not having to do anything for their promotions.

Now that I have gone on my little rant, I would like to state something that I noticed in the promotion requirements that could seemed a bit much to me.
From the rank of PRT to GRD, one of the requirements is: 'Create a competition and run it with the assistance of your leadership '.

However I think the promotion to GRD defines you from the regular inactives, I find it s bit much. I could see running a competition for GRD-JH, as GRD is the rank that you become BTL (If you are chosen as such by your house). It's not that big of a deal, but I am throwing it out there for discussion.

-Sid