Family Member Limit

Didn't realize this board was here till after I posted the other one. hehe

This may be a small and meaningless opinion, but why do you continuously lessen the amount of members a Family is allowed to have? I think that staying with 12 was perfectly fine, but now just about all the Families are over the size limit you specified. I think that keeping a 12 person limit is just fine, and that it should be changed back. I think the Families are smart enough not to try and be better then a House or Clan, so I really see nothing wrong with having a large group of friends bonding together. Just something that was on my mind.

~Esca~

You know, I have to agree. I find it humorous that, in the beginning, people were wary of regulating families, because in reality, we're not "offering them an official place," or any sort of history or station within the Brotherhood. All we're saying is, "We'll regulate you, and in turn, we'll keep people from taking your family name."

I call bull[Expletive Deleted] on that, too. Most family names are such that you would really have to want to be part of them to take the name. But since people can have the same last name, and not be related by blood, blah blah, blah, I think way too much regulation is being forced here. Also, to continually decrese the "legal number" of family members is ridiculous. New Family X hits 8 members, they want another, now, they have a problem. They can either boot someone else so "9" becomes "8," they can decide to start a new "attached" family, or they can try to "beseech the mighty MAA for permission to add another member."

As much as I consider you a friend, Kaek, and as much as I think a lot of your ideas have merit and are good, this one sucks apples. You're over-regulating this [Expletive Deleted].

I'd like to hear the reason(s) behind this change. Although I prefer the old "families aren't an official part of the club, we won't mess with them" attitude, I can understand (though not agree with) the move to limit families to 12 members. I don't, however, understand why the max number of members has been decreased only a few weeks after the limit of 12 was put on.

Edited for grammar.

I have to agree. 12 is just fine.

I'd rather it go back to being what it was before the restriction, but I think we can live with 12. *nods*

~Esca~

I had originally written out a response to your (Esca) concerns but it appears that others have problems with the limit as well. Therefore, I'm going to go about this a different way.

Because a few of you have concerns about this, I'll reconsider the limit. You would all greatly oblige me if you could respond to this post and tell me the following:

1.) Why are families good for the DB?
2.) What is the purpose of the family system?
3.) Why do you specifically support the family system?
4.) What is your ideal limit on family size and why?
5.) What differentiates a family from any other official unit of the Brotherhood?

Please do NOT include

1.) Why the 8 member limit sucks
2.) Assorted bitching of any sort (I know you're going to have a tough time with this, Beef, but try )

In other words, give me positive stuff to work with. You are all also welcome to comment briefly on why Pyralis sucks - if you do, I will love you more than I already do.

Your feedback will help me understand a better way to handle this. Thanks!

Thank you, Kaek.

No, I'm not going to comply with that, and I'll tell you why. Personally, I do not support the family system as it is in the Brotherhood. There was never supposed to be any "official recognition" for families, because they are not an official part of the Brotherhood. As it has been said so many times, if they were, they would replace Clans. And to be honest, if that's the case, open up Independent Houses, and we'll see House Dipshyxx, House Antwerps, House Polesmokers, and more. That's not something that we want; at least, not at this point. I do support allowing Independent Houses again, but that's another issue.

Why do I have a problem with this limit being enforced, and now dropped from 12 to 8? As far as I was aware, the regulation of families came to help ensure that families were not promoting and rewarding their own without proper cause. We regulated and called for representatives and all that crap so that we could make sure people understood, families were a "side subject," and "being an active family member" did not constitute being an active DB member, did not provide grounds for rewarding, and so on, and so forth.

So you tell me, Kaek. How does dropping the family limit from 12 to 8 make you more effective in making sure that families are not awarding family members inappropriately? I have nothing but faith in your ability to be MAA, and I have nothing but respect for your competence in fulfilling your job. But this, I do not have faith in. I think it's a ridiculous change, with no real basis, and I'd like to understand why you changed it. And, I can tell, so would others.

So, you can provide us with a reason here. Thanks much.

The reasoning was in accordance with the original idea behind family regulation. Part of the way I aimed to prevent families from becoming abusive is by preventing them from becoming too large. Surprising as it may be, some Clan leaders have recently complained to me about the unwarranted 'influence' of families in their Clans. These complaints originated after I set the limit to 12 (which is just above what most families are currently at). I decided to shift it down to 8 since that's about where most families are at now. I did this to address some of the concerns being brought to my attention.

You needn't make things so confrontational, BF You have a nasty habit of doing that. I specifically said I would reconsider the limit and some of you have chosen to email me with your opinions in a constructive manner. BF, we're friends; you know me and you know that I'm not going to bull[Expletive Deleted]. Case in point: watch this...it might shock the entire DB...but watch it nonetheless:

I may, and probably have, made a mistake.

Shocking!!! Yes I know...a vaunted DC member admitting he might be wrong. But that's my whole philosophy. Rationality. Pragmatism. There will ALWAYS be a legitimate reason behind something I do; but I make mistakes too.

So, while I consider the opinions of those interested in this matter, think about the other options I had. I could've been an asshole and ignored this. I could've simple responded with "Shut up, I don't care." I could've behaved like other DC members in the past and said "Ohhh...thanks for your concerns" and done nothing. However, that is not the case.

Anyways, I await the comments on this policy from everyone else.

And I'd just like to state for the record...

I love Bloodfyre passionately

Actually, I love you too, Kaek. But I don't like stuff being "swept under the rug," or "pushed into a closet." There's no reason not to talk about this issue in public, where people can comment and evaluate and blah blah blah blah blah.

I don't like how families are currently. I think that, if you allow them to become too big, they replace Clans and Houses as the core unit of the Brotherhood. Families are not meant to be that important, and some people forget about that. They are side units that are not officially recognized or accepted within the Brotherhood. I've seen specific people and specific families that act as if they should eventually be allowed to form their own Clan and such, and that perverts a facet of the Brotherhood that should be allowed. Yes, I believe in allowing Independent Houses, and I have pushed that idea, and will continue to do so.

But my point was, limiting family size doesn't regulate if their rewards are appropriate. Having other leaders sign off and validate them is a possibility. There's other methods of trying to regulate. My question to you is, why this method? Why limiting family members to 8?

And, as a side note to people in families, please recognize, your family is not the core unit. Issues raise up because of families trying to override House and Clan. Some families do this; others do not. I'm not going to point fingers. But please, let's remember what the base is for things. If we did, and if we didn't abuse things like this, it wouldn't be regulated.

And, by the way. Drink a beer.

Well actually, just some clarification.

I didn't intend for this to be "swept under the rug." I wanted people to post their opinions here publicly, not email it to me. So....yeah...for those of you who still want to say something, post it here.

Just a quick note before I go to bed: I don't think that stopping bad awards due to family relation is the only reason for regulating families these are the ones just off the top of my head here at 3 am...

- Ensuring that there is no improper motives for rewards
- Protecting the smaller clan and house units from insignificance
- Ensuring that there is a proper fictional background for members
- Ensuring that new members aren't conjoled into joining and supporting a family prior to learning about the DB
- Ensuring that families do not have number competitions by trying to get more and more members
- Keeping the fictional basis for the DB and its membership sound

I think that one of the most important ones is the last one. The DB is an anomaly in itself in the Star Wars universe having hundreds of Dark Jedi -- but when we start having gigantic families of Dark Jedi, we are going a bit beyond that even. The way I look at the families, and especially the limit on them to 8, 10 or 12, is that even the Skywalker family (the most prominent force family in Star Wars) didn't have too many over time. Goat will probably correct me, but I think through blood and marriage, the total number of Skywalker force users throughout the extended universe is 8...maybe 9 (Anakin, Luke, Leia, 3 Solo kids, Mara, and didn't Mara and luke have a kid or 2?)

The question comes down to what is reasonable in light of the goals we have. I think 8 is a reasonable number in general. Maybe 10 would be better...but as we get higher, what's the point? 12 is a full battleteam. When you get to 12, that's 12 people to watch over regarding promotions, vs 8. 12 people who the HRLD has to make sure their histories actually fit logically into the Family story and make sure there is a real explanation.

That's the key -- the DB has only been around for 20 or so years in SW time...if you have 12 people in a family, they better all be first cousins or of the same father/mother (I doubt any of the family members have written themselsves as the father or unlce of another member)....how realistic is that anyway to have 12 related people all join the same group...and have that happen multiple times in the group with different families.

All in all, I think the fewer the members in the family, the better...but if the family could come up with a really good fictional explanation for how they exist and came to be, I wouldn't be opposed to exceptions. It would really need to make sense though.

Anyway -- enough of this at 3:30.

Jac

Just one extra question about this limit, does it apply for Clan Titles as well?

Nope.

Once I get more time to post my thoughts, I'll have a longer one, but I'd just like to point something out in response to what Jac said.

As far as I knew, families aren't blood relation. Some may be, but I know that the Isradia are a band of friends, RL and IC, that joined together. Nothing blood relation. Just thought I'd point that out, though it probably has no bearing on anything. ^_^

~Esca~

No Esca that's an important consideration and one that is understood for several of the families - including my own.

Yes. I am the only non-blood Keibatsu that I know of, having been "adopted" by my Master Nekura. It is an important consideration.

Back in the day (i.e. pre-split) my family started with myself and another person in the house who was my (fictional) sister before the idea of families ever came up. Everyone that joined after that point weren't worked in as blood family, it was more of an extremely tight group of friends who considered each other family and took my sister's and my last name because we were already an established family. The only exception was one person who we took in as my adopted daughter because I (I being Crix, not the guy sitting behind the computer) had more or less been acting like her father since she joined.

Kaek, my answer for your first three questions is the same so I'll save the redundancy and just write it out once. Families add an extra element to the fictional side of the Brotherhood. They allow the members to add more depth to their histories, in the case of blood families, to show a visible sign of a very strong friendship or to show who "trained" and brought a member up through the ranks, as happened a few times in my family; a few of the members of the family were people who I or my fictional sister had mentored and a strong friendship had developed between us.

I will address each of the points that Jac mentioned separately:

- Ensuring that there is no improper motives for rewards

I will grant that this is very important and something that has the potential to be abused (or maybe it already has been, I do not get to see that sort of information). I do not, however, think that limiting the size of families will help with this problem. It doesn't take a large group of people to submit improper reward requests; it just takes one. I think the answer to this problem is something that's already being done: Kaek is requiring all promotion and medal requests to have specific information about why the person recieving the award deserve to have it. A request stating that member X deserves a StA for loyal service to family Y will be denied. I don't see how keeping families smaller will make any differences in this area, save for the fact that you'll have less people who could potentially abuse the system that already has a rather good check for improper requests in it already.

- Protecting the smaller clan and house units from insignificance

This is also something that I can agree with. There should be some limit on how many people can be in a family. I feel that 8 members is too restrictive, however. The smallest unit of the Brotherhood is the Battle Team, which has up to 12 members. I feel that an approperate compromise between keeping the families smaller then the Battle Teams and allowing them to grow as much as possible would be 10 members.

- Ensuring that there is a proper fictional background for members

I don't see how limiting the size of families would effect this, except for lowering the number of details and histories that needed to be checked. This, however, assumes that we're talking about blood relation families. If a family is made up of close friend then the fictional background of the family members only has to explain how they met the other family members, rather then how they grew up together and all made it to the Brotherhood.

- Ensuring that new members aren't conjoled into joining and supporting a family prior to learning about the DB

Again, a valid concern. Also again, the only way that I see this being effected by the number of family members is that if there are less people in a family then there's less of a chance that they will recruit someone into the Brotherhood specifically to join their family.

- Ensuring that families do not have number competitions by trying to get more and more members

This I can completely agree with. Although I'd like to think that we are all mature then that, I'm sure that this will happen at some point.

- Keeping the fictional basis for the DB and its membership sound

I can agree with this to an extent. It would be against the interest of the entire membership if one family became incredibly powerful and installed its members in key positions in the club. I don't see this as being one of the main arguments that could be used against families though. To a point, I feel that families actually help the fictional basis of the DB. They provide an aspect of unity besides the clan or house that a member is in. Just as long as family unity coincides with clan unity and doesn't override it. That's when problems start to arise.

I believe a main concern of this family business, from the administration's point of view, is to prevent another Tang'va incident. I won't get into specifics, but I'll say that a lot of what Jac has said in his bulleted list is the same stuff they were doing. Perhaps current families are pushing the limits along the lines that they did.

More on topic, I agree with what Jac said, especially this:

how realistic is that anyway to have 12 related people all join the same group...and have that happen multiple times in the group with different families.

1.) Why are families good for the DB?
2.) What is the purpose of the family system?
3.) Why do you specifically support the family system?
4.) What is your ideal limit on family size and why?
5.) What differentiates a family from any other official unit of the Brotherhood?

1: Fictional purposes, Character Development, and friendship-relationship building.

2: I'm not in an actual family, so I can't speak for anyone at the moment, but I would think that it would be for Friendship and Help, at least, that is what my old family had for its purpose.

3: Because I like the Character Development it brings, plus the closer relationship with other members, as well as the fun of just messing around with others ^_^ lol

4. 10-12, not bigger than a BT, but still nicely sized, and also, you have to remember, we aren't limited to friends, if I was in a family and I had a really really close friend in the DB, I would want him to join the Family too! And if you make a small family, that means only so many people can bring so many friends, and then another family would have to be made, so really, by limiting the amount of members in a family, you are actually just making things worse for you!

5: A Family is usually (From what I have seen) spread among different Clans, very few families are actually completely 100% in the same Clan/House/BT. Also, they can't award people, make comps, and stuff.


Now I know my opinion doesn't matter much, but still, so what if Families are a little big? It just means that more and more people are becoming friends with each other (Or at least the families that play fair...).

I mean, What can Families do? They can't request awards, competitions, nothing that a BT can, and even if they TRIED, which I would hope they aren't blind enough to do, wouldn't you just deny it Kaek? It couldn't be that hard...

From what I have seen, Families help each other out, they help build Character development, friendships, and just make overall better DBers.

Yes, that is what a Clan/House/BT is supposed to do, but what's the harm in having 2 seperate things both doing the same thing? I would like to think that it makes it twice as strong, not replaces the other.

*Bows* I know my opinion doesn't matter, but thanks for hearing me out in the least.


*EDIT*

And also, from what I have seen, Families are not blood related. I don't think I've ever actually seen one that is. It's mostly Adoptions/Close Friends/stuff like that. Maybe old families were like that, but I haven't seen any "new" ones with Blood Relations.

*Bows* Thanky.

Families need to be abolished. That is all.

I second the motion

I'll support the motion if we add an addendum that says Shadow needs to wear pants at all times.

The current motion is the abolition of Families and that Shadow must wear pants?

I'll support that.

I'd rather just go for the first part. But if the motions have to passed together, then so be it.

Abolishing Families? How about some reasons for that? Cause I don't support it one bit.

~Esca~

Esca, slow down a minute and think about what is being said, and by whom. It's said more tongue-in-cheek than anything.

Families hold no real purpose and have caused more problems than they are worth. Look at how much bloody time and effort is being put into this instead of projects that could actually further develop the Brotherhood. But no... let's waste our time debating how many people can share a stupid last name and create fictional family ties. That makes so much more sense.

You want a family? You have your battleteam, your House and your Clan. Be a family with them.


PS: I'll never wear pants.

Families hold no real purpose and have caused more problems than they are worth. Look at how much bloody time and effort is being put into this instead of projects that could actually further develop the Brotherhood. But no... let's waste our time debating how many people can share a stupid last name and create fictional family ties. That makes so much more sense.

You want a family? You have your battleteam, your House and your Clan. Be a family with them.




Amen.

The only families worth keeping are the Clan names, and the Longs. ¬.¬

I have to say, why does the DC care? Yes, the Tang'va incident was bad, but still, all the families I have seen have caused no problems. i see no reason why that, unless that group is specifically doing something wrong, that it matters if they all have the same last name. It doesn't matter if it helps, if it doesn't hurt why does it matter. Remember~

if it ain't broke, don't fix it

~which is my point exactly.

I think it's been quite clearly stated on the news page that there will be no more further consideration regarding this topic. Appeal/bitch/whine/whatever how much you want...he's made up his mind, and the end statement is on the news page.

I have to disagree with the families being a waste of time. Mine has only helped each of the members become more active in the DB. Maybe that's the exception, though. And ten is fine with me.

We're trying to point out that it shouldn't take a Family to help you. Your House and Clan should be doing that. If they are not, demand better.

Kaek make it rather clear that the topic is closed, save some earth-shattering revelation about the nature of families and the DB itself. Lets move on.

I'm not reconsidering the limit anymore. But feel free to bitch and rant here. Get it out of your systems.

I'll still monitor this topic and if it gets particularly lame or nasty, I'll close it. So play nice, kids.

I'm not reconsidering the limit anymore. But feel free to bitch and rant here. Get it out of your systems.

I'll still monitor this topic and if it gets particularly lame or nasty, I'll close it. So play nice, kids.



Bitch whine bitch whine

lol Kraval. I think everyone who's against famalies is missing the point. I think famalies is great because the MAJORITY of the people who use them have fun with it and isn't that what the DB is all about? having fun?

No. it's about cleaning my shoes.

Now clean my shoes, bitch!

And the biggest concern of people who have opposing viewpoints are the fact that some people do forget that Clans and Houses are supposed to be like bonds of kinship, too. People forget that there are facets of the Brotherhood that are supposed to mean just as much, or more. People forget that families are not the singular thing in the Brotherhood that they're supposed to focus on.

Yes, some families stand out among the crowd and are the paragons to which other families might strive to follow. But there have been examples in the past (not just the Tang'Va) that many of us remember, and are simply trying to deter. "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" It used to be broke. We fixed it. Along with fixing something comes maintenance.

Take all of this bull[Expletive Deleted] in that context.

Indeed the Clans and House are supposed to bring pride to the people who are in it and indeed I do feel pride for being in Scholae. Though if you look at it realisticlly what means more to people than anything else? Thier Family. And thats how it should be. Its a close knit bond. Let this happen and the brotherhood will be filled with reasistic dark jedi.

Though if you look at it realisticlly what means more to people than anything else? Thier Family. And thats how it should be.


That's exactly why I'm against families.

Your Clan/House should mean more to you than your Family.

As you say, they should just a bit of fun. But it causes divided loyalities, deflected focus and a lot of time and effort dealing with these new groups...and then dealing with any bitching and moaning of those of us who are against a family limit ...or against families at all.

Originally I was against Families just because they seem dumb. The more I think of it, the less I like them.

Listen my clan/house means alot to me. And I'm not saying that families takes anything away from it. But famalies should play a role in the Dark Brotherhood. And as Kaek has already said he's not changing it, so its pointless to argue on this matter.

"Realistic Dark Jedi" are people who have nothing except their power, and their greed, and their anger, and their hatred, and they want to conquer everything, or die trying. "Realistic Dark Jedi" are not people filled with honor and thoughts for their families, no matter how much we want them to be. In the Dark Brotherhood, we have taken our own twist upon all-things-Star Wars, but it doesn't change the fact that some people have taken their own turns that otherwise wouldn't be accurate in the Star Wars universe.

We're looking at things from a "real world point-of-view." Caring about your family and being close to them beyond anything else is something natural to most of us, and is therefore natural to re-create. But when you're thinking about being a being whose only concern is power and lust... being part of a family doesn't really keep up with it.

Most families in the Brotherhood are not really going to be ties of blood. The Longs are a group tied together by a common apprenticeship; I believe the Isradias are the same way. You're not going to see 10 people in one family, all who are Force-sensitive, just packing up and "headin' on out to the Dark Side, Ma and Pa." Just doesn't happen. Except in our own imaginations. And that's fine, but we still need to be realistic about this.

Clans and Houses are supposed to come first, because that's what we've pledged our loyalty to, to be active and to help dominate. Families can't earn possessions and victories in the Brotherhood; Clans and Houses can. Families can't go out and be declared the most active unit in any specific competition; Clans and Houses can. Families aren't supposed to be a focal point to the Brotherhood; Clans and Houses are. Families are just supposed to be something to "spice it up" for certain members. They're not supposed to be "what you dedicate your time to." Not in the Brotherhood.

Man I strongly agree with you. I joined a family for fun, not really for anything else. I mean I spent a lot of time with the family members so i wanted to have the same name as them.

Families are for what...fun. I mean you could mention them in run-on comp that hes your brother or somethin but i dont see how that could mess with the clan/house system. If it doesn enlighten me.

Agree with who?

"Realistic Dark Jedi" are people who have nothing except their power, and their greed, and their anger, and their hatred, and they want to conquer everything, or die trying. "Realistic Dark Jedi" are not people filled with honor and thoughts for their families, no matter how much we want them to be.

This is a characature of evil...a cartoon bad guy. The stereotype bred in hearts and minds of those who watch too much television. It's easy to not have empathy for a person such as you describe... but the reality of the matter is that it's not that simple. The bad guys don't all wear black hats and the good guys don't all wear white.

People turn to devious means for various ends... Perhaps it is revenge, perhaps it is lust, perhaps it is fear. It's rarely the psychopathic, drooling evil for evil's sake that you've described here.

Ask Bin Laden if he thinks his family is important. Ask Hussein what he feels about his dead sons. Now, these are men almost universally reviled as the most 'Evil' men. And yet, they have love for family... Huh.


You're not going to see 10 people in one family, all who are Force-sensitive,

Hmmm. Anakin Skywalker had twins (luke and Leia) who became Jedi, and then another generation brought four more jedi (jacen, jaina, anakin, ben) into the fold. Add in Mara marrying into it. That's eight in three generations. Imagine if that tree was a little bit longer, and how many people would have been jedi in a larger Skywalker bloodline. Hell, we know that Luke's progeny carry the force sensitive trait through to Cade Skywalker in the newest comics (set 140 ABY).

Yes, that's the Skywalker family... and so maybe it's a bit unfair to use them as an example. But then again, We see the Hett... Sharad and A'sharad. Father passes the trait down. Easy enough. It's known that the Jedi Trait is inherited through strong bloodlines. It's just that the Jedi who scoured the Republic for force sensitive kids and indoctrinated them in their (non-baby having) ways kinda screwed themselves over Quaker-style.

Now imagine a family that's not from the republic, living outside of the influence of the Empire, far away even from Jedi, and not knowing who or what they are.... They'd be left alone... and a family of untrained force sensitives could easily be reasonable. It's just a matter of finding a way to bring them into a place where they'd be enlisted by the brotherhood or the Jedi... pretty easily explained, actually.

And to be honest, one of the official deciding factors to determine a family's official status is to have a fictional history and explanation logged with the Herald. The only Families to have done this so far have been the Isradia (wow, Jon. just wow) and the Keibatsu (which was done while Kaine was still Herald, so shut your traps). That doesn't mean that the Cantors, the Longs, or the Entars aren't official...it just means that they haven't gone through all the official stuff yet.

So there's my two cents on that subject.



And for the record, since we're getting a lot of stares and barely veiled innuendo on this topic:
• Yes, the Keibatsu are blood related, except for one (Macron is adopted). And no, we're not all from the same parents.
• Yes, the Keibatsu are all in one clan: Naga Sadow (or DC/Rogue). This is intentional, so as to not compete with clans for attention and activity.
• Yes, the Keibatsu had a large number of positions in CNS for a long time. This was a testament to the high activity of our family, not to some devious plan to usurp CNS. That idea, frankly, is laughable for anyone who knows us, as our loyalty has never been questioned by the clan summits over the years.
• Yes, the Keibatsu have a limit as to how many people will be permitted to join us. That number has always been 9. Manji and I set this more than a year ago, again to keep our numbers from posing a threat to a clan or house. We have NO intention of being a house. Further, every person who wants to join the family has to come up with an impressively written and realistic explanation as to how they were family, how they are related, and how they were lost for so long (there was a massacre on our bloodline less than a generation ago) and yet found their way to the brotherhood and back to us. Yes, there's a story... and I think we're up around 150 pages now, if not more.

so, consider the rumour mill quashed.

Muz, you make a lot of good, valid points. And to be honest, I was excluding those. I was painting a stereotype. There are always exceptions to the rules; my only point was, they are exceptions. Otherwise, we make the "noble, honorable, self-sacrificing evil-doer" the rule, and make the stereotype the exception. Which, it's all possible, but it's all in the eyes of the beholder.

And so on, and so forth. But my point was, how realistic is it for every family to have every person in that family Force-sensitive? Not very. Sure, there are "Force lines" and such, like the Skywalkers. But the accepted canon is that, in this era, many of those lines have been destroyed through the Jedi Purges. Luke spent how long trying to establish a Jedi Academy and find Force-sensitives? Stuff like that.

And I forget what else I was going to say, so I'm sure it's not important.

Seems that most of you are going back on the sole fact that 'all' families are of blood relation. Not every one is. So that's something people need to get straight.

~Esca~

Yeah, and we're all babbling and debating this here just for the fun of it. Nothing is really going to come out of this, so we should all take it in that light, too. Nobody shoul dbe getting their dungarees in a bunch.

look at Anakin? He cared for his SON enough that as dark as vader was to have slaughtered YOUNGLINGS, it brought him back from the dark side and he saved his son. Family matters to some and this all depends on what had forced your character to the dark side to begin with. You cannot say that all dark jedi hate thier family.

Yeah, and we're all babbling and debating this here just for the fun of it.  Nothing is really going to come out of this, so we should all take it in that light, too.  Nobody shoul dbe getting their dungarees in a bunch.




Esca has no sense of humour. He takes everything seriously.

I'm glad you guys started to figure out it was pointless to debate the issue

EDITED: Removed.

Don't worry, nobody is going to completely nix families; the discussion was about the max number of people who could claim membership in one family. They're something that can add a great deal of fictional depth to a person's character, as long as everything stays within the constrains of the Brotherhood as a whole. As long as everyone involved in the family knows this and respects the fac that a person's membership in a house and clan should come before any other attachments (except a few select cased like Tribunes) within or (fictionally speaking) outside of the Brotherhood then families are a great thing for people to get involved in. It's only when the families are abused and people forget their clan that problems start to develop.

I had originally written out a response to your (Esca) concerns but it appears that others have problems with the limit as well. Therefore, I'm going to go about this a different way.

Because a few of you have concerns about this, I'll reconsider the limit. You would all greatly oblige me if you could respond to this post and tell me the following:

1.) Why are families good for the DB?
2.) What is the purpose of the family system?
3.) Why do you specifically support the family system?
4.) What is your ideal limit on family size and why?
5.) What differentiates a family from any other official unit of the Brotherhood?

Please do NOT include

1.) Why the 8 member limit sucks
2.) Assorted bitching of any sort (I know you're going to have a tough time with this, Beef, but try )

In other words, give me positive stuff to work with. You are all also welcome to comment briefly on why Pyralis sucks - if you do, I will love you more than I already do.

Your feedback will help me understand a better way to handle this. Thanks!



OK heres my two credits on the subject:

1) As patriarch of the Mandalore Family and co-founder the ill fated Tang'va family, I feel that families if held with in the sanctuary of a clan can be quite usefull as far as giving the clan a distint social structure or nobility if you will. Let us take CNS for example, The Keibatsu Family are known for their writing skills and leadership skills. In rollplaying they are skilled swordsmen while carrying themselves with a more sophisticated social behavior.
Any new member to the clan could earn themselves an invite to this family thru activity, dedication and a certain level of achievement. So you can see why it is quite luring to join.

2) The family system has two purposes with the main one being RP and the second(if contained in a clan) would be to help each other build up weaker points. For example: When I was in Arcona I was in the Xyler family(briefly) and I had trouble understanding how to increase my skills in Allegiance, besides having my master at the time help teach me, Arcturus Xyler who was the leader of the Xylers also took the time out to teach me how to build up my skill.

3) I support the family system if it is held with in the clan as long as the family main goal is to help better the clan.

4) I dont think there should be a limit, however,
A- If anyone would like to start a family with in their clan they should get the approval of the Clan summit which then would be presented to the master at arms.

B- If there is an applicant for an already registered family, the applicant must meet certain requirements that would be approved again by the clan summit, then submit an application for the name change with a recomendation of a member of a clan summit and the registered family leader.
Again acceptance would be decided by the master at arms.

5) A family gives members a creative edge when it comes to fiction, families with in a clan can feud among themselves in all platforms with a set story line.