Ksoe Discussion


15-08-2007 12:29:59

What are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? What changes would you like to see? What should stay the same? Should we scrap the system and hand total control to the Clans? Should we remove the Clans from the equation entirely up to a certain rank?

Basically, I am giving you a chance to vent your frustrations and air your suggestions without fear. Nothing you say will be held against you (unless you give me inane and ridiculous ideas, which at this point, is a very slim chance. No idea at this point is ridiculous. :))

I have included the Consuls and Proconsuls in this discussion because I value their input. I can't simply hand total control over without their input. So Consuls and ProConsuls, please give me your input as well.

One thing to remember from the Interim Envoy Procedures. It is very very likely that the SA "auto-promotions" will be coming back in one form or another. Is this going to make our job redundant or simply easier?

Please do not post in this topic until a password has been set.

Sephiroth Kali

15-08-2007 21:25:16

Macron Goura -

Here are my 2 cents.

The Envoy system is useful, when it works. This entails having people who can and will do the job on your staff. I have seen Envoys do great things, help members... and have been one myself. Right now, the CNS Envoy system is working well, and it helps.

Putting everything in the hands of the Clans entirely would be a mistake. If they were all standardized, then yes. But they are all different, and that leads to chaos and an ineffective system.

SA autopromotions are a good idea. It gives another useful tool to keep people involved, and takes some of the burden off of Summits.

Sephiroth Storm-

This is a tough thing to put into words in an online forum but i'll try.

I beieve that the SOE should be kept. Whether reorginization or what not is needed I don't know, but I would like to remind everyone what happened to the last Society that was slated for "reorginization". I still haven't seen a "new GMRG".

In any case, I believe that Auto promotions up through PRT is a good Idea. Envoys are required I believe in welcoming new members, and heck, telling them to go to the SA, telling them to get on IRC. Once a member reaches PRT then its more time for the Clan's to get involved, in giving them a Clan "Identity".

That's what I got for now.


The autopromotions make my job harder because they screw-up our clan trials. I was pleased when they stopped, and Lucien knows my views on their reintroduction ;)

I wouldn’t mind members remaining under the control of the SA for a bit longer than they do now, but it would be a lot more work for the HM. Once they get to ACO-PRT, they do need to start being integrated into a clan.

I’m actually quite happy with the system we have at the moment. Maybe the KCB could build up a central resource of welcome letters etc that Envoys can use to generate some sort of commonality across the clans, but I think the wiki is already starting to do that.


Erm...I like the idea of SA auto-promotions, but that kind of makes the use for Envoys zero, at least in Clan Plagueis. I know we assign Masters as part of an Master/Student Program at the rank of Protector, but I believe that if the SA controls Journeymen up to NOV or ACO, and then sends them off to a clan where we only control promotions through one or two ranks before a one-on-one MSP program kicks in, then it makes our job as Envoys easier...anyway, that's just my worthless two pennies.


I'll flip my thoughts out for everyone... take them with half a grain of salt.

The Society needs to be reduced to the core individuals: KCE and six representatives from the Clans. I am also, firmly, of the belief that these six individuals need to uphold the DB ethos and mission statement, setting their Clan loyalties to the side as they further the work of the Brotherhood. So, with that, I would also suggest only individuals whom have held the post of QUA or higher and/or maintain the rank of Equite 2. We want these individuals to have a firm grasp on what the DB is and the necessary skills for success and encouragement.

Also, don't assume the buck stops there... these folks will just be held accountable for ensuring their Clan succeeds in its most basic duties. Additional delegates can be assigned at the House Level to spread the load... but, honestly, it shouldn't be necessary. With the reinstitution of Auto-Promotions, the Envoys will get a break... basic, comprehensive Weekly Contact E-mails can be manufactured to outline the necessary steps for advancement (and DB comprehension) from APP to PRT. At the rank of PRT the Clans are given three sets of "Trials" to indoctrinate their members into the system... a new MAA Guideline detailing APP-DJK should help set up a basic focus and a time line for average member advancement (tasks and time-in).

Lastly, we can institute a system (through the DB Site) where the Masters and Students can assign/complete Trials. Along with a ram of other functions that I have seen/discussed with Lucien long into DB-cram-session nights. (All his ideas, btw).

My only other suggestion is to assign each Clan Envoy a DB e-mail address where the GM, DGM, HM, KCB and CONs can check to ensure the KCE is performing their emails/tasks in a timely manner. No more need for carbon copies... Leaders just have to log-in to see the work their guy is doing. Additionally, by making it open-access we can archive important progression information, emails, notifications for long standing DB records/archives.

Right... I'll shut up now.

Sephiroth Kali

15-08-2007 21:28:02


Aren't we already doing that now, Braecen? We have six KCEs, then the clans can have house-leveled Envoys if they wish. Although I believe you said that the KCEs would report to the KCB personally. The only changes I saw you speak of are the changes Lucien has planned for the KSOE as a whole.... but then again I am no longer an Envoy, and no longer am affiliated as one, plus I am a crazy man too. :)

Either way, I am going to speak my words before someone takes me off the google group:

The KSOE *is* a good idea, although when I first joined, I never once spoke to any House-Clan Envoy at all. I never knew that either or was until being in the DB for several months, and I just this year found out what a KCB is. Although I like to think I did well, the only person who really was helping me in my advancement was my Aedile Rasilvenaira Stormraven, whom was the most crucial individual of my success for a long while until my Quaestor Braecen Kunar came into my success as well. I think that houses are the most important entities to success in the Brotherhood, and it was to me.

As a Rollmaster, I never followed the regulations. I emailed a few people with the welcoming email but I soon came up with my own technique. I emailed the people personally, asked them what they wanted from the DJB, what they planned to achieve and I also told them the best things to do to get promoted. I didn't play it officially, and the only people I sent it to were the new member. I also found out that I got more replies when I acted as a house-mate/friend than the Envoy.

From what I see, the KSOE does work for some, but I have had lots more success being the house guy than the official guy.... but then again I was fired for being the house guy (as well as my email access being taken away ;)) as well, so maybe it wasn't the best thing.


I think that what Braecen was saying was one KCB and 6 Clan Envoys. No more House Envoys, just 7 people doing the job that should be done. At least, that is what I THINK he meant. :P

Sephiroth Storm-

Thats what he said but then he said: "Additional delegates can be assigned at the House Level to spread the load". Which would basicly mean they would be Envoys with no position or title, no way to get recognised for thier efforts. I also have to note, how long it takes to get members to EQ II, and how few o0f them are willing to serve. Also, these KCE's would need experience bringing members up, you dont get that unless you were either a house/clan leader, or an Envoy (like me, I started out 2 years ago, working for my House Envoy, then I took his place, and I hope to take KCE when I he is ready to step aside. I have never been an official House Summit member, but I have been privliged to work along side them). Therefore, assigning the position to former House leaders or EQ II and above is not logical.

I also don't like the idea of Clan "Trials" when a member reaches PRT. I remember when I was knighted, I had to complete 4 trials instead of the usual 3, that nearly had me pulling my hair out. anyway, like I said, I think the Clan's should take over at PRT, this also makes it easier on the MAA, so he can now concentrate on promo's PRT and above, and doesn't have to worry about who rates below PRT. Yes, the HM will have a little more work, but It should be pretty straigtforward, member complete's this many exams of this type, he's promoted. The HM already has Direct promotion athority through the SA so the system is already in place.


Yeah, that's the best idea I have heard.


When I joined the DB, there was no Society of Envoys. There were House Summits, and even Clan Summits, who took an active interest in new recruits. The way I remember it being, you could be promoted up to Guardian through Shadow Academy stuff, and after that, the Shadow Academy site even told you that you needed to become an active part of your Clan to progress further. SA activity wasn't mandatory for progression to Guardian, but it was an alternative. You were quite capable of going into the Clan as "Apprentice [insert name here]," and progressing just as fast (sometimes faster) than those who stuck with the SA through to Guardian.

What I remember of my introduction to the Clan is, an email from Kodiak Tonaloc, the Quaestor, welcoming me, and telling me the House's requirements to be in the House's team, and to contact the TET for further into if I was interested. I was told that the team wasn't just for anyone, that it would offer me more activity, but would require more effort, and afford me certain rewards. I was given all of the info that I needed to progress, and told where to look for help, but specifically told that I had to put forward the effort to achieve things.

In some ways, I have always disagreed with the Envoy system. My initial impression of it was, I understood that some people needed extra help, or wanted to train new leadership, but I've always thought it was a reason to allow House Summits to toss their duties off onto other people. We had Quaestors and Aediles, and we also had Rollmasters. Rollmasters were, back when there weren't databases, the people who kept the House records, worked with the MAA to ensure the DB site was up-to-date, kept records of awards, email addresses, etc. Databases came, Rollmasters slowly phased out, for the most part. Now, they're used by some Clans to train new leadership, etc. It's a subjective position, and not even given real recognition, to be honest.

The Envoys were part of a system designed to put more and more recruits through the Academy and into circulation as quickly as possible (in my opinion), banking on the success of the Prequel Trilogy that was bringing in more people. Some people said the recruits would eventually taper off, others said we had to work to make sure they didn't. When you look at the numbers of recruits, and those who were retained, there's several ways to interpret it. "The Envoys don't do their job!" "The system is broke!" "New people aren't getting promoted fast enough!" You can say anything you want, but as I see it, I think we're looking too high.

What's the benefit of having dozens of people join each week, or however many join, when they don't stay? Sure, some of it may fall on inactive leadership, or people not making enough contact. But really, there also has to be motivation put forward by the recruits. If we provide them with all the info they need to get active, and they don't, whose fault is it?

Personally, I think the Envoys, as is, is dead. I think they're pointless, and there's no reason to have any of them, from KCB on down. What I think, however, is that there is a use, and a purpose, to Clans working with the Shadow Academy, to make sure that new members have all the info they need on the DB site to become familiar with the Clans, to know how to communicate with the Clan, and to make sure that Clan and House Summits are aware of their recruits and doing what they need to help these people enjoy themselves and find a place in the Club.

I've got a huge headache right now, and I totally lost my train of thought. I'll try and complete what I was trying to pass on when I can. Apologies for an abrupt ending.


15-08-2007 23:42:15

Aabsdu -

*clears throat*

Ok, I'll make a few enemies here, but I agree with
most of what BF said, in a sense

I think, and have thought since I was PCON under Sarin
(that's about... ten months) that the Envoy System is
useless. Now, I DO THINK that Envoys are good, but I
think the society is a "waste of space". Clans could
easily have a clan envoy that emails the younger
members and tells them what to do, but I see no reason
why there has to be a society for them to be in. I
think the entire envoy system should be ran by the
clans, basically

I also agree that only a clan envoy would be nice. Not
only does it mean less positions to worry about
filling, but it means the clan envoys will have to
make sure they are doing something. If they can't
handle it, they can freely hire others to help them

I also like SA auto promotions.

So, I think the envoy system should be handed over to
the clans, I think house envoys could be dissolved
(although I just like the idea, I could change my
mind), and I like SA promotions :)

Begin the rebutting/defending :P

Dismal -

I think that the Envoys being a society is kind of pointless. The Rollmaster of many clans, are House Envoys. I think that with the purpose of the Rollmaster position being pointless, that the Rollmaster should be renamed to Envoy, and making it become an official position. What Envoys do for clans, train the younger members, is enough to be considered an official leadership position in my book. And no, I'm not doing this out of greed or want of position.

I disagree with only have six KCEs, and having them take over the Envoys' job. That would make them have the work of two, or in the case of Taldryan, three houses full of recruits to regularly email and contact and whatnot. I know it was mentioned about delegates, but that would be pointless. People would fail to be recognized, seeing as the society wouldn't have House Envoy positions. I know Envoys rarely get recognized now, but what's the point of taking away that sliver? I like the system as it is now, although making Envoys an official position instead of a society seems a logical thing to do.


21-08-2007 00:34:11

Are members not currently a part of the Society of Envoys allowed to participate in such a riveting discussion? As a former House Envoy, I have a few opinions of my own.


21-08-2007 15:21:47

I'm not opposed to it. Any ideas for helping new members out are welcome, no matter who they're from.


23-08-2007 00:40:15

By all means, please join in.


24-08-2007 14:38:38

I agree with what Aabsdu, Braecen, and others said about having only six Clan Envoys and that "Envoy" should be a position, not a "society." If that is implemented, the position of KCB may not be necessary and the Clan Envoys will work with the Headmaster and the Clan they are assigned to. I also agree with what Braecen said about the Clan Envoy having to be at least the rank of an Equite 2 (possibly even lower this to Equite 1) and having the experience of a position at or above Quaestor. The Envoy will be the first point of contact and needs to be more experienced than a GRD who has been in the DJB for two months - having a newcomer welcome and inform newcomers... doesn't make that much sense, in my opinion.

Having "House Envoys" only creates a large layer of unnecessary "fat" that the Clan leaders must go through. Some fat is necessary to keep an animal warm, but muscle actually provides better insulation. Even though I was formerly a House Envoy and enjoyed working as one, I do not think they are absolutely necessary. The Clan Envoy and House leaders should be able to handle the newcomers.

I also agree with others in that the position of "Rollmaster" should be deleted.

If a member wants to be recognized, they should get involved with various House and Clan projects or they could even apply for a position on the Dark Council Staff (Magistrate, Praetor, Fiction Staff, Wiki Staff, whatever). You do not need a position to be recognized; that's a myth.

SA auto promotions. I apologize if it has already been said, but I propose that any Journeyman who wishes may stay with the Shadow Academy until the rank of Protector and be promoted automatically, or, for those uninterested in the Shadow Academy, an Apprentice may join a House. That seems sensible enough to me.