W. for Vendetta


11-09-2006 19:39:24

I'd already moved out to the West coast, but I grew up in Manhattan and my entire family was a half mile from the towers when they fell. It still fills me with pain and rage when I see that footage.

Anyway, a prayer for the lost and their surviving loved ones. May they have peace.

btw, has anyone seen 'Loose Change,' the 9/11 conspiracy documentary that's been getting a whole lotta press lately? I just watched it. It's...inflammatory.


12-09-2006 00:41:30

Conspiracy theories are mostly just a way for people to try find an excuse for why these things happened. Subconsciously, of course. No human in their right mind can comprehend how people can commit such atrocities on innocents. Yes, we all hear stories of the Holocaust, or attacks on other countries, but when thousands of people die in New York City, Washington D.C., and Pennsylvania, it is a bit of a shocker. I was watching the CNN Pipeline replay of the entire day earlier, and the news anchor was convinced at first that it had to be a mistake; something was wrong with the navigation systems of the planes. Even after the second tower was hit, he said that something must be messing with their systems, and it took a guy he was interviewing via telephone to say "Even if their systems were messed up, the second plane would have noticed the flames and smoke" and tell him that it was on purpose. It just doesn't make sense to people. It's the United States of America... New York City, one of the most famous cities on the planet... The Pentagon, where the defense of the country is controlled from. The general feeling was that people don't hijack planes anymore, and no one could nor would certainly be able to use American planes to kill thousands of Americans civilians-- women, children, infants, elderly. Prior to 9/11, there had been no great disaster like this since Pearl Harbor. Yeah, there was the first WTC bombing and the Oklahoma City Bombing-- both horrible, devastating events, but nothing near the scale of 9/11. Something that large and deadly would surely be discovered by our CIA and foiled by the FBI-- that was the concensus of many. It's America, the world's sole superpower. It can't happen. It's impossible. That's how many people felt--and how many people still fell.
They're scared, and they don't understand. They point to certain oddities in how things played out-- the towers imploding as if it was a planned demolition, one building blowing up and smoke arising from it before the second tower was even hit, etc. They look for something, anything to point a finger and what they think is more believeable. In their minds, only a vast conspiracy involving inside men and high-level authorities could have pulled off an attack on our financial and military capitals. Only someone operating from within could have managed to wipe out nearly 3000 people in a single day. Someone operating from a cave in the Middle East couldn't possibly manage to perform such a heinous act without the approval and aid of those in power within the country. They can't fathom had entirely dangerous the world was. At that moment, the United States of America realized that it had no special amnesty from attacks on its own soil and civilians; it was vulnerable.

That is why the September 11th attacks and the subsequent attacks on London and Madrid really hit the public hard. It's almost as if people expected there to be bombing in random cities throughout the Middle East and Africa and such. But the idea of peacetime attacks taking place in places like New York City and London was just unthinkable. The fact that civilians in these powerful, 'modern' nations would be targetted and murdered en masse just doesn't make sense to a lot of people. So they have to come up with their own answers and theories. They have to find a way to explain it to themselves, and someone other to blame than a man hiding in a cave somewhere.

What's truly sad is that terrorism has really been the thing that has defined this generation. Ten years ago, it would be difficult to find a child in elementary school who would tell you what 'terrorism' was. Words like 'Al Qaida' and 'Bin Laden' and 'Anthrax' would not mean much to them. Ten years ago, airports were sometimes just a place to hang out, where anyone could come and meet you at the gate-- one might remember an opening scene in the film Dogma where they two chief characters are sitting outside an airport gate watching people as they come off. The only fears a child would have of flying is that it might get hit by lightning or something and crash.
I really feel that that innocence has been lost. Many children really, sadly, have a firm grasp on what is going on. They have more to be afraid of. I remember the morning it happened very clearly, as many of us do. I lived on the west coast, right next to Vandenberg Air Force Base (the base property began less than a mile from my backyard). We were on the way to school when one of the towers collapsed; I didn't quite understand what was happening at first via radio-- I heard the Twin Towers were hit, and thought not too much of it until I heard the Pentagon was hit as well, and then it clicked that something was seriously wrong. Anyways, I just remember being in the school office (my mother was the school nurse) and this little 1st-grader runs in in tears; her father was in Washington, D.C. at the time and she was terrified when she figured out that Washington had been attacked. Such outbursts from the children continued throughout the day, as many of them had parents that worked with the base. The base controls much of the missile defense systems for the West Coast and is one of the primary targets should the USA ever be under full-fledged attack, and was this placed on incredibly high alert. These children had to go past barricades, military jeeps, and many soldiers carrying automatic weapons just to get to and from their house. The base's middle school, located just outside its front case, had armed soldiers standing outside it before and after school every single schoolday for three years. Having to walk past armed guards daily just to attend your middle school in nice, sunny, coastal California--- it really got to some people.
I think it is too early to predict the long-term effects this could have on the psyche of the generation, but it is definitely having an effect. These children really know what terror is, whether they have military families or not. And, really, an 8-year old shouldn't have to spend some time thinking about the scary things out there, but they do. And I truly think that this is one of the larger long-term tragedies of that horrific day.

Alright. I'm sorry for rambling. But it has been a long day and I just needed to vent. ;)

Ylith Pandemonium

12-09-2006 15:00:26

just do what we all do...blame bush for wanting Iraqi oil too bad to have some twisted attack planned so he could
get his cowboy hat and ride on to iraq...yee haw...!

personally...I find the affair Clinton had with Lewinski more amusing...

anyway...enough lame jokes and finger pointing...let me tell you my story...

I just got home from school and my dad told me the towers were under attack. I watched it and when I saw it I felt
nothing. Numb, sort to speak.

towers were bombarded, towers collapsed (a tad bit too easy for my taste...I blame the cowboy). and I watched it
as if I watched a movie...I guess thats European soberness.

after ten days of watching the same damn thing over and over again I was sick of it. The whole thing didnt mean anything
anymore and to me it was just as bad as some blue wonder cleaning aid commercial.

the reason why people no longer care about the war on terror, war on iraq or afghanistan, or even Bin Laden is because
of one small thing. We are sick of it...really...enough is enough...after five years we still glance upon that
now pretty large parking space which used to hold about every financial stuff in the world. And all we do is sob and blame

oh no...let me rephrase that.... AMERICA sobs and blames others.

Americans usually have their pride...for some...I cant blame them, they have a nice home to be thankfull for, and to
survive in a country runned by Bush...I'd believe in God aswell...

Though some patriots really have to snap back to reality. I aint here to point my finger or to diss people. It's just my
stomach wants to empty itself everytime I hear some redneck say: "I'll die for mah flag!"

Screw the flag and do something usefull...while you guys are sobbing over 9/11 people die dayly in Iraq and countries
who dont even want to be part of this are taking casualties as well, just so Bush can fill his pockets...oh yeah...sweet
sweet alliance...

so...now I'll end my ranting (god this feels good...really..) with one word of advice...

vote for a new president and get organized...else there wont be any America left to bless....(no I aint a terrorist...but
do you think they will just watch and do nothing? hehe....always expect the worst...)

heh...this feels good...to those who are offended...sorry about that...this thread gave me a reason to vent everything
I feel about Bush and America...thanks for the shrink session :P


12-09-2006 17:29:10

We sob because 3000 completely innocent lives were wiped out in mere hours without any just cause, without any declaration of war, and without any regard at all for human life. While I do admit that there are those like the current President who did use certain things to their advantage (Mr. Bush's recent speech furthering the point), that is not all it is. I for one was against invading Iraq, and am still against the invasion. However, I was totally behind invading Afghanistan and killing the bastards who supported the murder of 2-year-old Christine Hanson, WWII veteran Reverend Francis Grogan, father-of-two Commander Robert Dolan, firefighter Joseph Angelo, 20-year-old college student Deora Bodley, new father and security guard Francisco Bourdier, and 2,990 others.

I am not condoning and not saying that I don't care about those being killed in the Iraqi conflict. Many--not all--of the murderers over there have grown (post-invasion) connections with those who murdered civilians of the United States and 49 other nations on September 11th, 2001, and whose allies subsequently murdered more civilians in London, Madrid, Istanbul, and other places in recent years.

When a few hundred people had to choose between burning alive or jumping to their deaths, there is nothing sober or movie-like about it. This is a real man, one of hundreds, that fell or jumped from the top of the World Trade Center. One person falling to their deaths hit and killed a firefighter trying to move people out of the way to safety.

Explain this 'European soberness' when there are videos and pictures of people in Germany and France staring in shock and disbelief and TV screens and newspaper when the attacks happened. Or in Italy were hundreds mourned with the Catholic Pope. Or when a few relatives of mine in Ireland burst into tears after seen an image of dozens of people trapped above where one of the planes hit, hanging out of windows in the WTC and trying to signal for help. Or to those in Britain and Spain who still mourn for those lost in the terrorist attacks on their nations.

It was not just a place that 'held every financial stuff in the world' and is not just a parking place. We mourn at the ruins that had symbolized American ingenuity and labor. We mourn at the place that symbolized the service of our armed forces. We mourn at a field where a group of individuals decided they were not going to let these monsters kill more people and sacrificed themselves in an attempt to save others.

Perhaps it would have taken more chaos and death for you to actually care that 3000 people were murdered in cold blood, hm? Like if Bin Laden's entire plan had followed through on that day as originally scheduled. The Library Tower in Los Angeles (tallest building on our west coast), the White House, the U.S. Capitol Building, Westminster Palace in London, and the Tower Bridge in London were all scheduled to be hit on September 11th too, but were aborted or postponed by Bin Laden and the hijackers. If the death toll climbed to 5000 civilians and groups of government leaders would you then permit us to mourn the dead? To still be shaken by atrocities? Will the people of London and Madrid not be allowed to still mourn the civilians killed in their bombings because it was even fewer than had died on 9/11? Had the recently-foiled massive terrorist attack over the summer taken place and who knows how many thousands died, five years from now would we not be able to still be sad about it? We use words like 'tragedy' and 'atrocity' and 'horror' because they go away or mend themselves; these things never do. Yeah, they get better, but there's always a scar.

Do not judge this nation for a war its leader thrust it into and the majority of which has now realized it was a mistake, suckered into it by faulty information supplied by our leaders and out of fear that our children and brothers and neighbors and friends could come under attack again. Do not dismiss the deaths of 3000 normal, hard-working, every-day people--just about all of which had nothing to do with what our government and military orders--for what the current Administration's foreign policy is.

If you disagree with the war in Iraq--I sure as hell do, and the majority of the country is now saying it was a mistake as well-- then good for you. Hopefully in the American elections this year, power in our Congress will shift and we will see some improvements. Hopefully the next administration will be able to fix the damages of the current, and hopefully the term "bipartisanship" will return into Washington, D.C., someday. If and when it does, however, we will still mourn the 3000 people massacred on that morning, and remember everyone who stood up to help. Even if our unity after the attacks was just momentary, it was still remarkable, and both the heroes and the victims will continue to be honored for as long as this generation lives.


13-09-2006 12:49:02

Ofcourse you can't expect a declaration of war when it's your own gov screwing you up.

You should REALLY ask yourself some fundamental questions about what 9-11 and what has been going on afterward means.
If you really believe what the 911 commission wrote I suggest you to actualy read it and do some homework on your own, you'll find yourself wondering how soo many poeple can believe that report.

Or if you don't feel like doing THAT much of work (reading the report alone is a feat) you can go here http://www.911truthbristol.com/ and find some expert, not just kids like for lose changes, explaining why the whole report is a joke.

I'm honestly tired of listen people throwing the blame on Bin Laden and Saddam, even after EVEN the bloody CNN had to bow down and admit the GWB lied to his country over and over.

Ylith Pandemonium

13-09-2006 13:37:06

damn...they have done a sh!tload of research...



13-09-2006 13:59:04

People who blame Saddam for any connections whatsoever to 9/11 are idiots. Saddam, like most Middle Eastern leaders including the President of Iran, hate Al Qaeda and Bin Laden.

I have no doubt in my mind that the federal government received some kind of warning before the terrorist attacks occurred, but it was nothing blatantly saying "New York City and Washington D.C. will be blown up this week". And I believe the government is at fault for not further pursuing the threats-- it goes back to the whole "we're an invulnerable superpower" train of thought. I also have no doubt in my mind that Osama Bin Laden was directly responsible for the attacks as well.

I admit that there are a good deal of suspicions surrounding the attack, primarily how the Twin Towers collapsed and the immense amount of peculiarity surrounding the collapse of WTC Building Seven. I do not, however, believe that the U.S. government was itself directly responsible for the attacks.

If the U.S. is at fault, I believe it would most likely be similar to the conspiracy theories surrounding the Pearl Harbor attacks. Many people contend that the government had plenty of prior warning before the attack occurred and had purposefully let it happen as an excuse to get the American people to rally around entering the Second World War. If this is true, while the U.S. government would indeed share the blame, the Japanese would still be held responsible for planning and carrying out the attacks at Pearl Harbor.

The fact of the matter is, there will probably never be any conclusive answers. Controversies still surround things as far back as the USS Maine disaster at the turn of the last century to the sinking of the Lusitania to Pearl Harbor to the Gulf of Tonkin incident to the 2001 terrorist attacks. They'll always exist.

Kaine Mandaala

13-09-2006 14:34:34

Be careful that this doesn't become a Political Bashing thread.