Star Wars vs Star Trek.

Lokasena

29-04-2006 13:59:21

My friends and I have discussed till we where blue in the face...

I'd like your opinion. real ones. not like "Star Wars wins cause Trek is dumb..."

the trick in this discussion is Star Wars has the whole Force thing but Trek is technologicaly more advanced I think.

So.....

Could Enterprise Raptor class phasers cut right through a StarDestroyer?

Could Vader choke Picard from across the view screen?

Can a light saber outfight a Bat'leth?

Hit me with your thoughts on this one....... thnx..!

Asani Vosa

29-04-2006 14:24:59

I think Trek would winn...
It's on a much lager scale than Wars...
The Federation alone has more ships than the Empire and the Rebbels together.
Let alone if other Trek species would join.
I name a Borg or Species 8472...

Plus Trek men and women are sexier....

Kiss kiss, bang bang.

khan

29-04-2006 14:39:01

In space Trek ships can win without too many efforst because their ships are made to made manouvers that only small starfighters are capable of with will make targeting a hell even with the relative big size of the ship ( a Sovereign class for example). Their weapons also are specificaly made to adapt to shields and energy frequencies making even a SSD's double shields pointless.

BUT on the ground, trek personell won't stand a change even without putting force users in the field because Star Wars soldiers are way more trained for this kind of situations while Starfleet's officers are eighter not trained enough nor equipped enough (tropper's armour and stuff).

Werdna Elbee

29-04-2006 15:51:40

Star Wars spans across an entire galaxy, while Star Trek is just one tiny spot. Strength in numbers!!!

Baron Zarco

29-04-2006 21:13:50

The last time there was a Star Trek question it was shut down. You are probably in trouble over this. LOL

Anyway, to answer your questions in the order they were asked...


Could Enterprise Raptor class phasers cut right through a StarDestroyer?

YES, but my sense is that there are more Star Destroyers at the time of ANH.



Could Vader choke Picard from across the view screen?

YES, but at least according to the Star Wars RPG put out by WOTC, Vader would have to get him on screen. That means one captain would get choked and then the cat would be out of the bag.


Can a light saber outfight a Bat'leth?

YES, if you mean cut through it. As for outfight it, it depends upon the weilders. According to our stated doctrine not just anyone can wield a lightsber without seriously endangering themself.



I will close by making a general comment. I think either the Empire or the Rebellion or the Old Republic with clone troopers would smoke the Federation because the Federation is not set up for planetary conquest and large scale battles.

Lokasena

30-04-2006 11:22:57

The last time there was a Star Trek question it was shut down.† You are probably in trouble over this. LOL

Anyway, to answer your questions in the order they were asked...
Could Enterprise Raptor class phasers cut right through a StarDestroyer?

YES, but my sense is that there are more Star Destroyers at the time of ANH.
Could Vader choke Picard from across the view screen?

YES, but at least according to the Star Wars RPG put out by WOTC, Vader would have to get him on screen.† That means one captain would get choked and then the cat would be out of the bag.
Can a light saber outfight a Bat'leth?

YES, if you mean cut through it.† As for outfight it, it depends upon the weilders.† According to our stated doctrine not just anyone can wield a lightsber without seriously endangering themself.
I will close by making a general comment.† I think either the Empire or the Rebellion or the Old Republic with clone troopers would smoke the Federation because the Federation is not set up for planetary conquest and large scale battles.



The federation not set up for large scale battles.....? :blink:
Ever since the dominion war starfleet has been armed to the teeth.
Plus the whole Alpha quadrant is alligned with each other.

The Federation, Cardasians, Klingons, Ferengie and (my personal favorite) the Romulans.
and that's just the Alpha quadrant.

So......?

Baron Zarco

30-04-2006 14:50:41

The comment was taken somewhat out of context. I wrote "planetary conquest and large scale battles." What I meant by joining those two terms with the word "and" was to say that, at least as far as I have seen, while the Federation may be very competent in maintaining control of space itself they do not seem to have devoted as much as Star Wars governments have to controlling the ground itself.

I could elaborate but feel funny doing so on a Star Wars message board. That is, in any event, what I meant.

Anyway, someone like Darth Sidious would have everyone in the Star Trek world (including "Q" but except the borg) so f**cked up they would not even know where to go next or what to do. He would be a master at manipulating the various byzantine legal systems of the Star Trek races (again, except the borg).

Anyway Star Trek is for "trekking" and Star Wars is for "warring." It's just two different specialities.

Rich Gun

30-04-2006 16:56:39

Could Enterprise Raptor class phasers cut right through a StarDestroyer?

No I donít think so because of the shields of a Star Destroyer are for war agents the rebellion and its enemies plus your forgetting the Empires most powerful weapon the Death star. The Death Star could wipe out the entire Federation with one blast.

Could Vader choke Picard from across the view screen?

Yes Vader could choke Picard from across the view screen as shown in the movies but Vader would have to see Picard on the view screen in order to do so.

Can a light saber outfight a Bat'leth?

Yes a light saber can outfight a Batíleth because it can cut through the blast doors of a ship. But the person welding the saber would have to be good with it or risk killing them selves.



And with Jedi Star fighters, X-Wings and TIE Fighters at the emperors call. The Federation wouldnít stand a chance.

Malik

30-04-2006 18:32:29

well I don't know about most of this because I don't watch that much star trek but I'm pretty sure that the federation doesn't have more ships than the empire did in it's prime... the numbers I've heard are 25-30,000 imperial star destroyers, 10 or so super star destroyers and a whole lot of smaller ships and even if star trek tech is better I'd say there's greater strength in numbers.

Baron Zarco

30-04-2006 20:01:50

That is what I meant earlier when originally responded and said that while a Raptor phaser may cut through a Star Destroyer there are more Star Destroyers than Federation ships at the time of ANH.

Aghasett

30-04-2006 21:39:41

The number of star destroyers is irrelevant. A few Defiant Class destroyers, some cloaked Birds of Prey, maybe a Sovereign or two -- a 1000 star destroyers would be a day's work. And take just one of many technologies that the Empire doesn't have, like transporters. You could beam anything onto the bridge of an SSD -- a quantum bomb, a few hundred Borg, etc. Or you could just lock onto Vader and beam him into space.

And this notion of ground superiority. True, the Federation doesn't do ground, but why would they? A single starship could stun or vaporize the population of an entire planet. Ground warfare is obsolete to the Federation. Take the Dominion War -- conducted almost entirely as space battles.

Bottom line: Trek wins by a mile. However, as Star Wars took place a "long long time ago" -- possibly thousands of years -- New Republic technology would be at a whole other level in the Trek timeframe.

Baron Zarco

30-04-2006 21:48:53

Cloaked ships - Use the Force to find them.

Transporters - They do not work through shields.

Ground Warfare - Without it a government cannot defend its own installation that are necessary for any long term survival, e.g. manufacturing, resources, replenishment, command, tax base, population centers, etc. I am not saying that the Federation's specialized and powerful ships could not wreak havcoc over the course of days, weeks, even months but against an opponent that seizes long term resources in the form of planets, they eventually fail.

Also, use Interdictor Cruisers to snatch Federation ships out of warp where they would be overwhelmed with numbers. Hell, the Federation does not even have fighter craft as far as I know.

I would compare the Federation to a very competent striker in the UFC. I would compare the Star Wars governments, by contrast, to grapplers. A striker is depending upon a lucky punch/kick or two. A grappler neutralizes the strikers talents when he closes. From there, it's ground and pound.

Lokasena

01-05-2006 04:41:32

I never said Empire vs Federation.....
I said Trek vs Wars.....

Dominion transporters can beam through anything...
Romulans have Scorpion-class attack fighters
not that it matters
Federation has multi targetting Phaser banks. They would pick of those X-wings and Tie's Like there was no tomorrow.

And it's safe to say species 8472 are Force sensitive.
Let one of those buggers loose on a death star... that would be fun...

so.......

Muz Ashen

01-05-2006 09:14:28

Militarily, the Federation of Star Trek would be summarily conquered, if not destroyed by a Star Wars Empire. The Federation has a smaller fleet less fighter craft, et cetera...while they do well against the other Trek fleets of similar constitution, they would fail miserably against a fully realized navy, such as the Empire had. They'd simply be swarmed to death.

I like how the chuckleheads always claim that ST tech is greater. The only advantages in technology that the Federation have are transporters (made necessary by their lack of smaller craft), and food replicators (which still require raw materials to operate).

On the other hand, the empire made use of cloning and the motherf**king Death Star.

Further, if you wanna geek it up, take a look at the published statistics of ships from either. They have power expenditure of weapons, which is a good way to rate destructive power.

Do this, and you'll find that Boba Fett's Slave 1 (a personal craft!) has almost ten times more powerful weapons than the bloody Enterprise of TNG timeframe.

!!!OMG WTFPWNT!!!

"Tarkin, move the fleet to Earth, commence primary ignition on those communist federation twits in san francisco."

All of a sudden, Picard and crew are reworking their show into 'Firefly'...or 'Lost in Space'. :P

'Beaming Vader into space' would do NOTHING. He's already in a space suit... and could use the force to grab hold of something and get back inside. Remember ANH, where he pilots a TIE? Those have no life support, remember?

and lightsaber versus bat'leth? Did you smoke yourself retarded?

Also, next mention of the Borg will earn this thread the same treatment as the last thread that did so.


I like star trek...i really do. but they're only good in their environment...not in the gritty, martial space of star wars. Hell, the names alone should have cued you into that bit.

Baron Zarco

01-05-2006 12:01:22

Please don't hurt 'em hammer!

Anshar

01-05-2006 15:45:35

Ah, what the hell, I'll toss in a few words on this.

First off, this is probably one of the more civil discussions on this matter that I've ever seen.

I have seen the varoius arguments posted here before, but I do agree that, in the end, these are two different things we're talking about: exploration vs. conquest.

Most certainly, a lightsaber could cut through probably any hand weapons in the Star Trek universe. Vader could force choke Picard; he did it to Ozzel through a viewscreen, so doing it to Picard would follow the same pattern.

In terms of technology, both "sides" seem to have advantages and disadvantages. As for the fighters, I think you have to take into consideration that many fighters in the Star Wars universe also carry warheads and pack a bigger punch than one might expect. As for the tracking phaser banks on the Enterprise, while I'm certain they could do a great deal of damage to the numbers of fighters, can they keep up with the unpredictable piloting of a living pilot (as opposed to a droid brain)? If you watch DS9, the USS Odyssey falls pray to fighters, or at least fighter like craft (granted, one was a suicide attack).

Cloaks in Star Wars are expensive and block everyone from seeing in or out; however, cloaks in Star Trek don't permit firing when actually cloaked.

So, in the end, I really think it is a draw; based solely on the fact that you can't really compare them. But, if you want to see a funny take on the matter, go here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4

I'll be honest. I like Star Wars more than Trek; but, I'm not anti-Trek, either.

khan

01-05-2006 22:17:19

I think everyone assume SW Vs ST as Empire Vs UFP and by that some of the advantages above mentioned are true about the possible superiority of SW but if we put in the field other races like Romulans wich never play fair, you can expect some of the most devastating weapons a scifi has ever seen. They have things to rip the very fabric of space meaning one small ship can clean a sector alone, regardless of the number of ISD or else presente there. Not to mention they do have the numbers to even military occupy a planet. They are an Empire of their own in a galaxy much more populated then the SW seems to be.

I don't know, if both universes come one vs another I think they'll just blow each other the hell out of existance heh

Lokasena

02-05-2006 04:17:10

Finally.....
thank you Khan.....!!!
You seem to be the only one who undertands what I mean.

Trek isn't just the Federation. (Odessey was before the dominion wars)
A deathstar is only efective against a stationary target. Trek vessels are far more manueverable.

Every one is defending Empire as the ultimate power.
Lest we forget they were beaten by a rag tag band of rebels...

I doubt the Maquis could take over the Federation.... :w00t:

I like both Wars and Trek...
But it seems to me Trek is more about technologie (SF)
Wars is more about inner power (fantasy) with knights and prinsesses and the Force.

I think both are exellent. there is no need to be calling me names over this, Muz.
I just wanted an objective view of fellow Dark Siders.
Clearly I came to the wrong place.
I thought that no subject would be taboo... pitty... :(

Muz Ashen

02-05-2006 09:05:37

Actually, the Empire fell due to in-fighting.

Vader killed Palpatine, which because of crappy planning, fragmented the Empire into remnants.

The Empire could have survived another loss of a Death Star, matter of fact, it would have rallied more support.

But yeah, I get drawn into these discussions very, very often...the Empire vs. Federation...and to be honest, i'm bloody well sick of them. Maybe because of the blatant disregard for evidence one way or the other...but it ends up like religious debate, and that's just lame.

A tv show universe doesn't have to be superior to all others in quasi-militaristic aspects in order to enjoy it, and that seems to get lost on people. I like them all: Star Wars, Farscape, Star Trek, Firefly, and a slew of others (although I refuse to watch Stargate SG-1 because they kinda killed Farscape, which I love, but that is a separate matter...)

Hey, and Lokasena... 'chuckleheads' is a term of endearment. ;)

Cal Tecontic

02-05-2006 14:02:19

First of all, I would like to say...bravo. This is by far one of the most interesting reads that I have come across. I read the first two posts and was immediately hooked. That being said, I feel that this topic is probably over. All points have been made and I just wanted to stress one point that Lokasena made.

Star Trek is a realistic, technology driven universe.

Star Wars is a mystical, fantasy driven universe that happens to be in space.

I think that it is just a matter of your preference. Do you like the technology, the exploration of science? Or do you like the unexplained, the mystical part about the universe?

Your choice...

Muz Ashen

02-05-2006 14:20:17

See, i think that Star Wars was a far more likely and realistic scenario (excepting that Force stuff).

There's a dictator in power, a rebellion who loses people left and right, the ships are dirty, the people are poor, etc. Everything looks lived in... like the Alien series. I could see a future like the one shown in Star Wars...

In Star Trek, we have a communist government (proven time and again throughout histroy to be an incompatable government system with Humanity's greed), everything is perfectly clean almost all the time, and very very idealistic. It doesn't mesh with the humanity we all know. And 3-4 hundred years won't be enough to change us to an entirely different people, anyway.

I loved holodecks, transporters, replicators, etc... but as far as the rest... it just seemed very... plastic to me. There's no spirituality, no humanity in there for me... so it was very detached...much like his character, Spock.

It's like Roddenberry just used the program to showcase his social convictions and theories. Which is done by everyone... but it's brutally obvious that Gene was bludgeoning his audience with his communist and atheist viewpoint...

At least Lucas's sexism isn't nearly as evident. His fear of a police state is, however...but it works better for a story, I think.

khan

02-05-2006 15:00:17

An even more realistic serie was Firefly, wich I loved .. too bad it was canned by Fox =/

Aghasett

03-05-2006 14:11:20

but it's brutally obvious that Gene was bludgeoning his audience with his communist and atheist viewpoint...



Brutally obvious? Communist atheist viewpoint? Star Trek? huh?! That's so off the mark I don't even know where to begin :P But I agree that Trek's "hermetically sealed" environs are phony and off-putting. SW's aesthetic is much cooler.

Tyno

03-05-2006 17:31:56

I can't help but read this as I see these kinds of discussions a lot.

The thing I have noticed here is you say Star Wars vs. Star Trek but really I most see Empire vs. Federation.

If it were Truly Star Wars VS Star Trek it would contain every aspect of both universes.
After careful study I have come to the conclusion that there would me massive destruction on both sides probably ending with the entire Star Trek galaxy destroyed and about 70% of Star Wars destroyed but Star Wars is going to win out for a few reasons which I will now state.

1. The force, There is nothing in Star trek that can truly compare to the power of the force and the first few reason all are based on the force.
Now if the entire Star Wars galaxy fought we would have temporary alliance between the light and dark sides these combined would be an extremely powerful force to be reckoned with. Think 100 sith focusing at one time could force crush Ship from star trek not to mention how badly they would defeat the trek races in ground and close quarters combat.
2. The massive industrial power of the Star Wars universe, they can pump out huge amounts ISDs and SSDs faster then any trek race could construct their ships. Also think about galactic populations we know the Star wars universe has about 50x the population and ships need crews so they have plenty of people for them. If we want to go even deeper think of Kamino cloning tech. They could just keep pumping out army after army of fully trained fully equipped clones for crewing ships and fighting. If we go back into the Force category anyone remember the Star Forge it could construct ships in a quarter of the time normally taken. Yes it was destroyed but it is Star Wars tech and another could be built.
3. Raw military Power, If you have ever looked at the weapon power ratings on Star Wars weapons and Star Trek weapons you will find most Star Wars weapons are much more powerful.
A lot of people bring up the transporter but we don't know if they could work through Star Wars Shields and brings up another Force point could Force users disrupt a transporter? I'd think they could. Then just for added power we have the Death Stars, the Sun Crusher, The world Devastators and who knows how many other super weapons of untold power.

These are just some reasons as I dont feel like taking days to list them all.

khan

03-05-2006 20:02:46

Hmm the thing that will square all the odds in favor of Star Trek ? Doesn't matter the number of ISD, VSD, SSD, hell throw in even a few Eclyspese and Sov. Place Jedis and Siths alltogheter to do one thing but Trek is gonna win with one single letter.. Q =P

Tyno

03-05-2006 20:21:23

Hmm the thing that will square all the odds in favor of Star Trek ? Doesn't matter the number of ISD, VSD, SSD, hell throw in even a few Eclyspese and Sov. Place Jedis and Siths alltogheter to do one thing but Trek is gonna win with one single letter.. Q =P



Q huh?
Thing is would the Q care enough to do anything about it.
Also would the Q have any power in the Star wars a galaxy?
We don't know how the Q powers conflict with the force so force users may be able to fight them.
Guess the real problem is we dont know enough about the Q to say if they would tip the favor of the battle.

Lokasena

04-05-2006 03:54:18

Well....
I don't know about you....but I'm satisfied.

thanks guys...! :D

Kelric

04-05-2006 12:35:05

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

'nuff friggin said

Phasers blasting through the bow of a Star Destroyer? Hard to imagine after reading this. Also addresses the "Q factor."

Muz Ashen

04-05-2006 16:28:48

Thanks, Kelric.

That whole site is great... a real physicist who takes the time to debunk the whole notion of Federation superiority using whatever science has.

and for those of you too lazy to read the whole site, he says that the empire would kick the snot out of the fed.

Further, he has the flame mail archives, where people have tried repeatedly (and unsuccessfully) to win this debate with him.

Great reading.

khan

04-05-2006 19:18:57

Muz the whole thing is pointless. Like any piece of paper wrote by ANYONE about what's better then what all that matters is the opinion of the writer and his ability to make believable his opinion.
I won't even bother to go read a site about this issue but I'm quite sure you can find hundred of sites that, with the same ability and credibility, tells you Trek will win.
Is that necessarly true ? hell no. Does it even matter ? Lol bloody no. Let's keep those so called expert aside shallwe ?

On second thought I think I'll give it a look to see how he expect to underpower Q (wich doesn't really need a reason to do something =P) at the point of make a god beatable heh

Anshar

04-05-2006 23:08:09

To comment on something a bit back...

Star Trek certainly has some Communist like qualities to it, or at least the Federation does. Everyone is working to do something they enjoy and want to do, which happens to benefit mankind as a whole, not because of material greed (though it is damn greedy of Picard to want to explore space and leave nothing for anyone else :P ). "What, you want to clean outhouses for a living? Well, we don't have those, but you can clean the decks of a Klingon Bird of Prey!" (ok, so I made that up, but you get my drift).

As for the atheistic nature of it, I've noticed it in Star Trek as well, but it is not violently anti-religious. Basically, if someone wants to be religious, everyone else is basically like "ok, that's cool." The Bajorans were very religious, and Worf did some spiritual stuff as well, but it was all largely a private matter.

To say that it could not happen, I think, is going a bit to far. My understanding of things is that the new Earth was born out of another World War, coupled with the arrival of an alien race. Whose to say that these events, coupled together, would not drastically change humanity? I would put forth that it is highly unlikely to happen, but not impossible.

Oh, and speaking of holodecks, I have to agree with the statement of Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert. If and when mankind creates the holodeck, it will doom humanity (in his words: "It would be hard to convince me to leave the holodeck when I'm getting a massage from Cindy Crawford and her simulated twin sister.")

Aghasett

05-05-2006 02:33:37

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

'nuff friggin said



Those tech manual stats he uses are ridiculous.

Take the tech manual's Slave 1 specs: "Seismic charge mines are roughly 12000 megatons." That's an absurd number. The bomb at Hiroshima was 15 kilotons. So one seismic charge would be 800,000,000 times stronger than the Hiroshima bomb -- enough to destroy the earth many many times over. Slave 1 just doesn't have that kind'a punch.

High-Yield Detonation Effects Simulator:
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html

Muz Ashen

05-05-2006 10:52:13

I'm not a scientist...

But i do know that you need a higher yield in space due to the lack of air, etc to carry the damage. And decimating asteroids like that is pretty hard-core. But then again, I might be off... Odds are that he's using *published* statistics for the stuff...

If you want to dispute him, feel free to email him, and let us know how it goes.

Kelric

05-05-2006 17:00:41

lol, how many rural Japanese fishing villages = 1 asteroid cluster? 800Million sounds like a good number :-P


That website merely illustrates the surface effect, I don't think the Atom Bomb penetrated very deep into the Earth. Seismic bombs cut cleanly through asteroids.

Lokasena

05-05-2006 17:48:51

Thanks, Kelric.

That whole site is great... a real physicist who takes the time to debunk the whole notion of Federation superiority using whatever science has.

and for those of you too lazy to read the whole site, he says that the empire would kick the snot out of the fed.†

Further, he has the flame mail archives, where people have tried repeatedly (and unsuccessfully) to win this debate with him.

Great reading.



Again you bring Fed against Emp....
I didn't say that...!!!
talk about to lazy to read... <_< lol

Kelric

05-05-2006 22:26:33

Lets add Yuuzhan Vong to the mix.




**Didn't I say I'd lock this when someone said Vong?
--muz

Aghasett

05-05-2006 23:04:47

lol, how many rural Japanese fishing villages = 1 asteroid cluster?† 800Million sounds like a good number :-P



A pre-war population of 350,000 qualifies as something rather larger than a fishing villiage, no?

Lokasena

06-05-2006 05:16:47

uhm...guys...

we're straying from the topic... :ermm:

Rage

11-05-2006 23:48:33

Oh, and speaking of holodecks, I have to agree with the statement of Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert. If and when mankind creates the holodeck, it will doom humanity (in his words: "It would be hard to convince me to leave the holodeck when I'm getting a massage from Cindy Crawford and her simulated twin sister.")


Cant...wait...for...holodecks :P

Lokasena

12-05-2006 06:07:59

what would you rather have...?

holodack or lightsabre....?

Devani

12-05-2006 12:28:15

Holodeck hands down.

Kaine Mandaala

12-05-2006 14:13:52

what would you rather have...?

holodack or lightsabre....?



Lightsabers would only be good if you had the capability to weild it.

The Holodeck is awesome, but I think I'd rather have the spaceship travel of Star Wars over lightsabers or holodecks.

I just wish The Force was real, and that I was one of the few who could use it. That would rock.

Rage

12-05-2006 17:00:44

Don't we all ;)

Aghasett

12-05-2006 20:04:23

With a holodeck, you'd also have the components for a replicator. So I'd take the holodeck, hire Lavar Burton to transition it for me, then replicate myself about $150 billion and hire the Skunk Works to build me a time machine, which is what I really want.

Lokasena

12-05-2006 20:20:21

you'd hire Jordi....?
why?
all he ever does is "reverse the polarity" on every thing.

"Sir, there's something wrong with the tachion emitter" (thare is always something wrong with the damn thing)
"Ow really? Lets reverse the polarity. See if that works." :D

Raidoner

12-05-2006 22:27:16

The Jedi order is based on the order of the Shoulin monks, there was a Star Wars vs. Reality special on the Discovery channel a while back and they had said that most of the force stuff could someday be a reality since some of these monks do claim to levitate themselves and items under deep meditation. (something I would not mind to see).

Baron Zarco

13-05-2006 00:02:00

To Hell with the holodeck. I chafe in the presence of such decadent comfort. Give me the lightsaber!!!