Round 1

Oberst

29-03-2006 01:41:06

So, a while back, Bf ran a competition a bit after the Exodus. In it, we came up with the fictional, historic basis of Tarentum. That a group of Necromancers from the old Sith Empire were exiled during the civil wars. Partly out of disdain. Partly out of fear for their control over death. Originally there were seven. With the Patriarch being Phalanthus (hence the Tarentae also being called "Children of Phalanthus").

There are 3 Keepers left...that we know of. Two are "originals"...Master Tel'Ratha and Master Shade. Descriptions of them will be going out to each of you tomorrow. I found the old docs from the competition that Bf had me look over. The third Keeper is Master Zero, formerly QUA of House Tarentum.

Now, the Keepers have many guardians and agents. The Clan and House Summits and the Tarentae. What I need are ideas for the following : additional agents (some will be listed below that I've conceptualized), and backgrounds for the remaining 4 original Keepers.

Agents I've conceptualized/worked on/drafted:

Arkesh Nilani - "The Ghost Lady" - Assassin and warrior for the Keepers. She is the Matriarch of the Death Dealers, having instructed Oberst directly in using Necromancy in combat, and in advanced combat techniques in general.

*no name yet* - "The Death Knight(s?)" - The Ziggurat that the Keepers are housed in have an "honor guard" of sorts. I figured, I'd steal the ideal of Death Knights, but they'd need a Knight Commander. Someone in charge. Sentient, able to strike with great strength and speed (possible foil for Clansmen in a later campaign, a la Draugr).

Sebastian Tanos - Spymaster - Not only commands the network of spies the Clan uses, his first duty is to keeping the Keepers informed of anything before the Tarentae or Summits know about it.

Urd, Verdandi, Skuld - "Weird Sisters" - Seers for the Keepers. Think Fates and the 3 Witches from Macbeth.


Anyway...input, ideas on expansion, etc, would be greatly appreciated. I'm probably not very coherent right now. Let me know.

Anshar

03-04-2006 20:58:02

I suppose one of the first things to do is to determine how many knights we want to have. I suppose that the number is rather small, though. As for a name, how does something like "Faris Valr" sound. Faris is the Arabic word for knight; valr is Norse for "the dead." So, knight of the dead.

Just a thought. As for the fourth keeper, I'll try to think of a name.

~AK

Sith Bloodfyre

04-04-2006 02:13:53

Just speaking of "Dead" and Norse [Expletive Deleted], in one of my Dark Ages book, about the Norse vampires, they do call themselves the "einherjar." Can't remember what that means, but they think of themselves not as vampires, but Odin's warriors. I'll get that book out and research a bit.

Adien Falaut

04-04-2006 12:27:32

Let me know if there's anything I can help with

Sephiroth Kali

04-04-2006 16:03:32

Is it possible that we could link the Keeper with an Order? They would have been around during the time when Orders were very important, so they could be alligned to an order.

Sith Bloodfyre

04-04-2006 16:46:23

Actually, the Keepers pretty much predate the "Orders," as we know them, so there's no real way to link them to any of the Orders. There is also two "main Keepers," Shade and Tel'Ratha, with additional Keepers in the form of Master Zero (their chief apprentice) and the others who have recently begun to re-emerge (those people Oberst has mentioned). They all have different characteristics, and don't match any specific Order as much as they just represent certain views and aspects of the Force, and existence as a whole.

At this point, though, Masters Shade and Tel'Ratha aren't as "important" to the Clan as a whole, because very few of the Clan know about them specifically. All of Tarentum (fictionally) knows of the Keepers, but as far as any specific details, they are scarce, just because of the nature and history of the Keepers. Some of the agents of the Keepers may be known, or spoken of (in rumors and hearsay), so that's what we're really looking to focus on at the moment.

Go back and read over Oberst's first post, mull over the thoughts and ideas, let the concepts sink in, and let's see if we can't hash out some of their agents. I don't believe they'd have many, and just remember, not all of the ideas that Oberst has mentioned may be used, but they are good places to start from and build upon, if nothing else. Oberst has been working with me on this from the beginning, and probably more than anyone else, he understands what I was working towards.

Also, it would be good to have thoughts on anything, so whatever this stuff brings to mind, any concepts and ideas you have, don't hesitate to bring them up. You don't have to wait ti be given things to help with, we can all just take what is posted, and run with it, and come together and hash out ideas.

Oberst

05-04-2006 23:36:14

So, I did some heavy research on Numerology and the number 7. I knew there was a reason why we picked that number to represent the number of Keepers. Anyway, long story short, there are 7 "veils" or trials that one must uncover to reach enlightenment. Each of the 7 Keepers would represent those trials/veils. The path to enlightenment for our Clan, the path to mastery over Life and Death.

1 (Crown) - Phalanthus - Regal and dominant. The most tangible and intangible of the veils. Holding court over the others in perpetuity.

2 (Wisdom) - Shade - Seated at the right hand of the Crown, Wisdom represents the self-discipline and order.

3 (Cunning/Ambition) - Unknown - The second "Intellectual," Cunning represents a force of creation and destruction. From it, we can breathe life or take it away.

4 (Pain/Sorrow) - Tel'Ratha - Respect can be gained either through love or fear. Pain cultivates respect through fear.

5 (Strength) - Arkesh Nilani - Strength of will, strength of body. Without strength, one bows before all others. Strength is also the retributive arm of the Council. Woe to those who must face her and her agents.

6 (Glory) - Zero - Bow down in praise. Majestic and regal. The counterweight to Pain, one must kneel to Glory should they seek it.

7 (Victory) - Unknown - Let our enemies quake in fear, for from Victory the shadows of all Souls bow down.

There are also three ancillary "seats" who cannot act truly independant, but can serve as a force of reckoning.

8 (Majesty)
9 (Foundation)
10 (Kingdom) - This seat will always be reserved for the Consul.

Rekio Corsair

06-04-2006 13:25:50

I have to say, I rather like the idea of have seven Keepers, each representing trial on the path to greatness. As a side note, I was thinking that the Clan's code or oath could even have seven parts or principles to it, each referring to the veils that the Keepers represent.

As a general heuristic, I'm assuming each of the Keeper's backgrounds and dispositions is portrayed as some exaggerated metaphor for the veil in which they represent. e.g. Phalanthus is the Patriarch, the King, the Master of Masters; thereby representing the Crown, the dominance of leadership, blah blah, etc.

I'll need to see those documents on the current Keepers to ground myself before I can really give any input on what the other 4 might be like. I think I've got quite a few misconceptions brewing.

As for agents, as I recall, Shade and Zero had six undead Imperial Guardsmen with them in the In the Shadows story. This might, in some way, relate to the Death Knights Oberst had mentioned.

However, considering the reclusive nature of the Keepers themselves it would seem more likely that they would employ only one agent as their muscle and "guardian." With this in mind, I could see them empowering a single individual to utilize their collective powers in order to fight a secret war on their behalf. This individual would hold such vast power that they could single-handedly fight entire armies, and as such, there would only be need for one at a time. This could very possibly be the Knight Commander of the Death Knights.

Tying the two ideas together, the Knight Commander might be able to raise slain enemies as pawns of his own (as was the case of the Imperial Guards).

As for names, Tichondrius comes to mind; it sounds bad ass. Unless we want to make Knight Commander a position we give to someone in the Clan. Since, I remember Oberst had talked about making an honor guard of Clansmen.

BTW: Is Arkesh Nilani a Keeper, or a agent of the Keepers? She has been referred to as both.

Sephiroth Kali

06-04-2006 13:40:46

What about GM Vader? Could he take the title of First Commander for those Death Knights? As a GM he meets the requirements of being strong, fast, and #3. As we's no longer active, the title could be disseminated at the behest of the Other six. Or in this case, three.

Oberst

06-04-2006 16:30:17

I guess I should clarify. When Bf and I first worked it out, there were seven Keepers. Two remain in tangible contact with the Clan. Masters Tel'Ratha and Shade. One is a confirmed death, and Master Zero ascended to take his place. The other four are not present. Their whereabouts are unknown. In the place of one of the missing Keepers, Arkesh Nilani acts as a sort of proxy. She can easily act in that regard, as she was their dagger. And Phalanthus' seat remains vacant, until he returns. A regent could possibly attempt to take his seat, but like the Grand Hall of Castle Tarentum...should any attempt to sit upon Master Khyron's throne, they would be violently thrown off, if not outright killed.

Bf had suggested to me in private that 8 could act as Phalanthus' voice, and stand in his place for any rituals. And I am leaning towards 8-10 being actual members of the Clan. I'm wary of placing anymore active Clansmen in the Keeper spots. Zero is the exception since he's been with the Clan since the beginning, and has nearly as much time in the Brotherhood as I have.

I have some ideas of whom would fit for those spots, obviously being an Elder is something I would lean heavily towards in my considerations.

I also don't wish to confuse the Clan's Honor Guard with the Undead Knights. The Knights serve the Keepers, not the Clan. The Honor Guard serves the Clan, and indirectly the Keepers. Remember with the Draugr, Zero and I were fast to attack the Clan at the behest of the Keepers.

Spears

06-04-2006 23:11:31

My main question on this at current is how do envision presenting this material. How we want to present it will have a great deal to do wtih my choices on the various aspects.

One the numbers 7 works for me, althought I question why we then get to 10. If we are going to stretch it beyond 7 we should probably go to 12 as there are 12 levels of power.

On to the Keepers in and of themselves. I am for keeping them strong and mysterious but at the same time I want to make sure the give take remains. At the end I want to be sure people understand the Keepers remain at our discretion and not the other way around. I don't want them becoming a shadowy force that is beyond the scope of the Clan. While things like the run on where great there needs to be a check and balance.

Oberst

06-04-2006 23:24:40

When we first planned out the Keepers, I believe Bf wanted to use 7, since it was a powerful number, coming from the Tremere's focus of using 7. I went a bit deeper with the numerology, and present 10 since there are 10 signals of power. The first 7 are the truly powerful. The other 3 are not so powerful. Hence why not 11 and 12. It isn't the Clan Powers themselves they're teaching us, but how to control and manipulate those powers to achieve those 7 sephiroth.

The Keepers still rely on the Clan to serve as their protection. They are powerful, but should the Clans wish to war with them, they would ultimately lose. In exchange for our protection, they've shown us how to manipluate the boundary between life and death. And they're shrewd. They have not shown us everything, to keep us coming back for more.

Spears

06-04-2006 23:51:14

I understood the concept before I just want to make sure that it is understood by the Clan at large that that is the situation.

But back to presentation how do we want to show the Clan this stuff what kind of format for the most part?

Oberst

07-04-2006 01:27:42

I was thinking a series of small competitions, runons, etc. Information slowly evolving and coming forth.

Sephiroth Kali

07-04-2006 13:28:59

I like the format used in th GJW, have them emerge like mystical figures, and in order to, like Spears said, to be uder the control of the Clan, have them come at the Command/request of the Elders/Tarentae/ect.

Oberst

07-04-2006 14:25:39

I'm not sure they'd take well to being summoned like a lackey. See "In The Shadows" for how Masters Shade and Tel'Ratha were used. They knocked out an Adept and then Zero and Tel'Ratha pinned down a group of Equites. Not exactly an entity that can be commanded to appear. I'd be awfully cross with a Tarentum writer that did that.

There are some things that need resolving in the Clan (Obsidian Blade springs immediately to mind) and I've thought of using them to explain away and tie up those loose ends.

Sephiroth Kali

07-04-2006 15:57:06

Sorry. Where can I see this "in the Shadows"?

Sith Bloodfyre

07-04-2006 16:21:18

I think the intention of the Keepers is being misconstrued here, so I'm going to take a moment and fill you in on my mindset about things, and let you know what was going on around the time of their inception.

I was working as Praetor to the DGM on a project for the Clan and Order Powers project. Tarentum's powers were designated as Necromantics, and where some Clans just figured, "Sweet, new powers," I was thinking other things. "How did we get these powers? What do they entail? Why now? Why these powers?" This was all before the Split, mind you.

After the Split, Oberst returned, and through a tip from Mav, I started working with Oberst on the history of Tarentum, and slowly on the Keepers. My thought on the issue was this. "We must've encountered something, or someone, who has imparted these secrets at this specific time. Perhaps this is more than just 'death magic,' aand something on a larger scope." And out of that came the name "Keepers of the Secrets of Life and Death." Keepers for short. These became the beings who were likened as being the guardians of existence. Some of them lived in, and enhanced death; others dwelled in, and expanded life. Some, like Phalanthus, rule over it all, and exist in-between. This is probably one of the reasons why Phalanthus is "not here." Maybe he's everywhere, and we just don't have the ability to see him yet.

Time went on, and more work was done. Oberst and I worked on the history of these beings. Where they originally came from, we hadn't nailed down, but they had been a civilization, an entire race, even if not an overly large one. They lived in an unknown region of space, the universe itself hiding its "most special" children. It was hypothesized that, if the Keepers were ever fully eradicated, the universe would cease to exist, because the guardians of existence would no longer be there to keep it flowing. The life-stuff would undo itself without the power and guidance of the Keepers.

In modern times, the number of Keepers dwindled. They didn't so much "die" as disappear. They knew their numbers were growing smaller, and this worried them. They made pacts with the founders of Tarentum. The leaders of then House Tarentum vowed that they would create a sanctuary for the Keepers and watch over them as allies and kin, and the Keepers would pass on their knowledge and secrets to the seed of Tarentum at the appointed time. Time passed, plans were made and forgotten, but never truly left behind.

Enter my reign as Consul. Master Zero returned to Tarentum. He knew of the keepers, because he was the first Aedile of House Tarentum, and its second Quaestor. The time had come, and the Keepers were contacted by Zero, and brought to their new sanctuary and stronghold under the seas of Yridia II.They began teaching Master Zero, their first student, and the first in a great span of time to earn the right to be called a Keeper. Zero begins teaching the rest of Tarentum, only to those who have been chosen among the Clan, and who have started to walk the path of the Keepers' power.

Masters Shade and Tel'Ratha are not our pawns, but they are not our masters, either. Not in a certain sense. They are our mentors, and our kin. They do not manipulate us anymore so than dark persons may try to manipulate others naturally. We are their protection, they are our teachers. We live in balance, because we both require each other. We do not beckon them and utilize them as weapons, they do not beckon and utilize us as pawns. So to speak.

There are some of us who respect and revere the Keepers, but not all will feel that way. Some may despise them, others may be wary of them. Master Zero is their chief student, and indeed, now a Keeper himself. Oberst and I (still fictionally) revere them, and would almost demand respect towards the Keepers from the Clan. But you also have to realize, very few in the Clan (fictionally) actually know they exist. Only specific people would fictionally now their names, much less that they dwell around and among us. For the majority of the Clan, they just know that some of the Clan's Elders have an almost morbid fascination with life, death, and everything in-between. They don't realize that it's because those people have begun to walk the path of the Keepers.

It's a lot to take in, and it's a lot to use. And the best way to use something like this is "sparingly." Don't overload people with it, but give them a chance to be involved with it. Very little action from the Clan as a whole would be directly because of, or directly related to the Keepers. They won't be involved with everything, nor should they be. And, as Oberst said, if they were used wrong, that would be a serious irritation. So, however we institute and utilize more of this, it needs to be slowly, and appropriately.

Welshman

07-04-2006 18:22:24

Just to let you all know I'm still reading and interested ;)

I'll admit I'm not very knowledgable about numerology and myths I like the idea of their being the whole 7 tiers of power with the three minor ones. It keeps things simple but also encompasses everything important without delving into more superflous detail and attributes.

The fact that Tarentum are the protectors of all life in the Universe, well what can I say but cool > : D

I was reading abit of a Welsh book the other day and a couple of names you might be able to mangle to look SWish or even combine are Arawn (head of the underworld in our myths as they stand) and Cyhiraeth a banshee type woman God.

Anshar

09-04-2006 13:45:52

Sephiroth: the final copy of "In the Shadows" run-on is pinned on the Clan message board. I started it as a competition back when I was QUA of Gladius. BF, I think, saw a great opportunity and asked that it be opened to the clan.

Yes, Obsidian Blade needs to be finished up. Needs a lot of work, but it ran into trouble so early...

Anyway, dealing with numberso f Keepers and everything, I think we are in agreement that small is good. For one, it saves us the time of developing names and histories. But, I was thinking, what if we left several seats empty, either in expectation that the original occupant would return, or someone would one day rise to fill it.

We could go with 7 known Keepers/associates who sit in the seats. The other 3 (if you're going with 10) or 5 (if 12, as I've heard both numbers proposed), could intentionally be left open. We see it in the legends of King Arthur, where one seat at the round table remained open until the proper person filled it (Galahad, I think, but it has been a long time since I've read it).

Also, speaking of In the Shadows, I skimmed through it and came up with a few things to clarify real quci (or maybe they'll help here ?)
-what's the deal with Dr. Stiener? What is his role? (or are the Mystics and the Asylum a separate entity from this conversation?)
-Master Kumba? The name is mentioned in "In the Shadows"

Oberst

09-04-2006 16:03:20

Dr. Stiener is being kept seperate for now. I've been toying with him a little bit, and with the closing of the Mystics...I'm not sure how to tie the Asylum in.

Kumba is a DP in the EHDB now.

I think I'm going to keep it at 10, even though there are 12 levels of Power in the DB wise...from what I'm basing the definitions of each seat off of...11 would start the chain over at 1. As for the open seats at 3 and 7...those Keepers are still around...somewhere. 8 and 9, I'm open to suggestions for. I do like the idea, though, of those seats remaining open until someone worthy is seated.

Sith Bloodfyre

09-04-2006 17:21:17

Just briefly, Kumba was the last DJP/DP here, but after the crap surrounding the Split, he actually quit both clubs. As far as I know, Kumba hasn't rejoined the EHDB, or here. The reason he may have been mentioned is because he was another person who came up in Tarentum, went onto the Dark Council, and basically achieved the greatest stature most Brotherhood members could ever dream of. I see him as like another legend. Rank-wise, higher than Master Zero, but Zero has been a DJM longer, and would be just as powerful, if not more so. The biggest difference would probably that Master Zero is here, and more people will know of him through interaction. Very little of Tarentum these days would be likely to remember Kumba.

And, as an interesting piece of information, Tarentum has continued to sit with excellence on the Dark Council in the spot that he previously held on the Council. Just an interesting piece of history.

Sephiroth Kali

09-04-2006 21:08:08

How will the future ones to be seated be decided? By the Keepers themselves?

Sith Bloodfyre

09-04-2006 22:31:32

With the exception of Zero, seats 1-7 will always be fictional characters. Zero possesses one of their seats because of his stature as a Clan Founder (he was one of the original, founding members of House Tarentum), and because fictionally, he was their first student, and now rivals the power of Masters Shade and Tel'Ratha. Somewhat. Seats 8-10 would/could potentially be Clan members. As Oberst mention, seat 10 representing the "Kingdom" would be the Consul's seat, since the Consul would represent the entire Clan.

Also, recognize that these "seats" are very, very much fictional. They wouldn't have much to do with the Clan itself. This wouldn't be a title, or include a land grant, or anything. Seats 1-7 would represent the rulers of the Keepers (sort of), with 8-10 being like "advisory/honorary" members of a ruling Council. This doesn't supercede the Clan Summit, or anything along that order. I don't want there to be any misinterpetations about this.

As far as seats 1-7, that will likely be decided by this group. We're working to flesh out the Keepers, and that is part of fleshing them out. We've already laid down some of the ideas, and mentioned which seats would currently be filled. As Oberst mentioned before, he's also looking for the group to help create and flesh out the additional/new Keepers and such.

Adien Falaut

10-04-2006 12:17:32

l'm here still, I admit I'm new on here but let me know where I can help

Sith Bloodfyre

10-04-2006 16:24:52

Just read through everything that's being posted, melkor, and then toss out whatever comments, thoughts, suggestions and otherwise that you may have. Ask questions if you have those, too.

Adien Falaut

12-04-2006 13:48:07

Thank you I've been reading everything and I think it's great I really enjoyed "In the Shadows", and I"ll keep reading along and place input where I can

Rekio Corsair

20-04-2006 13:38:03

I recently spent some time looking over some D&D guides and also took the time to sit down and read over the Clan powers again. I noticed that there were several levels of undead that could be raised. Of particular interest to the discussion on the Keeper's Death Knights were the Euthanatos, which are nigh-unbeatable warriors with powers equal to that of a Dark Jedi Equite. Since a Dark Jedi Elder could defeat a Euthanatos, I would assume that Death Knights would have to be more powerful- perhaps being themselves the equals of undead Dark Jedi Elders. This ability to raise Death Knight would of course be a power limited to Keepers and the Knight Captain of the Death Knights.

On the subject of the Knight Captain, I'm still under the impression (see my comments before) that he would be a pseudo-Keeper in terms of powers if not a Keeper himself. I was thinking of something along the lines of a Blackguard from D&D, but that could also be a possible template for the Death Knights.

As a side note, I noticed that the Clan Powers are mostly written in reference to what a Keeper can do. I don't know if Oberst and Bloodfyre did that intentionally, but it could use a better introduction in regards to the relation of the Clan's powers to the Keepers and in general the document seems to need some revision.

Sith Bloodfyre

20-04-2006 14:36:11

1) I don't see Death Knights as "being who are raised." I see them a lot like "beings who are cursed." In my perception, they'd be undead souls who are not allowed to die. They'd be dark, angry, vengeful beings bound to the Keepers through their power and ties to life and death. Stuff like that. Death Knights wouldn't necessarily be Keepers, but they are exceptionally powerful beings who would probably be on par with the Keepers in Force ability. The one difference? Keepers have the ability (somehow) to bend these creatures to their will. It would take great effort and willpower to maintain control over a Death Knight. Let up even a bit, and a Death Knight would destroy a person who dared assume control over them. They are the embodiment of death and destruction, but what's worse, they know nothing but pain, fear, and utter hatred of everything that's living. We can die, they can't, and they hate us for that. And so on, and so forth. Again, just my thoughts on them.

2) Yes, Clan powers are written in reference to the Keepers. The Clan powers and Keepers were sort of created side-by-side. The reason why the powers reference the Keepers is because, in the end, those studying the powers are potential Keepers. Master Zero is a prime example. Master Zero is written as their first student, who is now a Keeper himself, on par with Masters Shade and Tel'Ratha. Eventually, every member of the Clan has the potential to be recognized as an actual Keeper. Up until that point, they are recognized by what path they follow; some are recognized as Watchers (like me), others are recognized as Death Dealers (like Oberst).

Sephiroth Kali

20-04-2006 19:57:25

This reminds me of the Death Knights of Draginlance. Lord Soth and his army of undead warriors.

Sith Bloodfyre

20-04-2006 21:05:59

That's why it reminds me of that. I used to read Dragonlance, and I always liked Lord Soth.

Oberst

20-04-2006 21:29:48

I actually got the idea from Dragonlance. I've been going through a bunch of artwork trying to pick up something that would give me that dark, sinister despair theme that I'm looking for. I saw this picture and I thought, "That's what I want guarding the sanctum of the Keepers!"



And definately, a Death Knight (or whatever we end up calling it) would be too powerful for us to "raise." I don't want to see people "summoning" vampires and liches. We aren't that powerful. I consider those things outside our field of summoning, maybe a Master could bend them to their will, but definately not summon them outright.

Sith Bloodfyre

21-04-2006 00:06:29

That's only half the picture. I should look for the whole thing. It's an impressive piece. If I remember right, it's supposed to depict Lord Soth and his skeletal warriors charging towards Palanthus during the Legends Trilogy. Which, if I may say, was their best trilogy. I always thought Raistlin was badass. Maybe he could be the basis for another Keeper.



I also found another picture that brings another idea to mind.



Lord Soth was ported over to the Ravenloft world from Dragonlance. I never did pay much attention to Ravenloft, so I don't know all of the details. But I was thinking, what if this Death Knight captain isn't even from "this universe," and is bound to service to the Keepers until they can "send him home"? Of course, no one but Phalanthus would likely have the power to do that, so this Death Knight would effectively be stuck here until Phalanthus' return, but as long as Shade and Tel'Ratha appeared to be "working on it," he'd be honor-bound to serve them.

And so on, and so forth.

Oberst

21-04-2006 03:39:32

I'm wary of the alternative dimension arc. I don't want to go there just because we already have magic rings. Alternative dimensions just makes it tempting for people to attempt to summon a dragon or something. Sure, they'll fail, but I'd rather the energy not be expended in that direction in the first place.

I do like the idea of the Krynn Death Knights, though, how they were all spawned by being oath breakers. Maybe twist that, and they swore to protect the Keepers for eternity? They swore the oath, the Keepers bound them to it, and here they are. They died, but they kept on existing.

Welshman

21-04-2006 04:45:31

Abit like the ghosts in Return of the King.

Rekio Corsair

21-04-2006 11:04:37

I think what I said was somewhat of miscommunication. I didn't mean, in any way, that any regular Necromancer would be able to raise, summon, or other wise commander such a powerful being as Death Knights. Instead, as powerful as the Death Knights would be, it would take Phalanthus if not multiple other Keepers to create them (by whatever means) and bring them under their command. This would be entirely beyond the ability of anyone else. But that was just one possible idea.

I have agree that multidimensional really isn't the way to go with things. We're already mixing two genres together, but we have to recognize when it stops being Star Wars and starts being fantasy with Jedi. Not saying that we're taking it to that extreme, but if we put the idea out there someone else will and there is no reason to invite in any more exaggerated nonsense than there already is in the DB.

Though what Bloodfyre suggested reminds me of something from the World of Warcraft Lore. Long story short, Ner'zhul was an orc warlock that made a Blood Pact with a demon named Kil'jaeden and later betrayed him. Ner'zhul met back up with them later and in vengeance, Kil'jaeden tore his part apart piece by piece while keeping his spirit intact. Ner'zhul pleaded for his spirit to be released so he could be granted death, but Kil'jaeden pointed that the Blood Pact was still binding. Ner'zhul was then transformed into the Lich King and spread death and terror across Azeroth.

I had considered that Death Knights were Clan members that had made some form of pact or pledge that swore them to the service of the Keepers until released. But I also thought that this might be construed as desecrating the soul or whatever of clansmen after death; whereas I thought the Keepers and we as a Clan would have a lot more respect for live after death and all that. Then again, if eternal servitude was done willingly, then it wouldn't really be like that. As an alternative to that, I came up with the idea that Death Knights might be fallen enemies that were powerful enough to earn a use in the eyes of the Keepers and were therefore bound to their eternal service. I donít know; itís whatever direction you decide on. I'm just rambling.

Sith Bloodfyre

21-04-2006 11:25:17

The idea that the Death Knight and his men were oathbreakers is a good one; I wouldn't say they were Clansmen, but perhaps they were another "family" or some such that had sworn to protect them. At one point, they would have failed in their oath, and been bound to death for it. We can figure out exactly how they broke their oath, but I do like that idea. And, they can be old as [Expletive Deleted F-word]. If they're wearing armor and carrying swords and such, this could date back to long before the lightsaber and such, when the Jedi were just a fledgling order. They could be well over 10-15,000 years old, or more.

Sephiroth Kali

21-04-2006 15:09:34

Definatly. And yes, Raistlin is a badass.

Adien Falaut

23-04-2006 08:49:56

that is cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sephiroth Kali

27-09-2006 12:38:47

I don't know if anyone still reads this, but One possibility is that the Knights are the Souls of actual Sith who served the original Sith Lords and pleged alligence for life and death.

Adien Falaut

29-09-2006 11:24:54

I'm still here...