New Clan Poll

Several times in the past I have floated the idea of switching Taldryan over to the full MO system, and I think its time to take a harder look at this situation. Currently we have Ektrosis which only takes Krath members, and Dinaari, which takes Sith and Obelisk. This system worked alright when the number of new Krath members was roughly equal to the number of new Sith and Obelisk. However with the release of more Obelisk-orientated games, and EPIII which has people crazy about being a 'Sith', we are starting to notice a large inequity of incoming members (basically Ektrosis has gotten 1 new member to Dinaari's last 20).

What is happening is Ektrosis is falling behind because it doesn't have nearly the amount of new blood that Dinaari does. Also by barring anyone but Krath members from Ektrosis and saying its a house for "writring", we deny some people the opportunity to be in Ektrosis if they wish to be another order.

If we switched to the MO system, both houses would have Krath, Sith, and Obelisk members. That way if you're in Ektrosis but you've always wanted to be an Obelisk...well you can stay in the House you want and change your order.

So I've opened this poll to see what everyone thinks of this idea. So vote on the poll and then add any comments/questions you have to this thread....or do it the other way around, either way.


Shadow EDIT: Read the comments and opinions before voting. It may change your view on the subject.

My opinion...Ekky should stay Krath...trying to think of valid reasons atm, but all I'm getting is gut instinct. I dunno, it just seems like the whole purpose of Ekky would be lost otherwise....sure, back when it was an Independent House it was MO, but...it just seems wrong...

Then again personally I don't really get the idea behind MO houses anyway....almost seems to defeat the whole purpose of the original Clanning....maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy

Will have a think and see if I can work out the reasons behind the instinct

To be honest, I don't have a problem with being MO but then I wonder why you'd need two separate Houses at all.

I guess the only thing that'd bother me would be Ektrosis losing its distinct identity, which I believe needs to be revived instead of buried. I'm not worried so much about the history being lost, mainly because it won't be, but alot of the tradition has already been lost and there needs to be some type of attempt to rebuild it. It's something unique that the house had/has and members like to be a part of something unique. I'm not really sure changing to MO would affect this, but it is something to think about.

This is very much like the debate that Kir and I had to go through when Archanis was closed. We realized that closing the house would mean a loss of it's unique history and all the wonderful things that it had done (ie. winning the Sith War with 6 people in the house...no, I'm not gonna shup up about that, I'd damn proud of it ), but there just weren't enough people in the house for it to keep running on its own.

In the end we all agreed that it was in the best intrest of the house, and the clan, to close Archanis and move it's members to Dinaari, which would become a multi-order house for Obbies and Sith. However, we also agreed that if the numbers warrented it then one day Archanis could be reopened.

I think the same principle could apply here: Ekky, as a krath only house, isn't getting the new members that Dinaari is. Ekky has 8 people under DJK while Dinaari has 18; Dinaari also is a few members short of twice the size of Ekky. I think that, with the information that I have, it seems best for everyone involved to make Ekky a multi-order house. Not only will it increase the number of people in Ekky but it will also make it easier for Dinaari's summit by not dumping 90% of the new members on them. Also, there's nothing that says that Ekky can't go back to being a krath-only house in the future if circumstances dictate.

Hmm, other than the fact that things will be working just fine the way they are and so there'll be no need to change....

I dunno, the idea of being people other than Krathy in Ektrosis just doesn't seem right. Ektrosis has never been a particularly big house to my memory, but it's never needed to be...ok, we're getting less Krath recruits than the Sith or Obbies atm, but give it a month or two for the Star Wars mania in the real world to die down a bit and I'd bet that'd go back to normal....

Will post more of the thinking behind the feelings as I figure it out!

Not even Obelisk are getting a lot of recruits these days. Everyone and their mom is joining as Sith just because it's in the movies. Ektrosis is currently full of oldy members that have returned over the year, and don't usually last for long periods of time (no offense guys)

To really improve the House we need to go Multi-Order. There has been 3 new Krath Apprentices in a 2 month time. The only other Clan with an Krath-only House is CSP and I personally don't want to be like them

Plus, as far as I can tell, when Rebirth does get released in August everything will be MO. Hell, most of the day-to-day active people in Ektrosis just MP. Since each Order can now write and MP this won't really change Ekky in any way. It will just add to your membership and should improve the overall activity of the Clan.

In my opinion making Ekky multi-order would simply be following a trend and not staying with the times in an effective manner. Once EPIII has been out of theaters for a few months the Sith will die down as well as the games being released the Obbys will as well. Yes there are so many new members in Dinaari that is for sure. Yet tell me, for every three new ones perhaps only 1 will make it past the first few months without going inactive. Making Ekky MO would help Dinaari's crowded status and give Ekky more men, but in the long run would create more problems. It is simply harder to run a MO house than a single order house in some ways. For the time being it is still too early to tell what needs to be done. Give it a few more months and if Ekky is 'dying off' then we can fix the problem, which i dont believe there is.

KP Octa

Since you've been gone, Octa, we've re-established what Orders are and what they define. There are no longer Order-based restrictions on what a person can or can't do in the club. As an Obelisk I can participate in fiction competitions, I can play an FPS game, or I can play a flight sim game.

Orders now determine the mindset of your DB character. For instance: Shadow prefers one on one combat with either guns, lightsabers or fists. Obelisk fits that description perfectly as they are the warriors of the DB. Sith are more based in the movies. They want to attain power. Not so much in combat/force, but domination. Ruling a planet, ruling the galaxy, sending the troops out to fight. That's what a Sith takes pleasure in. They plot and bide their time. The Krath Order studies the intricacys of the Force and the ancient texts and powers. They research so that their knowledge and wisdom grow - giving them a stronger connection to the Force.

That's how Orders are now done. That's why the DB has changed to the Multi-Order system. The QUA/AED of any House now has to run competitions for MP and fiction. Why? Because some Krath characters won't like writing, they will prefer MP.

This is the problem most older members will have. The system is different now, things have changed. The next Krath you get might not like writing, they may prefer MP. So is DS supposed to just ignore this active member because they don't write? That's ridiculous. You have to take care of all members. Changing to Multi-Order will just make sure you get some new people to hold competitions for. There is nothing worse then creating and running a competition that only 3-4 people participate in. Just feels like a big waste of time.

You make a good point. Yet i feel a large number of these new applicants will largly be gone within a few months, after every new SW movie vast influx of people arrive and then within a season they are gone. So from that aspect size should not matter. In terms of the new mindset of the DB towards clans, it sounds good i suppose. Although if some Krath are not active often giving them Obby games or Sith games may fix it, or it may not. Personally I doubt it. For there are open nights and the likes for Krathies to play in. Although I agree it helps in terms of competitions.....kinda. Can Krath now enter Sith events? Or are events now open to all orders just with different perameters? If so that makes sense yet this kinda makes the orders irrelevant and only useful as a title and a category to group people in. Personally whatever helps activity and productivity i am all for, but I feel Ektrosis has a long Krath tradition that should be weighed highly before any decision is made. Although now I am somewhat open to the idea friend.

KP Octa

Yes, events are open to any order. For instance, the last Krath Rite of Supremacy and Sith War - we did as well as we did because of the entire Clan. I'm not putting Ektrosis down, but it doesn't have enough members to support those kind of competitions anymore. 50% of our points were from participation alone. And many Dinaari people placed in those events as well.

As for all the new people joining not being active in the long run - that is how it's always been in the DB. You're lucky to get 1 active person out of 20 new Apprentices. But. If Ektrosis is limited to only getting 1 member every two months it would take what? 40 monthes before you net another active member? The higher number of joins we get the higher the chances we net more active people.

Tradition can only be weighed so much once it starts interfering with the growth of the Clan. Traditionally, there were only 2 Orders. Traditionally there were just Independant Houses. Traditionally There was 3 houses per Clan of each Order. Traditionally the Sith flew, the Obelisk battled and the Krath wrote.

Traditionally we were part of the EH

Since we left the EH things have been evolving in the DB. The times have changed to reflect such things. If we had kept the Sith Order to just playing XWA and XvT it would be utterly dead as only a handful of people play those regularly. Dinaari also had a proud and long history as the #1 Obelisk House. When the Sith were dying down because of lack of new games we had to shut Archanis down (which also had a great history) and merge the members with Dinaari for a Sith/Obelisk House. Things constantly change to create an enjoyable environment for the current members.

If nothing else, we will just give the MO thing a try. If it works horribly we can change back. But either way everyone has to accept that being a Krath House no longer limits you as fiction writers and RPers. Hell, DS and Chaos are both big gamers and very talented at it. I doubt Dinaari would reject their help in the next Obelisk Rite of Supremacy.

Anyways... I know it's hard to give up something you've known for so long, but don't think of it as giving anything up. If anything you're going back to House Ektrosis' roots. Before Taldryan was formed Ektrosis held all three orders. Think of it as returning to the rightful path

Alright now that there have been some comments let me go back and respond.


I don't have a problem with being MO but then I wonder why you'd need two separate Houses at all.
This is a valid point, because once both houses accept all 3 orders, you could basically just have the Clan summit run everything, since the seperate units are identical in makeup....but that wouldn't work. There are several reasons we'd want several houses. The first reason is for member attention; if there were only 1 house with 2 leaders for all 50 members...attention to individual needs and personality gets lost in the shuffle. By having two houses each with 25 members, it is much more personal. The second is for competition purposes...having the two houses pitted against each other makes for a good time. The third is leadership positions; if we only had 1 house (or just the clan) there would only be 2 or 3 leadership positions total...which would be a waste of the natural talent we have in this clan. By having 2 houses we require at least 6 leaders, which allows us to develop our talented members.


the only thing that'd bother me would be Ektrosis losing its distinct identity
Ektrosis' identity is not bound to that of the Krath order. It began as an Independent house, which was made up of members from all (well at that time, I think there were only 2) orders. Eventually things were restructured so each house had only 1 order, and most people in the DB now only remember that system. But order is not what makes up a House's identity...that is by its history and its members. Taldryan does a good job of remembering and honoring House histories, and allowing Sith and Obelisk in wouldn't ruin that in any way. Another point that Shadow has made is that while some people want Ekky to remain the "writing" house...the most active Ektrosis members game more than they write! So instead of forcing them to remain Krath because they are loyal to Ektrosis, why not allow them to choose whichever order they'd like?


Hmm, other than the fact that things will be working just fine the way they are and so there'll be no need to change...
I'm sorry to say that things are not working out just fine currently. While Ektrosis' roster may show a respectable 19 members...in reality there are only 5 fully active members, with possibly 3-4 semiactives, for a total of 9 max. Add into that the fact that Ektrosis is severely limited in the amount of new recruits that it receives and you have a receipe for disaster. So while Ektrosis may not be in a crisis situation right now, I'd rather prevent us from ever reaching that point.


Plus, as far as I can tell, when Rebirth does get released in August everything will be MO.
This is true, when Rebirth is put into effect all houses in all clans will be multiorder.


It is simply harder to run a MO house than a single order house
This is also true, but let's examine why. It is harder to run an MO house because the leaders have to be proficiant in all areas (basically gaming and fiction) that members participate in. In the past there were members that were incredible gaming leaders...but couldn't write a complete sentence. If you are going to lead an MO house you have to be more well rounded. But now...why is that a problem? We don't want our leaders to concentrate so much in one area that they ignore the others. Especially since there are no longer order restrictions, we want everyone to diversify their abilities to help the Clan in all areas possible. And currently Ekky is led by DS and Chaorain, both of whom are just as proficient at fiction as they are at gaming, so it looks like we're in a good place to start with.


I have been subtlely pushing the MO idea in Taldryan for the past two years, but I've always met with resistance. I put a question in my Taldyran Survey awhile back and got a very negative response. I was always satisified with letting the members decide because the Clan was doing really well. However now I see a problem that is becoming more bothersome, and has the potential to perminantly ruin Ektrosis if nothing is done, so I am pushing much harder this time. I think often people are against MO because they don't fully understand the overall situation, so I hope some of my responses here helped. If you have any other comments or questions, keep posting!

I'm sorry to say that things are not working out just fine currently. 




Sorry Kir - I meant that if we change to MO, then even if we get more Krath there'll likely be resistance to Ekky ever going back to Krath (yeah, and esp when Rebirth hits...), guess I didn't make that clear (and probably still haven't...).


I think part of what I'm worried about is that if Ekky goes MO, there will be a large number of people joining who are there pretty much just for the gaming. Yes, there are people in Ekky now who game lots, but they recognise that Ekky is a Krath house and that they will be expected to do the Krathie things as well. I can see in the future, without Krathie QUAs/AEDs, that a lot of the focus in the house will be on gaming, and the fiction will be more of a sideline...fine for people who want it that way, but there are still Krathies out there who don't have any of the games, and I guess I can just see a time when there will be less Krathy comps, etc with everything going MO.

Maybe it's just me being paranoid. And yes, you're right, way back when Ekky was MO. She was also Independent. So if we're talking about going back to roots, then along with going MO she should become an Independent Clan when Rebirth hits...right?

I may be one of the few members of the clan who was actually in Ekky when it was an Indie house. (I took over as QUA of Ekky when we clanned and Jarla moved to CON).

I am, and always have been, opposed to MO. I thought that Taldryan had largely escaped the MO wave that has swept through the other clans, and I hope that we still might.

1. This increase in Dinaari numbers is a good thing, but unfortunately its also probably a temporary thing.

Dinaari is getting twice as many members because it's getting the Sith+Obbies, whereas Ekky is just getting Krath. Of course they'll have more newbies atm because the films will bring in more gamers than writers. But inbetween films, the majority of recruits are always Krath. So you could see this period as re-dressing the balance. We desperately needed more Sith, whereas the Krath order is doing just fine. This increase in Dinaari numbers is a good thing, but unfortunately its also probably a temporary thing.

2. Indie Ekky/Tally has always had a Krath slant.

For those who don't know, Phoenix phyle in Indie Ekky was the Krath phyle (yes, even Indie Ekky kept the orders seperate), and they got more points in a GJW than each other Krath house. When we clanned, all that happened was that the other orders came out from the shadow of the Krath and got a chance to shine. If we go MO now, I would say that there's a fair chance the Krath might again start to suffocate Dinaari... or they might not. But that's something we would only know when it's too late.

3. Ekky members are active.

I don't know how you can say that Ekky is in trouble. You just won the KRoS for goodness sake. Yes, Dinaari played a good part, but that's because they have some of the keen writers now. The Krath in this clan are just as strong as they always were. Plus, month after month there have been Ekky-ites winning MTs. And you have the ex-KHP and the ex-CM who've rejoined you.

4. Ekky has often gone through periods with low member intakes.

We had this back when I was QUA, both times. It's always been a worry and probably always will, but please do bear in mind that the extreme situation we're in at the moment is very unusual. We normally have a krath-heavy intake. This current situation influx of Sith is likely to die down. I don't see how the situation will be improved by splitting up and diluting the active Krath that we do have.


So, to finish... I remember when Howie switched us from MO to SO. There were reasons he did this, and they remain as valid today as they were then. I feel that Ekky really came into its own as a SO house and I think it would lose part of what makes it the first house of the Krath were it to go MO. I just can't see why we would risk losing something for no real gain.

(Oh yeah, and I don't know why you're worried about gaming Krath not wanting to stay in Ekky when DS etc are avid gamers...)

Not a fan of the MO thing here either - been in two Clans that the Krath went MO and it sucked. I was really under the impression that Taldryan (as a whole) didn't care what the 'numbers' or the 'roster' looked like, only what was coming out as far as activity is concerned. The idea that activity will increase is misleading to everyone who has the idea that going MO will change that, at the root. Yes, you may see more activity, but it will be because the activity that was coming out of one House is now coming out of another - it just got moved. If the members of Ektrosis aren't gaming now, throwing other Orders in there isn't going to change that. Of course, I am of the mind that if it was going to be done, there shouldn't be a discussion - just do it. However, since you asked, it would be wise to allow only the members of the House the right to decide as they are the ones who will have to open their doors to the new ways of doing stuff.

On the other hand, the grand scheme of the idea is honorable - attempting to erase the lines of Order - but that should be the reason; not numbers or activity - but unity.

I'm voting 'no' and tossing out the idea of leaving it alone until it has to be done with the re-organization that will come from rebirth.

A few more comments from me...

Alanna mentioned that Ekky just won a KRoS, which is true, but lets look at the numbers.

Number of seals earned by Ektrosis members = 63
Number of seals from rest of Clan = 35

Also you'll note the number of people who participated from Ekky is roughly equal to the number from the rest of the Clan. What does that mean? It means that without the Clan working together, we wouldn't have won the KRoS. Thats not just for Krath competitions either, if we hadn't had Dark Sabre, Nexusmage, and Chaorain playing MP during the GJW we probably would have lost to Tarentum, so it works both ways - this Clan functions as a whole.

Now what is the real problem with opening each clan up to every activity? I honestly only see benefits...members get more experience with different types of competitions, leaders learn to diversify their efforts, the Clan improves as a whole. The most common complaint I see on this thread basically boils down to "we don't like change". I can promise you that if we swtich to MO there will still be competitions for gamers and non-gamers, we aren't going to ignore either group (especially since many of us enjoy both activities).

You also all realize that it wouldn't just be Ektrosis that is going MO, it would be the entire Clan. Dinaari would accept members from all three orders as well as Ekky. This would eliminate the number differences, and even up the amount of new recruits each house gets, and basically doubling Taldryan's chances of getting quality new members of all orders.

As for Taldryan having a Krath tilt...I'm not sure thats been entirely true for the past 3 years. Gaming has been a HUGE part of Taldryan, especially when Archanis and Dinaari were both rocking. So I'm not sure that Taldryan as a whole has always had a Krath "slant".

And finally about Ektrosis being active...of the Ekky members that have posted on this thread so far, only two are "active", with 3 more in the "active if there's a big comp" area. So I'm not entirely sure that statement can be backed up.

This is a very interesting discussion, and I don't believe the questions we raise here have been answered even by those clans which have already gone multi-order. In fact, I'm not sure there are even solid answers today about whether it is 100% advantageous to be either way. Which do I prescribe? I really don't know, though I am starting to lean toward multi-order after being in Tarentum for a while.

Let me make some generalizations from my experience...

GOOD STUFF ABOUT MO
1) Multi-Order allows for an equal distribution of new recruits via Dark Fury. This ensures that another "let's close Archanis" sentiment doesn't recur unless recruit influx drops so low that the entire clan is at risk of closing.
2) Persuant to #1, multi-order ensures that the living historical legacy of surviving houses is not lost to an old book that no one reads anymore. i.e., in today's case, Ekky won't get closed in 2 months because only the QUA and AED are active (erroneous but instructive comparison)
3) Multi-Order allows "circles" or "battleteams" of multiple disciplines (i.e. gaming, writing, plumbing, etc) to be established within a single house. These are ephermeral units which can be created or destroyed with the changing character and interests of the house. Ektrosis could still have a writer's-only group, for example.
4) Holy moly - can you do house -vs- house competitions, or what? Now that you have two houses with a rough distribution of the same skill sets, the kinds of house competitions that you thought impossible under the single order housing are now possible. Traditional Sith House -vs- Traditional Krath House? Yeah right. MO makes things easier.
5) What if a Sith or Obelisk could more effectively help lead Ektrosis to future victory? Currently, they're stuck in Dinaari. What glorious days do we pass up because of order restrictions?

BAD STUFF ABOUT MO
1) Leaders are often not skilled or interested in every single discipline that their house contains. In this case, which I believe to be pretty common, the QUA or AED will focus solely on gaming -OR- writing. This defeats the whole concept of a multi-order house. If the leadership is only interested in gaming with JO, for example, all of the other interests within the house will be ignored and those will slowly whither away. In the end, you have an Obelisk house in everything but name. "MO" is just a facade in this case.
2) The exact legacy of Ektrosis will die, yes. Ektrosis, as Alanna and others pointed out, is known for being Krath today and is one of the few remaining, purely Krath houses. If you go MO, you will destroy this identity. However, let's face it. Archanis was destroyed too. MO has a tendency of homogenizing things. Don't despair too much, though - the people who made the history are still immortalized. When we talk about the history of this clan, we think Jarla, Ehart, Mav, or Alanna. We probably don't immediately think of Shadowmorph Squadron, when Archanis or Dinaari were created, some old motto/nickname, or other material item.

OTHER COMMENTS - Why have more than one house?
It is important to keep multiple houses even if they will have relatively similar skill sets. Why?

1) Well, as has already been said, you can better breed MORE leaders if there are more leadership positions to fill. (If you aren't trying to fill these positions and train leaders, you need to start). This is probably the biggest reason to keep more than one house.

2) Leaders need to be in constant contact with house members. If you have one house, you're asking 2 people to communicate with roughly 50+ people. this is overwhelming and would require additional staff - so why not just keep multiple houses? (i think someone said this too)

3) One house? That means you just destroyed the legacy of all the other houses you are closing. 'Nuff said.

SUMMARY - OPERATIVE REASONS TO GO MO
1) Multi-order ensure a healthy active population in both houses
2) MO ensures that your house isn't getting shut down because there are only 5 active people who write.
3) MO forces you to train your house summits to provide for a wider range of skill sets. This gives people a wider range of experience which means when they go on to bigger and better things, they might just do a better job than if they were pilots only.
4) More house-vs-house competitions within the same clan.

I think I've convinced myself to vote yes...

Well a lot of good points have been brought up here. But as the current QUA of Ektrosis I guess I should lend you all my two cents.

I've never been a huge fan of multi-order, and I'm perfectly fine with admitting that. But I'd like to weigh some pros and cons from my point of view.

Ektrosis is not in trouble. Let's get that straight. Yes, we count on Dinaari to help us pull through a lot of the major competitions but it goes both ways as was said.

Second, we don't have very many members. I don't think this should be that much of an issue. I could probably handle more and I'm sure Benevolent would love to have some taken off of his hands.


I have two proposals instead of going fully multi-order.

The first one is probably not as good but I think it should be an idea that is thrown out there. If the influx of Sith members is really an issue, we could re-open Archanis and put someone in charge of that House. Not only would it provide an oppurtunity for some training but it would get rid of some of the Sith. Dinaari would still remain Sith/Obelisk but its size would be reduced.

This other proposal, also designed to take the load of the Dinaari summit and deal with the new Sith, is to make Ektrosis a Krath/Sith house and leave Dinaari as Obelisk/Sith. This would make it more evenly distributed and would serve as a compromise.


Just a couple of ideas.

I'm not going to sway anyone's decision since I'm not in the clan...just throwing out an option.

Well, since platform no longer equals order, everyone normally has #1. THeir order and #2. What they like to "play" primarily.

So, you can always split the houses by platforms instead, and as you move along, they probably will become MO just because people will choose their order regardless of platform

Just a thought to throw at you guys. Nice discussion btw.

What you guys are missing is the fact that joining the Krath Order and the Krath House no longer makes you a writer. Yes, you think that way because that's what you're used to. A lot of the new people in Dinaari don't MP at all they just write yet they aren't Krath. That's because we removed the order-restrictions so everyone could do anything they want.

I had several paragraphs written after this but I've decided that will be my last point. In the last year or two everything has been changing. Orders have changed, Clans have changed the Houses are next on the list.

Too right Shadow, everyone can do everything. The Krath can MP, the Sith and Obbies can write. So Ekky staying SO does not stop anyone doing what they want to do. With everything being homogenised, if they want to join Ekky they just pick Krath...it's not like it makes a difference to what they'll be doing, and I think most people are agreed that in a month or two the abnormaly large Sithy intake will die back down...

Plus you've got the fact that with Ekky being one of the only Krath only houses left, those people joining the DB as 'traditional' Krath are more likely to pick Ekky....I know if I was joining I'd rather be in a house that has more support and activity for Krathies, without all the MP stuff that goes straight over my head getting in the way.

Kir, Ektrosis to my memory has always been active in the same way it is now. People bubbling along until the big comps come, then pulling out all the stops. For at least a big chunk of us, the main reason we're here is to write fiction. And while you can sit and game for hours each night, racking up medals and what-not, fiction just doesn't work the same. I would guess that the few people that you would class as active are the few that MP, and it's that side of things they're active in the majority of the time. Those who are 'inactive until a big comp' are those of us who game very little or not at all (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here).

Being a 'traditional' Krath does work very different to a Sith or Obbie, yes, we have ACC Live! now which evens things up a little, but you're never going to get Krathies churning out fiction at the same rate as gamers can play.

I think that's the main problem with going MO, Sith and Obelisk fit quite well in a house together - yes, they use different platforms, but as far as I'm aware (and I've never played the games so I could be way off track), when you get to basics they all work in pretty much the same way? Fiction's different.

On a slightly different note, Ektrosis was the last Independent House. Let her be the last SO House too....it only seems fitting...

I want to praise Bubbs for that very wise commentary. Id like to suggest that as this vote directly effects Ektrosis, should the voting be limited to Ektrosis? Self Determination anyone? Of course the Clan Summit would have the final say of course.

KP Octa

I want to praise Bubbs for that very wise commentary. Id like to suggest that as this vote directly effects Ektrosis, should the voting be limited to Ektrosis? Self Determination anyone? Of course the Clan Summit would have the final say of course.

KP Octa



The only problem is that this effects the entire clan. Ekky is effected the most, I won't dispute that, but the entire clan will feel effects from a switch (or not switching) to MO. Besides, just because this poll has been posted it doesn't mean that Kir is going to go with the final outcome. This could be just to measure the clan's opinion of switching Ekky to multi order.

If you're worried about other people choosing Ekky's fate then you should get every single member of Ekky to vote.

As Crix said, this does effect the entire Clan. Dinaari will also be going fully MO.

I just feel it would make having more than one house pointless, basically they are just used to divide the men to be more easily run and all not having anything to do with orders. In this MO idea orders are useless, or is that what you have been trying to say has changed, that they are useless? Cause it seems that they will be with this change. Not that thats a bad thing neccessarily just I feel terribly confused on how to stand on this. Change is scary my friends, whether good or bad.

KP Octa

Some people believe Orders are completely useless, and that is true to some extent. Basically the boundaries the different Orders represented are gone.

But, instead of just scrapping Orders altogether, the DC opted to use Orders to define peoples characters. For instance, as an Obelisk my character prefers physical combat. The Squad Leader and footsoldiers of the DB would be the Obelisk. You would join the Obelisk if you wanted your character to excel at hand-to-hand and lightsaber combat.

A Krath would then join because they want to excel at the mental aspects of the Dark Side. They study and follow the ways of the Force to achieve true power. In combat they would use their knowledge and wisdom for powerful Force-based attacks.

The Sith are more interested in domination. They would be the military generals, the battleplanners. They work the system through trickery our outright threats to achieve their end goal - to rule the Galaxy.

So it is all a matter of your characters point of view. Even a Krath who solely played JO in the DB, his/her character would still study in the libraries absorbing the knowledge from the great Jedi of the past in order to become stronger in the ways of the Force. All they've done is separated the fictional role from the real role.


EDIT: This is also reflected in Character creation/modifying when Rebirth roles around. Each Order will also have their own specific Order powers. Even though you prefer to write fiction, maybe the Sith will have some cool stuff that you'd rather have and you'd be able to transfer to Sith and still do solely fiction. Again, you'll understand more of this when Rebirth is released.

In the end everything will be MO anyway - so we should get used to the idea, even if we disagree... but why does it have to be rush-rush now? Why can't we wait until it actually has to be done? Just curious.

For the reason you just said? "so we should get used to the idea, even if we disagree..."

Not to mention Ekky is missing out on possible active members while we wait around for the next 3 months. *shrugs*

Alanna mentioned that Ekky just won a KRoS, which is true, but lets look at the numbers. 
Number of seals earned by Ektrosis members = 63
Number of seals from rest of Clan = 35


I'm not sure I follow your point there.... So the KRoS was primarily entered by the house from Tally which has the most writers? .... quelle surprise...

Also you'll note the number of people who participated from Ekky is roughly equal to the number from the rest of the Clan.  What does that mean?  It means that without the Clan working together, we wouldn't have won the KRoS.  Thats not just for Krath competitions either, if we hadn't had Dark Sabre, Nexusmage, and Chaorain playing MP during the GJW we probably would have lost to Tarentum, so it works both ways - this Clan functions as a whole.


Well... yes. And that's how it should be. Again, what's your point?

All activities have now been opened up to all members. Archanis and Dinaari played a big part in the KRoS... as they should. Surely this proves that the clan works well together when it's SO. Why would going MO change this?

I think you're trying to tie a consequence to staying SO that just isn't true.

Now what is the real problem with opening each clan up to every activity?


Err... nothing. Because that's the way it already is.

Kir... are you forgetting that you don't have to be in a Krath house to enter Krath competitions?

The most common complaint I see on this thread basically boils down to "we don't like change".


And how is that different to saying "I want change for change's sake"? I don't see the benefit to going MO, and I remember that a couple of years ago there was a huge drive in the DB to go SO... so I'm worried that a 'grass is greener' mentality is functionning here...

You also all realize that it wouldn't just be Ektrosis that is going MO, it would be the entire Clan.  Dinaari would accept members from all three orders as well as Ekky.  This would eliminate the number differences, and even up the amount of new recruits each house gets, and basically doubling Taldryan's chances of getting quality new members of all orders. 


Err... how so? Wouldn't the number of recruits stay exactly ther same, just be split differently between the two houses? If there's some dodgy maths going on in the background wrt recruit allocation, then we should have a word with the powers that be about it... recruits should be allocated to houses based on clan numbers, not house numbers.

As for Taldryan having a Krath tilt...I'm not sure thats been entirely true for the past 3 years.  Gaming has been a HUGE part of Taldryan, especially when Archanis and Dinaari were both rocking.  So I'm not sure that Taldryan as a whole has always had a Krath "slant".


My point exactly. Indie Ekky had a huge Krath slant. That has changed as Archanis and Dinnari established themselves in their own rights. What I'm saying that we'd need to be careful not to slip backwards.

(Hmm... for some reason, my computer showed Kir's post as the latest one. And now I see that there have been many more. Oh well Sorry!)

Read Bubbles' post if you haven't already. She makes a very important point about the fundamental difference of the Krath.


Btw - even though this poll seems to show support for Tally going MO, has anyone noticed that only two current Ekky members have voted 'yes' on the poll, whereas six have voted 'no'?

15% of the 'yes' votes have come from Ekky.
75% of the 'no' votes have come from Ekky.

Oh yeah, and 75% of Ekky has so far voted 'no'...

Well, my mind won't change - but that won't keep me from not accepting it No biggies - besides, I'm inactive anyway, right?

The numbers and argument I presented about the KRoS were in response to the comment you made that Ekky was doing just fine because it had won the RoS. I was attempting to show that w/o the rest of the Clan, Ekky would NOT have won the RoS, so using that as your example of how well the House is doing is not a really good example.

Also we are not saying we'd like to change for change sake. Many times on this thread Shadow and I have presented things that would improve under MO, and not once have I seen they refuted. That is what I was saying, there are actual reasons we want to switch, while those who don't seem to just be against change.

As for only Ekky members voting, this decision is for the entire Clan because Dinaari will be doing MO as well. Dinaari members seem to be more supportive...and they already accept members from 2 different orders. Perhaps the fact they are eager for this change should mean something?

And as for our recruit numbers, Alanna you personally should know that the Dark Fury system is...a bit dodgy (to say the least). You honestly think that is the correct number of recruits for a House to be getting over that period?

Indie Ekky had a huge Krath slant. That has changed as Archanis and Dinnari established themselves in their own rights. What I'm saying that we'd need to be careful not to slip backwards.

We're not slipping anywhere (unless you count our activity levels at this moment), this is forward progress. The SO system is dead, Ekky is the last house in the DB to use it, and it will be forced into MO when Rebirth goes into effect in August. The only benefit to staying SO is that people don't want to see Ekky change at all...which isn't much of a valid argument. You have to progress with the times and change when it will benefit you, which it surely will in this case.

Two things:

1) In defense of the Summit, though they don't need it, this is going to happen whether anyone wants it to or not - I am of the 'not', but I don't like gravity either - doesn't keep it from being a fact Thinking that Kir has any decision, despite the outcome of this poll, other than 'when' (before 1 August) would be an oversight. So, lets just get a big group hug going and embrace the inevitable

2) Not so much in defense of the summit - we can't refute what doesn't exist, Kir. Yes, you have made a lot of points - but I think you're (or maybe I am) missing 'the' point. It seems (from an outsider's perspective, i.e. I'm 'in' Taldryan - but I'm not a 'part of' Taldryan) that the 'Krath' don't want to be f**ked with. Yes, you are proposing greater activity for the House as a whole, but not the Order it currently supports - proposed activity being one of the staples of the MO cry, those activities are already available - plainly, you are just looking to make the House more active, not the people that currently reside there, so that's what you guys should be saying. You want the House to appear more active, period. Oh, and a place to throw new bodies period, period

The Krath of Ektrosis are proud to be Krath in Ektrosis, reducing that to being a mere member of Ektrosis is actually a big deal to some people. I have never really been in an 'inactive' House, so the activity level is a bummer for me too - but I can feel for my Order.

When I first came to the DB, the orders were really segregated - I have enjoyed the melding thus far, but the sacrifice of Order identity hasn't gone unnoticed. That sacrifice has gone across all three Orders, so I'm not just crying for the Krath, but what would be the harm (since MO is inevitable) in letting the Krath in Ektrosis have their last days? Hell, you could make an epic Clan fiction about it

And yea, I am rambling and repeating myself...

Heh, I just typed in a long reply to Kir's post and then realised it can be summed up as saying "I didn't say that. I didn't say that either. No, that's not what I meant." I really can't be bothered with that sort of argument, so I just deleted it... especially since it now appears that it doesn't matter what we think about all this since we're going MO anyway.

...and since we're going MO anyway, I don't really see much point in this poll or discussion anymore. You say you want MO. I say I don't. You say we're all going MO anyway, so we just have to accept it. Ok, I can do that... but why ask for our comments and opinions if the outcome has already been decided? If it's just a question of timing, it probably would make more sense to get the change over with. Although it would also be nice to stay SO for a few months longer.

Oh, and if you haven't heard any good arguments refuting MO, go read Bubbles' post.

...and I agree with Dal's last post too Just sayin'

Decision made:

Taldryan will stay in its current state (Dinaari = Sith and Obelisk, Ektrosis = Krath), until change is forced by Rebirth.

I opened this poll because I wanted to see everyones reaction. I know this is a sensitive subject with many people so it wasn't a decision I wanted to make unilaterally. So thank you everyone for your input.

I realize this is rather a mute point now but i have to switch camps here....

I was 100% adamant about Ekky remaining for the Krath but now that i owe JO and actually played in the last few nights of competitions I must say im now 100% behind MO. It makes for many challenges and difficulties yes, but it greatly increases fun and productivity. Its one thing to write a story about a battle and then entirely another to actually fight it. Now that I can do both im the better for it. Hell i even got 5 clusters of fire even though i barely know how to play.

KP Octa

But see Oct, you can do that even without Ekky going MO

But as you said, this is a mute point now, so I'll just punish your switching sides by cutting your ice-cream ration

But see Oct, you can do that even without Ekky going MO

But as you said, this is a mute point now, so I'll just punish your switching sides by cutting your ice-cream ration



Considering it has to happen anyways soon Im not gonna say that I abandoned all my faith in all krath house, im simply saying i can see good in going MO but yet ekky would still be good without it. I know my limits and one of them is not being able to make a decision like this easily. I would have to do a lot of research into the matter before making a final stance on it. I just now see the light from both ends, no one is wrong in this debate really.

KP Octa

What's that? Sure... I'll gladly take Oct's ice-cream rations... thanks for asking

*glares at Dal* You'll have to fight me for it >:)

/me nicks the ice-cream ration while Dal and Bubbles are busy arguing over it >:)

* Bubbs sends Bumblebear after Lannie with his blaster*

Ha! But Bumblebear is Lannie's friend, and is easily bribed with cookies

*Bubbs promises Bumblebear an even shinier blaster and a cookie the size of his...umm....belly...if he retrieves the ice-cream*

i dont really care about all these other Oppinions.
Im opposed to MO even though im one of those few recruits

(now acolyte)

Well i would like to see them as just krath but i don't mind coz in the end a mix works better than just one order so i change my mind i think all of them.