[COMPETITION][FAMOUS PEOPLE] - Xen'Mordin vs Lucyeth


11-04-2014 12:14:00

The rules are as follows:
  1. Each participant has to make three posts.
    Each post has to count at least 250 words and the maximum of 2500 words.
    Not meeting the minimum word count discounts a post.
    Not posting three posts makes a participant lose the debate.
    The participant, who is assigned to start a debate, chooses the first option.
    The second round lasts till the 20th of April.[/list:u]

    Topic of the debate: Admiral Thrawn - the possible saviour of the Empire.

    Xen'Mordin: You provide arguments for Admiral Thrawn being the possible saviour of the Empire.
    Lucyeth: You provide arguments against Admiral Thrawn being the possible saviour of the Empire?


13-04-2014 01:30:33

Grand Admiral Thrawn, a brilliant military strategist. His leadership gave the falling Galactic Empire one last voice to unify behind. Until he was murdered in a betrayal at the hand of his own body guard, he was on the leading edge of destroying the New Republic and continuing the dominance of Palpatine’s Empire.

His abilities as a tactician and strategist are beyond doubt. In the Galactic Empire, Humans were the ruling class species. He was the sole non-human military leader in the highest ranks of the Empire’s military arm. Palpatine new and understood his incredible knowledge of military tactics. Thrawn would often directly refuse orders, or act of his own free will. The first time he did so, he was stripped of rank, but was quickly reinstated after the mission he said would fail, did so. From that point on, he was allowed to achieve goals as he deemed fit.

At the fall of the Empire due to the Battle of Endor, Thrawn was still patrolling the unknown regions. It was there the Republic failed to learn of his existence. As the newest Grand Admiral, Thrawn had a great deal of power and influence. But at this time the New Republic was coming off a tremendous win, including the deaths of Palpatine and Vader.

It was Thrawn who returned to the known regions of the galaxy and unified what was left of falling Empire. His skills as a leader and tactician pushed the New Republic nearly back to its demise. These victories included establishing a blockade on the planet of Coruscant.

Thrawn promoted creativity and loyalty in his men. He had no concern for personal glory, only the success of his mission and his crew for the greater strength of the Empire. He played to win, but knew when it was better to retreat and regroup, instead of fight to the bitter end. If he had continued his campaign against the New Republic, there is little doubt that they would have failed to find a military leader who could match Thrawn’s abilities.

To put it simply, Thrawn was the only person who had the skills to hold the Empire together. And he was winning, by a large margin. The New Republic only ultimately won, due to the single act of betrayal, a betrayal that ended in the murder of Thrawn in his own command chair. Thrawn not only gave the Empire a fighting chance after it seems so certain to be destroyed, but he was leading back to victory. Because of this, he was a savior of the Empire. A savior whose life was cut short to finish the job.


13-04-2014 13:28:47

Admiral Thrawn was granted Grand Admiral for being a tactician or great knowledge, but I believe that he is far short of that achievement. However, Thrawn had plenty of shortfalls that had ultimately cost the ability of the Empire to regain control of the galaxy.

Thrawn was exiled before for his actions that would never look good for a person of such high prestige and as a powerful figure of the imperial military. this is one prime example of his acts of disobeying direct orders has landed him into trouble. The Emperor didn’t take to kindly with disobeyed direct orders nor did his apprentice.

Thrawn was labeled as a man with great skill but if Palpatine knew that then why didn’t he utilize this great skill. If he was as skilled as a military tactician, then why would Palpatine send his great tactician into the unknown regions? He could be much more useful within important areas of the galaxy rather than “Mapmaking” in the unknown regions. This is a great example of Palpatine’s personal views of Thrawn. If Palpatine thought of him as a good military tactician, then he would have had him at the Battle of Endor rather than wasting his time in unknown regions.

Thrawn was nothing but personal glory in his own eyes. He took command of the Chimaera from Pellaeon and rounded up military, a remnant which was his biggest mistake. He concentrated forces into an armada which made for a larger target for the New Republic. He additionally kidnapped and played C’boath to helping him with his own goals. Both Pellaeon and C’boath are examples of Thrawn’s ruthlessness, not creativity or loyalty.


15-04-2014 15:54:08

I would like to thank my opponent for his thoughts on why Admiral Thrawn fell short as a savior of the Empire.

Firstly, Did Thrawn ultimately fail to keep the Empire in control of the galaxy. Obviously we know that the New Republic did in fact succeed in dismantling the bulk of the Empire’s dominion in the galaxy, with only a few holdouts still holding to the faith of the Empire. The Cocytus System falls in this category itself. But the New Republic’s success at taking down the Empire did not come from Thrawn’s own short comings. While Thrawn was still alive the Republic was in fact losing the war. His far superior strategies and tactics were giving the Empire the last stand it needed to stay in control.

No other Imperial leader could have unified the Empire following the death of the Emperor. The Empire lost Palpatine and Vader, as well as two Death Stars. That is a huge hit to the morale of the people of the Empire. That anyone was able to step up to lead them in this time is amazing.

Ultimately, the New Republic’s success came down to a fluke of luck and the act of betrayal by a single man, Ruhk, Thrawn’s bodyguard.

My opponent also raises the point of Thrawn being sent into a so-called exile by the Emperor. This is false. He was sent in exile by the Chiss Government. It was after this exile that Thrawn took up a commission as part of Empire’s Military.

Now did he disobey direct orders while part of the Empire’s Military? Yes frequently. But only the first time it happened was he “punished” with a demotion for failing to follow orders. When the person that replaced him did follow orders, and the outcome of the mission was exactly as Thrawn had predicted, he was reinstated back to his old position. From then on he faced no punishment and was allowed to disobey direct orders to approach missions in the style he saw fit.

My opponent suggests that the “mapmaking” mission Thrawn was on was a form of punishment. This was only part of Thrawn’s mission in the unknown regions. Yes he was to explore and document what was in the unknown regions of space. The thing about the unknown regions is they can hide all kinds of threats. The Empire’s control in the known regions of the galaxy was secure by this point. As well, the Death Star was well under construction. There was no true threat for Thrawn to deal with. He and Palpatine agreed that the unknown regions held the greatest possible threat. Thrawn was to explore and destroy any possible threat that could come from there. I would mention that the Yuuzhan Vong eventually did invade from the unknown regions and reeked havoc on the Galaxy and the New Republic.

Simply, Thrawn wasn’t sent out to the unknown regions because Palpatine thought he was a poor soldier. Thrawn was sent out to the unknown regions because Palpatine knew he was literally the only one who could do it. The unknown regions have always been a threat to the Galaxy. Even thousands of years ago, Revan after defeating Malak ventured into the unknown regions because he knew there were threats out there. That threat later manifested as a Sith Empire which invaded and cast the galaxy in civil war. The unknown regions have always been and will continue to be a threat to the safety of the known galaxy.

Finally to say Thrawn wanted nothing but personal glory is a mistake. He would do whatever it took to accomplish his missions. Yes he gained his own glory in the process, but it was far from the sole reason he acted as he did. Ruthlessness and creativity are not mutually exclusive ideas.


16-04-2014 20:21:47

A strong rebut by my opponent for defending Thrawn as a savoir of the Empire.

To start off, he had to form his own Empire in the unknown regions which would become known as the Empire of the Hand. Although, he undeniably had the New Republic to its knees, he fell short of the overall goal. Thrawn did fail to keep the galaxy under control by the Empire. It was a last stand that became historic in records but it still fell short of a victory for Thrawn in the end.

I disagree with my opponent that Thrawn was the only leader that would be able to rally the fragments of the Empire. There were many officers and admirals that were still across the galaxy that could have stepped up to the calling. When there is chaos from the death of a leader, another leader will rise up. This can be seen with countless events as it was a prime example of no leader. Everyone that was left had simply listened to the nearest voice to be heard which happened to be Thrawn. Pellaeon is just one example of any officer that had the ability to rally people for a new cause.

Additionally, Thrawn was killed through betrayal and this is how many leaders can fall. Many leaders will fall through a silent act of treachery and they never had caught sight of it until it was too late. Thrawn got so caught up in his strive for victory, he let his guard down and failed to sense danger within his own ranks.

I thank my opponent for pointing out my misconception of his exile. He was exiled by the Chiss Government, not the Emperor, but this is not to say that he was a great savoir. This is a perfect example of Thrawn disobeying orders in his past. These are not exemplary marks of a savior of great leadership status. He had a problem with the authority above him and any great leader doesn’t set a great example through deviance of superiors. This is his thinking of self-glory as he puts his own thoughts against his superiors which are frowned upon severely in military protocols as seen with his demotion. When the Empire became a fractured system after the second battle of Endor, they needed a leader who can rally the forces for a counter strike. His deviance of orders shows not only a lack of good leadership that can lead to distrust from other officers, but also a bad example to allow people to think they can outright defy and betray direct orders. This will inevitably lead to a disaster that will come back to the cause, which was Thrawn. Thrawn being allowed to disobey orders further increases the gap of a lack of good leadership and overall unification of the Imperial military.

Thrawn had a campaign in the unknown regions that was deemed mapmaking. He may have been sent to take care of factors within the unknown regions that could pose a threat to the Empire. I will not deny that there was a purpose for him to be in the unknown regions. There is without a doubt, threats in the unknown regions such as the Vuuzhan Vong, which my opponent mentioned. In terms of the Vong, they did wreak havoc across the galaxy when they came out of the unknown regions. If Thrawn was tasked to take care of threats, then why did we see the emergence of such a dangerous threat such as the Vong? I think it is safe to say that Palpatine sent him for another meaning as part of his plans. I believe that Thrawn was used as a simple distraction for the Emperor to accomplish his own goals without being noticed by the New Republic. A mere pawn in a much larger and important campaign that would exceed its use when the time came.

Whatever it takes to achieve his mission? Is he still a savoir of the empire when he risked his men and resources which he had few of, to acquire Ysalamir or a rogue jedi clone? These kind of missions of his put his men in jeopardy which is not what the Empire need at this point in time.


17-04-2014 16:36:15

The bulk of my opponents arguments seem to stem from the fact that Thrawn had a long standing track record of disobeying orders and doing things his own way. This is not a negative against Thrawn's role as a savior of the Empire. He disobeyed orders because he knew better than to follow foolish orders that would result in failure. Did this cause issues with the Chiss High Command? Yes, they exiled him on principle for disobeying orders, but still recognized that Thrawn had acted correctly to get his job done. Later on a single demotion in the Empire was quickly removed once they realized how correct Thrawn had been.

If any other leader in the Empire could have done what Thrawn did, why didn't they step up in the years between the death of the Emperor and when Thrawn returned from the Unknown Region? They Empire was falling apart until Thrawn came back and held it together. Thrawn's ultimate failure at finishing destroying the New Republic does not change that he was the single greatest chance the Empire had. Thrawn was very much the possible savior of the Empire. Had his bodyguard not betrayed him, the evidence shows that he was well on track to win.

My opponent also raises the interesting point of the Vong showing up later. He seems to think this is a sign of Thrawn's failure in the Unknown Region. It is not. The Unknown Region is a huge area of uncharted territory. Even today with the Vong no longer a threat, who knows what is lurking out there waiting to come attack the galaxy at large? Thrawn not coming across the Vong in his time out there is to be expected. We don't even have a perfect knowledge of the known regions of the galaxy. There are plenty of systems yet to be explored. This was not as my opponent says a safe assumption that Thrawn was a pawn. It isn't even close to that.

In closing, I do not believe my opponent has made a case against Thrawn being able to save the Galaxy. His arguments have been mainly focused on his criticisms of Thrawn’s leadership strategies. It is easy to question every leader’s decisions, but it is the outcome of those choices that matter. The outcome of Thrawn’s choices were that he was pushing the New Republic back. He was winning. The Empire was winning. This alone signals he had a strong chance of being the true savior of the Empire. But like many it was the weak convictions of those who served under him, that led to his betray and his death before he could finish his goal.


18-04-2014 09:48:07

My opponent claims that disobeying orders is not negative and that Thrawn did everything his way. However, this is a major flaw as a leader because he fails to show a role model example of what it is to be a leader. He was betrayed by his bodyguard and killed as a result. Not to say that this is a failure on the battle strategy of Thrawn at that point, but a perfect example of his disobeying of orders eventually backfiring on him. If he had demonstrated more qualities of a leader and encouraged following orders, his bodyguard may have feared more and hesitated to kill Thrawn. Although, his bodyguard killed him after the discovered demise of his people, this event may have been different if Thrawn obeyed orders more, the bodyguard may not have killed him with a stricter hierarchy of orders and respect throughout the chain of command.

Thrawn was the one to step up simply because he was the first to raise a voice for the Empire. With the Empire without a leader, everyone would have rallied behind any other officer that had an idea. It is the concept of a power grab in a time of chaos, which brings a unified order when any leader steps up.

The unknown regions are quite vast and there can be a substantial sum of threats that can it present to the galaxy. I do believe that he was sent there for a reason that may not have been known. Palpatine had him out there for a reason. What I make clear is that it could be more than a coincidence that Thrawn came back to wage war on the New Republic. When he was defeated, the reborn Emperor presented a threat that the New Republic could not ignore. Palpatine may have sent Thrawn out into the unknowns for more than eliminating threats to the Empire.

These are not just criticisms of the leadership of Thrawn as my opponent would say. These factors had an impact on how Thrawn fell short as a savoir for the Empire. Was he winning? Yes he was. Did he almost bring the New Republic to its knees? Yes. Did he win the galaxy? No. Did he destroy the New Republic? No. The weak conviction of his inferiors was a primary example of why he cannot possibly be a savoir to the Empire. He came close to his goal, but yet he didn’t succeed because of his wrong actions in the past such as following orders, cost him the morals and overall respect of his closest men, like his bodyguard.

I would like to now, formally take the time to thank my opponent for the debate and his general arguments with evidence on Thrawn as a savior to the Empire.