GJW X Debate: Light Jedi; Yay or Nay?


18-09-2011 18:16:32

The Dark Council has come to each individual Clan and House system to discuss the issue with the light jedi currently a part of the Brotherhood. Opinions on both sides of the issue have formed, with both sides putting forth their arguments to the Dark Council on whether or not to keep these light jedi around.

In Odan-Urr a similar conversation takes place between themselves and whether to continue to stay a part of the Brotherhood or find their own path away from the darkness

Light Jedi; Yay or Nay? Debate Event
-The debate will be conducted in specially designated forums, already set up for each House/Clan. Passwords may be obtained from Consuls and Quaestors
-Each Clan/House will decide who will form the two teams that will debate one another
-Clan/House members will debate one another on whether or not it is a good idea to have the light jedi as part of the DJB
-Members of Odan-Urr will debate on whether it is a good idea for them to stay with the DJB
-There must be a minimum of 3 members per team and each member must post to count for participation
-Same person may not post back-to-back for their team
-Same team cannot post back-to-back
-Cannot edit your post once another post is up
-To “count” for participation a post must be at least 250 words in length
-Debate is to be “In Character”

-Entries will be graded on Grammar, Readability, Continuity and Persuasiveness of argument
-If a Clan or House is not able to get the requisite minimum number of participants, or have a completed debate, they will earn no points

Either side may begin with their opening statement


22-09-2011 19:29:42

Ronovi Tavisaen, of the Team FOR Odan-Urr

Military. Philosophy. Science. The arts. All of these are necessary for influence. All of these are necessary for power.

We've come a very, very long way since our founding, and especially since the Exodus. We have established ourselves as a powerful yet hidden presence in several dominions across the galaxy. Citizens of various systems are influenced by our work and our proceedings behind the curtains of their puppet governments. This is because we have learned to adapt. We have learned, in one word...to grow.

However, you cannot have growth or power without challenges. This is why I am arguing that the Light Jedi of Odan-Urr should be allowed and contained within the Dark Jedi Brotherhood's dominions.

Now, hear me out on this: I don't like Light Jedi any more than you do. Hell, I was nearly forced to convert during the Reclamation of Antei five years ago. However, I can't say I've been able improved my strength or skill as a fighter, tactician, and - yes - a scholar without the presence of the light side. The light side and the understanding of it has helped me in my search for knowledge and the perfection of my power.

This is because of the importance of perspectives. Comprehending different philosophies. Putting two and two together in terms of influence and growth. Without military conquests over an enemy, without a well-rounded mind of the dark side as well as the light side...we cannot grow in power. We will only grow in power if we face challenges.

The question is and will always remain if we do not act on this need: How can we expect to hold onto power if we do not continually find better ways, strategies, and techniques to keep it in our grasp? Do you honestly think that we would have such a strong hold on Antei again were it not for the fact that we crushed an opposition of light Jedi? Was it when we defeated Crask that we achieved a better understanding of our opponents and our own capabilities, so that we could hone them further like a fine blade?

Therefore, it is of my opinion that a contained light Jedi force - one that is observed and monitored - may be essential to our influences on the societies we watch over. We keep crushing the light Jedi, and people will understand the weight and velocity of the dark side. If we are to prevail in this back-and-forth match of power, then we must understand and test our mettle against the forces who oppose us. And that is why I think Odan-Urr should exist.


22-09-2011 20:41:04

Wuntila Zratian Entar, of the Team AGAINST Odan-Urr

To assert that the Jedi may be a force of balance in the Brotherhood dominion is to overlook some quite obvious facts.

To keep the Jedi of Odan-Urr around as little more than an institution, destined to represent a greater threat to the galaxy, for the Brotherhood to pick at and destroy to encourage growth and assert dominance is not only an insult to the Jedi of Odan-Urr, but an insult to the Dark Brotherhood itself. If we admit that we need to retain the Jedi as caged pets to prod and tease for self-promotion, then we admit that the Brotherhood is becoming stale, weak even, and that is something I do not wish to do.

We are, on the contrary, moving forward; the rise of the reclanned and the rejuvenation of the other houses lays testament to that fact. If we are to assume the Jedi pose any real threat to us – other than a tool that the Brotherhood can use to degrade itself – then to keep them around is simply dangerous. We are polar opposites in both philosophy and practise, so attempting to reach any real agreement is farfetched at best, and to manipulate or control them would be something I dare say we could not do. Thus, there is nothing they can provide if we are unable to compromise.

Similarly, the Jedi position on societal growth and power differ substantially to ours; if we allow them to spread a message of internal peace for the development of society then we will be passively encouraging rebellion. We will be unable to find better strategies and techniques to contain power, as Ronovi pointed out, if we allow rifts to form in the belief of the populations.

Yet, even taking into account these points, we still overlook a simple fact: we cannot trust the Jedi. They are predicated by the fact that they oppose our perspective on The Force, so to trust them is to open the Brotherhood up to betrayal.

Ultimately, The Jedi of Odan-Urr can be described as mismatched at best. This is not only with their eclectic, and growing, collection of Force philosophies – including, but not limited to the acceptance of gray Jedi – but also within the frailty of their leadership. Since entering the Brotherhood dominion they have presented themselves as inherently weak through the high turnover they have had in leadership. They have been through two Quaestors and they have lost a Battleteam Leader – from what our intelligence can gather – which can only speak to internal unrest. This is reinforced by the fact that they have seen many of their initial Jedi fall to the Dark Side. Logically, this can only be associated with the inflexibility of the Jedi Code and its opposition of basic instinct, which is simple contradiction.

Beyond doubt, this shows that their regimented adherence to the restrictive Jedi Code results in weakness and this is something the Brotherhood cannot admit.

It is for these reasons, among others, that the Jedi cannot be tolerated within the Brotherhood dominion any longer.

We seem to be forgetting the old adage: in the absence of light, darkness prevails. It is this, above all else, that I agree with.


22-09-2011 23:51:15

Invictus, of the Team FOR Odan-Urr

If you will forgive the impertinence, Wuntila, your argument that using the Jedi of Odan-Urr to encourage growth is an insult to the Dark Brotherhood is fundamentally flawed. There are, in fact, two things you seem to have overlooked.

First, as Dark Jedi we use everyone around us on a regular basis. The entire Modus Operandi of the Sith, after all, is to use those beneath and around us to the benefit of our cause, regardless of the cost (personal or otherwise).

Secondly, you assert that it is wrong to suggest staleness, or weakness, in the Brotherhood. I would caution you to reflect on the subject of our debate before making such assertions. The Jedi Order once felt the same, and those very assumptions led to their downfall at the hands of a Sith, using a Jedi as the instrument of their destruction. While the details differ, the proposed retention of Ordan-Urr to further the goals of the Brotherhood is fundamentally the same as Palpatine's actions. We use them, we grow through them, we twist them to suit our purposes – and in the end, we take that strength and rule with it.

You claim that the philosophical schism between the Light Jedi and the Dark will ferment rebellion. I say: let it. Whether an individual, a species, or a society, challenge and the struggle for supremacy is necessary for growth. Any species that exists without competition for resources becomes stagnant and, eventually, prey for other species who have to compete for resources of their own. The same is true for individuals - a life without struggle is a life of unrealized potential since we, none of us, know our limits until we are thrown against them. For a society, such as the Brotherhood, it is only when faced with challenges to our fundamental beliefs that we can grow. Light Jedi provide those social challenges through the disparity between their doctrine and our own. Likewise, the inevitable periodic armed conflicts that will arise provide the needed challenges for individual growth.

It is true, as you say, that we cannot trust the Jedi. I would put forth, however, that the veracity of that statement is one of the few things we have in common. How many wars have we had amongst ourselves? How many betrayals? It is the nature of the Brotherhood that we all maneuver to gain power and prestige, that we all betray and are betrayed in turn. It keeps us strong, it keeps us sharp, and - when it fails to kill us - it keeps us alive.

The Jedi or Odan-Urr strengthen our numbers, but more importantly they strengthen us. Whether as individuals or as a whole, the constant challenging of our believes serves to keep us vigilant. How can we know our own beliefs to be right if we are not faced with those who think we are wrong? How can any of us grow lax, how can any of us sleep soundly, knowing we have a potential enemy cozened to our breasts?

In the absence of light, darkness prevails. And yet, wherever light should travel it finds darkness already there, waiting for it.


23-09-2011 23:51:35

Etah d'Tana, of the Team AGAINST Odan-Urr

Invictus, you could not be mistaken for being of any Order but the Sith. You reek of its weakness and it's stench weaves itself throughout your argument.

You claim that it is the way of the Sith to manipulate people and you are of course right. To use people is most definitely Sith-like, but might I remind you that the Brotherhood is made of three Orders. The diversity of these three orders is our greatest strength. It is the interaction between these three philosophies that save us from the staleness both you and Wuntila spoke of.

To a warrior of the Obelisk order, the idea of making yourself stronger by using others is repulsive. This is because manipulating others to gain power is the philosophy of the weak. That way requires finding your power in others, rather than in yourself. When it is within oneself that true power can be found, nurtured and grown.

You go on to paint the picture of a Dark Jedi Brotherhood that grows more powerful by utilizing internal conflict. A continual fight within ourselves, that allows the strong to prosper and the weak to fall. Far from being the Obelisk way of finding power from within oneself, this is rooted in manipulation and is among the most ancient of Sith philosophies.

That being said, history has seen the philosophy of strength through internal conflict play out many times. How did this anachronistic concept work for the Sith Empire of Exar Kun? How did this philosophy play out for the Sith Empire of Revan? Was it likewise effective for the Dark Brotherhood of Kaan? Time and time again, internal conflict has brought ruin to the Sith. Let the Dark Jedi Brotherhood stop this tragic cycle of futility.

In order to stop this cycle, we must stand strong together. Our loyalties must be to Clan, Brotherhood and the Final Way. The Jedi of Odan-Urr can never be totally loyal to the Dark Summit. They are not the somewhat reasonable Gray Jedi, they are as inflexible and deluded as the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order, the Jedi followers of Omancor Crask and as the Jedi of the New Jedi Order. Their code is mutually exclusive with our philosophies. The question isn't if they will betray us, but when, how and how much they will hurt our Brotherhood.

Some would make the argument that the House of Odan-Urr is small and weak and thus not a threat. But size and strength are relative. With the Jedi of Odan-Urr within our ranks we either weaken ourselves by spreading our military assets out to protect us from both without and within, or we weaken ourselves by giving a potential enemy our collective unguarded backs.

Whether it is by stabbing us in our backs, by throwing our gates open to our enemies or reporting our darkest whisperings to those whom we would least like to hear them, the Jedi of Odan-Urr are a dangerous fifth column and should be destroyed.


24-09-2011 17:41:19

Strategos Thanatos Entar Arconae, of the Team FOR Odan-Urr

If I might interject, Etah, in your philosophical zeal you've overlooked a number of factors. First off, as you so rightly put it, some would say that Odan-Urr is too weak to be a threat. I say hire those people and put them in charge, because that's exactly the case. These Light-Siders came to us already in a position of weakness, and basically offered to surrender their territories in exchange for being spared a much more grueling fate. In military terms, any other House could crush them - yet they don't.

Which brings me to my second point, that rather than showing weakness, the presence of these Light Jedi is precisely what this Brotherhood needs to further enhance its dominance over the Force. Gone are the days of monomaniacal sects that focused purely on the darkest and most destructive aspects of the Force - we are more subtle, more diversified, more advanced than that. Our members already use several Light Side powers, we have accepted Gray Jedi into our folds, and let's face it, the strictest interpretation of the Sith Code would not even allow for Clans and Houses as we know them. This move will be just another in a long list, aimed at advancing our goals and, ultimately, increasing our power even further.

Tying in neatly with that would be my final argument, perhaps the simplest of all: think of the conversions! These poor Jedi have already made a staggering concession purely in joining an organization with goals such as ours. They are surrounded by, and constantly confronted with, the rampant success of our Dark Side methods, and even as we assimilate their techniques, seeds of doubt are planted in their minds. I'm not going to elaborate on the psychological process of losing one's faith system, but the clear situation is that we have a substantial pool of potential Dark Jedi in our midst - some of them have already crossed over.

Combine this with the general lack of threat they present and the advantages in assimilating different Force techniques, and you'd be mad deciding to eradicate them now. After all, that resort will always be available to us.


24-09-2011 19:42:31

Talos Erinos, of the Team AGAINST Odan-Urr

Strategos, while I understand and even agree with some of your points, mainly the conversions, I must bring up an important point that I feel cannot be mentioned enough and that is the possible alliance of this House Odan-Urr with the greater forces of the New Jedi Order and the Galactic Alliance. It could happen. Will it, I cannot say? Is the possibility high...probably not, I admit that freely.

BUT WAIT! Before we just shrug off the assumption that the Leadership of House Odan-Urr could make some pact with the GA and NJO, let us take a look at history and how, time and again, the underdog has won out:

1) Did Darth Sidious and his Moffs believe that a lone, rookie pilot and novice Jedi could possess the capability and prowess to fire two small missles into a tiny reactor port in a laser-ridden trench? Absolutely not! But it happened.
2) Before that, did Darth Maul, a scion of the Dark Side and blademaster in his own right, believe that a young Jedi Padawan by the name of Obi-Wan Kenobi could defeat him in single combat? While we cannot ask Lord Maul, I'm confident that he would have said 'no'. Yet it happened.
3) Going even further back in the annals of history, did the forces of Mandalore the Lesser honestly think that their blockade of the Hydian Way could be broken? No! Even the Republic thought it was beyond them...yet all it took was one smuggler by the name of Hylo Viz to bring down that blockade.

The point I'm trying to make here is that while Odan-Urr has signed accords with the Dark Council to remain non-hostile with our organization, something could happen. Chances are that a vast majority of these blasted "Light Jedi" are to timid to try anything, being afraid of the repercussions (with good reason), or to caught up with the protection and administration of their beloved New Tython, but all it takes is one. One Luke Skywalker or one Obi-Wan Kenobi or one Hylo Viz. Just one to start the downfall of our beloved Brotherhood.

I am not blind to the usefulness that these Odanites pose, but I say that when we take a step back and look at the situation, which I encourage all of us to do, the long-term risks of keeping them around outweigh the immediate beneficial effects. Yes, converts to the Dark Side strengthen our Brotherhood and that is good, but we hardly need Light Jedi for that. Besides, with a chunk of the Light Jedi being "reformed" Dark Brethren, how can we trust one that was a Dark Jedi, redeemed him or herself, and then fell back to the Dark? To use a saying I picked up on Tatooine during an operation with Oblivion Brigade: "A thrice baked bantha burger is no burger at all".

Any twice-fallen Dark Jedi wouldn't be a Dark Jedi at all; they couldn't be trusted with Clan or House secrets, nor could they be relied on in the heat of battle, or chosen to take on some of the more "darker" tasks, such as population subjugation, that are, at times, necessary.

To close, my brethren and sister, I can only reaffirm my view that Light Jedi do not belong here. They cannot be trusted as a whole to not make some sort of alliance with a greater force that could actually pose a threat to us (remember, it only takes one) and any converts that come about can hardly be trusted to have the passion, drive, and stomach that is required to be a true Sith or a true Obelisk or a true Krath. It would only take one little spark to ignite a conflict that pitches the Dark Jedi Brotherhood against the New Jedi Order or the Galactic Alliance and that is a risk we cannot take.

So I say once again...no Light Jedi!


24-09-2011 21:30:35

Ronovi Tavisaen, of the Team FOR Odan-Urr

It appears, Talos, that you as well as the rest of your team are relying heavily on situational theories. And...if I may spell it out bluntly...fears. Your words reek of paranoia regarding retaliation, and your incapability of acknowledging the potential strength we may gain from such a plentiful source of converts and punching bags, if I may call them that, is thoroughly disappointing.

Let me remind you, brothers, that the Odanites are no Luke Skywalker. We are also no Darth Vader. We do not allow ourselves to make mistakes, or lapses in judgment, just as Vader did. We are keen enough not to allow a weakness in our system similar to the gap in the Death Star. We are smart and able with our fortifications, defenses, and military forces. Why, then, with your anxieties, must you discredit the Dark Jedi Brotherhood, your own home, in terms of its prowess and vigilance? Have we not learned from history enough in order not to repeat it?

Let me remind each and every one of you that strength does not simply come from within - if that were so, we'd all be Dark Prophets and Grand Masters. I could practice by myself and imagine the opponent in front of me...imagine the Jedi approaching...as much as I'd like. But that won't perfect my punch or my Force knowledge, my skills with a lightsaber or a dagger. We grow in power not only through knowledge, but also through experience. I could not safely say I could take down a Jedi if I hadn't done so already. I have killed Jedi, and only after I had truly read them like texts and understood the inner workings of their minds.

None of you opposed to Odan-Urr's presence, for all your arguments, have given us a reasonable alternative to properly knowing and defeating our enemies! We have Jedi at our disposal: to kill, to convert, and to learn from like lab rodents. The Brotherhood has enough people and enough sources to ensure that no man may infringe upon our borders without ultimately being defeated. The Brotherhood has enough strength to take on any possible rebellion from such a fragile sect of Jedi on New Tython. If we are so resistant to using these Jedi for better purposes, as pawns in our game, because we think it makes us look bad...then we are admitting a fear of the Jedi. That they cripple us. That they have some power over us. And I don't know about you, but I respect the Brotherhood enough to know that we have the advantage. Not the Jedi.

Why be afraid of learning from the pseudo-successes and inevitable failures of the Order? The Odanites are there in our territory - they are our toys! Why eliminate them when there is so much potential to mold them and, if we are not able to conform them to our standards, murder them to make an example of our power? How can we be so nervous that we let an opportunity to show that the Jedi are no match for us slip through our fingers like sand? I am not nervous. I am not afraid. And I will not claim weakness when Odan-Urr is resting in the palm of our hand and revealing that we are in fact strong enough to use them as a valuable resource! They are a beautiful tool - do not discard them because you think we are not capable enough to stifle any frivolous uprisings that will only result in negative consequences for them.

I think I, as well as my fellow teammates, have said enough. Contain these Jedi, and we shall attain knowledge and power from their persistent presence and futile opposition. The argument for Odan-Urr, house of the light side, remains stable and strong. We have spoken.


24-09-2011 22:58:09

Wuntila Zratian Entar, of the Team AGAINST Odan-Urr

The assertion that the premise of the Sith is to manipulate others to benefit our cause is, by its very nature, flawed in itself. Etah brought up a significant point which is that the Modus Operandi of the Sith may be to influence, but the Obelisk and the Krath seem to deviate from this school of thought quite substantially. Perhaps it may be an encapsulating theory based around the inherent features of those who follow the Dark Side, but to assume that the vast majority of those in the Brotherhood are, by their very nature, manipulators above all else, rules out the fact that we collaborate and sacrifice on a daily basis. We are a collection of units that cooperate and reciprocate in order for the greater survival of the cause; this does not mean that we are willing to manipulate our own if it means personal or Clan-wide gain. This seems to be the suggestion, considering allowing the Jedi to remain in Brotherhood space is to allow them access to the Brotherhood as a facility.

Similarly, how are we to use something that lacks real substance? Their weakness may be underrated, but if not, we are simply relying on a force that we cannot afford. The staleness and weakness I presented previously was in the realms of the Jedi of Odan-Urr, not the Brotherhood itself. In essence, to allow the Jedi to remain is to give them the opportunity, however unlikely, to stage a rebellion against the Brotherhood, and that is something to which we cannot afford to fall victim.

This is all presumption, however; the Jedi lack the strength and conviction to stage a rebellion and, by that token, they lack the necessary power to substantiate a ‘struggle’ for supremacy. If we are to find an adversary against which to pit our might, surely a fragile institution with fractured leadership is not one to use in such regard. Let us not forget that we have already proved our worth during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

As for the argument based on the philosophical diversity and subsequent broadening of knowledge: with the presence of the Light-side, one must return to the very basics of the difference between our two factions. Although both are, in their own right, strong philosophies of the Force, the difference between the two makes the concept of diversifying and ultimately utilising both branches of these philosophies foolhardy. The regimented and suppressive message of the Jedi Code is the antithesis to that of the code we follow; furthermore, the Jedi assert that to deviate from this code is to fall to the Dark Side, making it inconceivable to master both arts.

We may not be the children of 'Darth Vader', but we are still vulnerable to making the same mistakes. Let us not forget that we lost our home to the Yuuzhan Vong and it was two years before we were able to retake what was rightfully ours - and, I might add, at a drastic cost. The idea that we learn from them is a valid one. So is the idea that to keep them around is to provide ourselves with the knowledge to defeat the Jedi, but as I have mentioned previously, the Jedi of Odan-Urr are a mismatch, some adhering to the old code, some to the new, and some to the gray; so how are we to study such a disorganised rabble when they cannot decide what to study themselves. The fact of the matter is that we have already moulded those who are willing. The rest are expendable. Those who are willing to accept the philosophies we teach are those worthy of our time and the others ought to be discarded. That is the fate of the weak.

In summation, one point remains: the fact that they’ve allowed themselves to become vassals to the Brotherhood means that they are, by their actions, defying the Jedi code. Anyone with any scratch of judicial knowledge knows that to witness an act and stand by idly whilst the act is committed is as bad as committing the act oneself. The Jedi have stood by idly without attempting to quell the Brotherhood’s very nature, so they are, by the same logic, as much to blame for our wrongdoings as we are. This suggests to me that those who call themselves ‘Light’ or ‘Gray’ are simply a self-righteous incarnation of the Dark Side, with delusions of grandeur as to their philosophical beliefs. In addition, the Brotherhood ought to cut dead weight from the organisation as a whole, and as a unit which provides little to not diversity - which Strategos said was a defining factor in the argument to retain the Jedi - Odan-Urr falls neatly into the "dead weight" category.

It is for this reason, amongst the others, that the Jedi of Odan-Urr should be crushed under the weight of the Brotherhood and their presence eradicated from our once semi-stable system.

We live for the dark, we live by the dark, we live in the dark. Let us keep it that way.