Discussion On Time

Muz Ashen

22-11-2009 12:58:41


For several years now, we had adopted a 2 years in-character to 1 year in real life. We consider the day of the fox and exodus days as new years. We did this to speed up the timeline to get us to a time when stuff happened, like the vong war, etc. Having gotten to that timeframe, I have been debating slowing down the roll of years to make it even to real life.

What do you guys think? Should we keep it set at a 2:1 ratio, or should we slow it down?


22-11-2009 16:11:30

Honestly, I find the 2:1 ratio to be a comfortable way to run the DB. The problem with slowing it down to real time is that working in the same fictional year for so long is going to feel sluggish. Also, with the many competitions that entail month-long storylines for clans, the 2:1 ratio works because it feels more accurate to the amount of chronological time the Brotherhood's story is developing. Otherwise, clans are going to be getting a fiendish amount of crazy work done in just one year.

Also, I find it really fun to see my character aging faster than I do. That way, I can still enjoy the DB at a younger age and be able to write my character's story without having to worry about the fact that in order for my character to be fifty years, I have to be fifty. xD


22-11-2009 16:13:58

We're running out of years.

Slow down.


22-11-2009 16:28:30

I've got a lot of experience on this subject, given my previous time with the Allegience Battle Group (SW D6 Simming Group).

The key issue with slowing down the timeline; is it will virtually lock us in place time wise. Where we would be 10 years from now (20 years timeline), would be halved compared to if we stayed with the 2:1 style.

Even though we are past the Vong, there is still a lot of ground to be covered between now and the later timelines in the future. Even if we run out of ideas, the same would occur regardless if we did drop down to 1:1, but over a longer period of time.

There's always things to create however. Times when we ran out of ideas, we innovated. Portal to an alternate timeline and we would have to protect the integrity of what happens; despite what we want. Creating a new species that threatens to destroy us all; and even has the power to turn some of us under it's power and control us like puppets.

Even Pizza the Hutt who wants to take control of the Universe's Food Chains and make people eat nothing but Pizza.

Keeping things at 2:1 allows us to diversify and time moves forward at a steady pace that way we can continue to incorporate actual events along with custom created events. The ABG existed in an 'Alternate Reality' scheme, to where pretty much anything could happen. If we shifted to that same style, while remaining at the 2:1 timeline ratio; the possibilities could be virtually limitless.

The downside to going to 1:1 I fear, is that it would stagnate us since it will take double the time to get to the next big event later down the line.

My opinion...remain as 2:1.


22-11-2009 22:22:56

Regardless of whether it is 1:1 or 2:1, I would hope that the Brotherhood could come up with new events and the like on its own without having to drag stuff from the EU of dubious quality (such as the Vong War) and use that. I don't particularly like the idea of "alternate timelines" or any of that stuff since, in my experience, it usually starts a slippery slope where we end up going snout-first toward the brick wall of silliness and just throwing anything approaching canon out the window. I think staying within the generally accepted confines of the EU (which is already pretty damn silly in a lot of areas) is fine, but there really should be an emphasis on people coming up with their own plots and telling their own stories with their own made-up characters, planets, etc.

I would argue only for 1:1 because it would force people to use their own creativity more rather than eagerly awaiting the next novel series so we can take it and put a DB twist on it. Still, I think 1:1 versus 2:1 is largely irrelevant as the issue is more about whether we want to be beholden to the EU or whether we want to do our own thing and make a reputation on being original.


22-11-2009 22:25:11

I agree with Aidyn, on this one. A 2:1 ratio is much better then a 1:1. Time in the Allegience Battle Group goes by incredibly slow, and eventually becomes too long (I know because I'm a member, as is Teu, Erinyes, Dismal, etc etc). Aidyn has already voiced this, and I believe it's the right opinion.

I'm going to say 2:1.


22-11-2009 23:45:05

I also like the 2:1 ratio, and personally would even vote for a 3:1 ratio is our two holidays did not line up so perfectly. Slowing it down would definitely stall us fictionally, and even at the current speed we are in no way running out of time. Most of our members are younger, and even the older ones could use good-ole Dark Side magic to extend lifespans as needed. EU-wise, Legacy is currently running at like 150 ABY or something, and we're only 32, or 33....


23-11-2009 02:41:32

I agree. Even if we did go 3:1, the time comparison is right here. So say we reach year 40...

Current Year: 40 ABY
Add Calender Years: 20
Final Standard Year: 60 ABY

Current Year: 40 ABY
Add Calender Years: 20
Final Standard Year: 80 ABY

Current Year: 40 ABY
Add Calender Years: 20
Final Standard Year: 100 ABY

Current Year: 40 ABY
Add Calender Years: 20
Final Standard Year: 120 ABY

So as you see...even if we speed up, we still won't reach the end of the current time period for well over another 20 years.

Over Twenty Years. Even 5:1 we still would not reach it. xD


23-11-2009 06:04:17

Yeah, this post is long, it's grown over the course of the day from a paragraph to an essay. Sorry. :P

Anyhow, by large I don't think it makes a massive lot of difference, though on the whole I think 2:1 works better for the kind of epic storylines we tend to like to do in GJWs and such (e.g. do we really want to see Antei invaded every single year? Or Clans having their cities razed and rebuilt that often? Or music chairs with each new Dark Lord of the Sith's reign being cut in half of what the old ones were? :P Seriously though, that obviously applies to more than just GMs, as while CONs and QUAs will always change faster than top jobs usually change in reality for such things, I always feel the old EH 1:1 ratio made the musical chair CON terms look fairly silly on the Clan storylines).

Like others have said, I also tend to find it fun for characters to not only age but also grow up faster. It's nice for people to be able to get to know each other, get married, make babies... whatever. Even in 2:1 a lot of that stuff is a bit hurried, but I feel we might deadlock ourselves more were we to slow it down--well, either deadlock, or people are going to be entering a level of musical chair relationships and promiscuity that even real life can't compete with. :P

I don't think there's any major threat of running into issues with the books or anything either really. Provided stories are written creatively and not just ripped off of the EU verbatim, things can always be done whenever we like. CNS fought the Vong a couple of months ago, even though the main Vong Empire was defeated 2 years ago. The story just had to be a bit unique rather than being lifted straight out of a book. From rival Sith groups, to alien races like the Killiks or Charon, to life threatening machine races like the Abominor, to ancient buried evils. We've done alien races with the Vong, we've explored buried evils in the past with Okemi, but there's still loads of other possibilities left to tap--even endless when we start to count our own creations like Crask and his fascist band of crusaders of the light.

Currently, the books themselves are in 43.5 ABY. Even if we stick to 2:1, we won't reach 43 ABY until April 2015. But by 2015 the books will probably have moved on and be another 10 or more years down the line and detailing the life of Ben Skywalker's children or whatever... so there isn't a lot to worry about with us ever ending up in alien territory where the galaxy might later get blown up before we realised. We'll always be playing catch up, so will always be able to pace ourselves sensibly.

Either way, in the current timeframe there's not a whole lot happen now anyway in the EU. There was the Vong War which killed quadzillions, but after that until they decide to write in another huge war (which means it won't affect us until at least 2015 or later) we've currently got a lot of creative freedom, even at 2:1.

The only things that might involve us (emphasis on the might, as the way things currently stand there's pretty much nothing we need worry about until Darth Krayt in 127 ABY--that could change, but again not until gone 2015, so there'll be years to plan ahead) are the Swarm War of 35-36 ABY (2011) where people around the galaxy went a bit crazy after drinking too much Killik nectar, but we can completely ignore the Swarm War if we wanted to--it wasn't exactly a huge thing, it was more a border conflict on the edge of the Unknown Regions really and a near-war with the Chiss. It was far more a "could have been... but was averted before it got that far" non-war. If anything, it's probably more RoS-scale than a full GJW, since the most it'd probably lead to would be hidden Killik nests growing up somewhere in the Clan systems and some short-lived civil war action.

(It could well be bigger than that, there could well be a mighty Dark Nest arise somewhere, say, led by an Elder who has become a Joiner and now threatens the DB as a whole... but that comes back to being creative again: we can do a story like that whenever we want to, since it wouldn't need to be tied directly into the main Swarm War, but could just involve a leftover nest that some DJM with a grudge later stumbled into and subsequently melded his/her hatred with the hive, leading to the entire swarm to wish the DB's destruction too. We could do all that in 2011... or we could do it right now... or we could leave it until 2021... or we could choose to never do it at all and focus on other things. So the Killiks basically offer the freedom to do a Starship Troopers bug invasion story whenever we wanted to.)

Then, the other main conflict is the Second Galactic Civil War against Darth Caedus in 40-41 ABY, but despite the grandiose name the actual war lasted about six months and was more a load of more local oriented secessionist anarchy, i.e. Planet A has always disliked Planet B, so used the war as an excuse to attack Planet B. So, again, we can pretty much ignore it if we wanted to. Obviously, we don't have to, and once we reach it (in 2013-2014) it could be fun to, say, use it as background in which to take advantage of the galactic disorder and conquer a few new systems or something, but it's still nowhere near the level of the Vong War in terms of being something that would need to affect any of the DB worlds. It just could if we wanted it to. But with only one Sith threatening the galaxy, it's not like we can have a whole lot to do with the main SkySolo story either way... we'd just be taking advantage of the second separatist movement.

(Which doesn't necessarily mean we need to do things by 2014, as the more recent books have left things a bit ambiguous whether all the worlds of the Confederation rejoined the Galactic Alliance or if some have been allowed to retain more independence. For DB purposes? We could, for example, just claim there were still some worlds that seceded and are no longer defended by the GA. It'd obviously probably be more fun to say we were this second secretive Sith movement taking advantage of the main chaos Caedus was causing elsewhere, but the official time scale doesn't need to restrict us if we don't want it to... we'd just need to be a bit more creative if we did it later on.)

The current book series in 43 ABY so far hasn't got a galactic war and doesn't look like it plans to. It seems more about the Star Wars equivalent of Cthulhu emerging from the Maw to devour all Force users and become Legion. Might that involve us? Again, it's a maybe, but also a maybe not. It's easy enough to just brush over the six month reemergence of the last of the Elder Gods than it was a six year alien invasion, so whether we involved Abeloth having any affect on any DB people would be entirely up to us.

(Unlike the Killiks or Confederation, Abeloth admittedly is one of the few things we would need to coordinate our timelines with, so she'd be 2015 or never. However, without her causing a war, I don't really know what we'd do with her anyway. Maybe Arcona, living close to the Maw, would all lose their memories and be driven mad... but... yeah... Unless something bigger happens over the course of Abeloth's release, she doesn't really offer much in the way of a GJW. At least, nothing we haven't already done with Okemi previously driving half the DB nuts. And as Luke Skywalker will probably be the one to defeat her, I don't really know what any of us could do anyway. Have a GJW that just miraculous ends when Abeloth is slain by the Jedi elsewhere? I think Abeloth is more just a case of "inspiration we could adapt for a story of our own" than something the DB would ever directly interact with. Just, in this case, we've already done basically the same story previously. So, in this case, they're copying us, not us copying them. :P)

All this said, if we go 1:1 we'll hit 43 ABY in April 2020. By then we can pretty much guarantee that the EU will have moved on and be well into the 50s, if not the 60s by then. While I think any faster than 2:1 does run the risk of us overshooting the EU, which could well lead us to miss out on some cool stuff if we only find out about it after the fact; the counterpoint with 1:1 is that 2020 seems... a long way away. In the end I think there's drawbacks no matter what we pick. 3:1 seems a bit fast; 1:1 seems a bit slow; 2:1 I guess averages things. Part of me does think "2015 is pretty soon for the Galactic Civil War", but then the other part of me remembers the Exodus was "only" 6 years ago, but obviously the Exodus was freaking ages ago, so I think 2015 is actually way longer away than it sometimes sounds on paper.

At 2:1, we'll be in 54 ABY come 2020; while that sounds a lot, I'd like to think it safe to say the EU will have advanced at least that far in the next 10 years--and that'd mean the EU only going at 1:1! I don't recall the EU ever going slower than real life, and even when a book series only covers a year or so, they usually at least move 2 or 3 years between series. Given the EU is in 43 ABY currently, the idea of Ben only being 26 in 2020 seems... really, really slow.

Admittedly, though they frog leaped from the end of the Vong War forward 10 years to the Second Galactic Civil War, they've slowed right down again after a lot of backlash of lost time exploring Ben's youth. So, the only real worry is perhaps if they keep releasing 9-book series over 3 years but only advancing 1 or 2 years each time. Whether they jump forward again or not is hard to say, but on the whole it seems to be the EU's general modus operandi and I can see them tiring of writing "Ben as a kid" books in the not so distant future... I generally feel that right now they're just trying to make up for what they didn't do in the 30s, but you can only have a 16 year old following his dad around so long.

The books have been falling over themselves recently to set up the New Galactic Empire as soon as they can with Emperor Jagged Fel, so chances are that will be dominating their urge to leap frog again and explore the rise of the Imperial Knights or something once they get done with the aftermath of Darth Caedus... which really is what the whole Cthulhu story is a by-product of, despite Caedus himself already being defeated. I can see them wanting to boost ahead after this to have a clean slate again, so I'll genuinely be surprised if come 2020 they've only moved on 10 years to reach 54 ABY.

Well, unless they get so terrified of going on without Luke that time practically freezes to milk Luke's last active years as much as possible.


23-11-2009 06:09:13

I support Aidyn.

2:1 worked and works. Why change it? The essential part of this club is creativity and role-play...there are members here who can write a better story than 10, 20, or 30 EU authors, Xanos, Raken, Muz, Jac, Dash...to name but a few of larger significance...If we looked deeper, so to say, towards the other members we'd find even more talent.

Besides as Tavisaen said...I dont want to be fifty when my character is fifty :P

Robin Hawk

23-11-2009 12:27:02

I like the 2:1 ratio, though I don't like my character getting older then me. :P Playing something you are not and want to be is usually more fun. But then again, I am one of the older members, who wants to stay young. I can understand why younger members want to play older characters, but honestly, hitting puberty a head of your time, isn't fun. :P

Seriously though regarding years and dates and time passing and the lot...

I want to see months, or seasons, or something similar (unless I missed it somewhere on the wiki). So far I have been putting "First half, last half etc" on my wiki. Could we not break the years up more?

Here is me just making up stuff. (Other then Exodus and Vulpes, of course. Just thought I would throw something down as an examples))

January / July - "Tavross"
February / August - "Drin"
March / September - Ridganr""
April / October - "Exodus"
May / November - "Vulpes"
June / December - "Pakria"

"The 5th day of Exodus, 31 BBY, the skies turned red and mountains crumbled to the sea. Damn I hate this time of year."

Then there is always, how many days are in each so called "month".

Maybe some fictions, in Star Wars books have explained this. But since we are doing the 2:1 ratio, our own system anyways, why not make our own.


23-11-2009 13:54:59

Ohh, ohh, ohh... I love the idea of introducing months. The lack of them has always bugged me too, particularly as I'm never sure whether to use a 12 month calendar or a 10. I think the more recent EU has thankfully swapped to a standard 12 month unlike the old 10. But that's only Galactic Standard anyway.

There's no uniform month names on the Standard Galactic Calendar. The best that was ever given were the local month names from the Tapani Sector calendar as an example, which are rather lame:

Month 1: Elona
Month 2: Kelona
Holiday 1: Tapani Day
Month 3: Selona
Festival Week 1: Expansion Week
Month 4: Telona
Month 5: Nelona
Holiday 2: Productivity Day
Month 6: Helona
Festival Week 2: Shelova Week
Month 7: Melona
Month 8: Yelona
Holiday 3: Harvest Day
Month 9: Relona
Month 10: Welona
Festival Week 3: Winter Fete

All that comes from the old West End Games sourcebooks, which despite being some of the best ever released are for our purposes... far too complicated. I really love your idea of naming the month "Exodus" and things like that... we could say it's the local Anteian Calendar or something.

I also really like your suggestion of a 6-month calendar year as it'd just mean instead of squashing 2 fictional months into each RL month, we'd just cycle the same 6 twice a RL year. Would keep things nice and simple.


23-11-2009 16:38:34

2:1. We're not going to run out of years anytime soon.


23-11-2009 16:59:38

Agreed with 2:1, it's worked for the Brotherhood in the past so why do anything different? It makes perfect sense to me as long.

The months seem like a solid idea too, and maybe a few minor holidays (nothing like Exodus or Day of the Fox where we hand out the SoLs) but something like a day of remembrance for the Liberation of Antei, just to add some fictional background to all the DB went through to regain our capital.

Phoenix dTana

23-11-2009 17:18:14

ffs........ Can we write any bigger frigging posts.

2:1 or even 3:1 i'm for.


23-11-2009 19:10:25

I concur on the months idea...that will give us a way to centralize on where exactly we are as we move forward; instead of advancing to the next year and people using events from anywhere in that year at any time.

I like.

Selika Roh

23-11-2009 21:17:13

I think given the way fiction works in the DB, 2:1 is preferable. I know I'm in a Star Trek simming group that currently goes 1:1 that's even looking to go 1:2 instead but there are reasons there that don't apply in the DB. In a simming group, you're basically constantly posting Run On style stories that can take months to get through a few days of "in universe" time. The DB isn't driven forward by the pace of run on posts though, so 2:1 is fine and dandy.

I'm not really in favor of the 3:1 ratio though because 2:1 still leaves enough real life time for your character to progress. People earlier in the thread talk about the 1:1 ratio leading to sorta odd stuff with people and their positions, like a CON reigning for a few months instead of years in game. However, by going to a 3:1 ratio you start compressing the time your character takes to grow and advance too much. I know that my current character pesona joined the DB "IC" wise around the time of the GJW's ending. In character he's now been a member of the DB for a year, but I still want to be able to play him as a bit of a novice at the whole force thing. If we were on a 3:1 timescale, he'd probably have been in the DB IC for two years by this point, which doesn't give you a lot of time to actually write a good progression of your character IC wise (because writing stuff takes time). The 2:1 is a good middle ground between the slow and steady pace of 1:1 and the more frantic character development of 3:1.

On a purely selfish basis though, I'm also in favor of the current 2:1 progression because of the Wiki. I created a system that automatically advances the in character date of the DB on the wiki just about the same time as Exodus Day and the Day of the Fox (it does it by month which is close enough, and is currently set up to run correctly through 2019). It was enough of a pain to figure out how to tweak the expressions for the 2:1 ratio. I don't want to try to figure out how to do it for 3:1. =P


24-11-2009 04:57:28

Quick thought that occurred to me overnight:

While the main events of Fate of the Jedi (43 ABY) are (as things stand on Book 3 of 9) not looking like a conflict that the DB will need to worry about being directly affected by anyway, one significant development that does occur is Luke encountering the Lost Tribe of Sith from Kesh and the Jedi being all "OMG! THERE ARE STILL SITH!"

Presumably by Book 9 they will have hunted down said Lost Tribe and exterminate it as soon as literally possible. But it will still mean that the Jedi will from that point on be aware that there may still be lost Sith cults out there... so DB agents getting stumbled across won't need to be quite such a taboo from 2015 onwards, which actually means Fate of the Jedi might still affect us, just in a more indirect sense of no longer needing to necessarily be quite so secretive.

Obviously the Jedi still won't be able to find out where Antei is else they'd do what they're no doubt going to do to the Lost Tribe, but at least it'll be good once the Sith resurface... so we can look forward to Darth Caedus in 2014 for at least that reason. :P


26-11-2009 02:34:57

I like 2:1. I don't think we need to change it. If months are created it should not be on the main DB page. The months should only be used in Brotherhood and Clan story lines, as not to create too rigid of an environment.


05-12-2009 15:40:17

2:1 = best. Honestly from everyone else's posts I would say that they would completely agree that 2:1 should be kept.

EDIT: When I saw the title I thought you were going to have a big discussion on time travel or something like that lol.


09-09-2010 08:27:47

Here's a suggestion: screw all the timelines and send us back to the good old days during the galactic civil war so we don't have to continue putting up with the EU crap like NJO or the dark hive [Expletive Deleted] :P LOL

Muz Ashen

09-09-2010 14:28:06

the galactic civil war? When there was supposedly only a handful of force sensitives? Blergh. We don't need to have Vader hunting us down, and we're too big to be Palpatine's secret.