Poll Regarding Society Of Envoys

Since we're unable to make comments on the news post, I felt it would be beneficial to open up some form of communication on the topic of the Society of Envoys. Now, as I'm starting off, I wanted to discuss the poll options themselves. The keep, fix, or delete options are far too simple for something as important as the instruction of new members. From what I've seen and experienced during my time in various Clan leader positions from Envoy to Consul, is that Envoys do good work. The idea behind envoys - having members of each Clan dedicated to helping new members of said Clan is something the DB needs. Even for something as simple as an introductory email and offer for further assistance. It goes a long way and I see no reason for envoys to be abolished.

That being said, the Society of Envoys, and the need for a leader is far more expendable. Each Clan has a very distinct personality, and Envoys should be governed by their Clan Summit - not some society leader who will decide when good work is being done and qualify that based on other Clan's luck (and it really does come down to luck) at retaining new members. As Consul I was annoyed that changes to my envoys had to go through some third party, when the envoy system is so Clan-based. Our experienced members are appointed to teach our new members. Where does a third party come into that equation? I mean, I assume the Clan Summit knows what they're doing - they were appointed by the GM/DGM afterall. There should be less second-guessing on the lower end of the leadership ladder.

So, should the Society of Envoys be dissolved? Yes. We're currently in between leaders and there is no real need for this society. Should envoys themselves be dissolved or stripped of their title/power? No. They're an important part of the Brotherhood, and can continue being an important part under the discretion of their Clan leaders, who have a vested interest in their success. After all, better envoys = more active members = more participation for the Clan. Since Consuls and Proconsuls monitor their members for activity and reward them as they deem fit, envoys would easily fall under that category as well.

Feel free to voice your opinions and comments.

I disagree.

The job of the Envoy is important, yes. Should there be another position/step in the House Summit ladder for that job? No.

I've always held the firm belief that the duties of the Envoy (as they're done and defined now) unquestionably fall within the duties of the House Aedile. No argument about it. No need for Assistant To Envoy or other crap like that. The Aediles should be the ones shouldered with the responsibility, especially if they're planning to become the Quaestors (or more) within their Clans.

Addendum: Ultimately, having any Envoy position should be within the Clan Summit's discretion. If there are currently Envoys that are doing a really good job then there's no reason to get rid of them. But it should be the Clan Summit's responsibility to manage them.

I'll agree with both of you, as I have for a good time now, the Society should be gone. The job of the Envoys themselves is good and needed and should simply be left to the Clans to run in my opinion. Looking at the rosters shows that at least four out of the six Clans right now have Envoys setup as Roll Masters, why not just leave them as that?

Tarax brings up another point that's good, why not give the job to the positions that should already be on top of greeting new members and helping them along. Whether the role should be given directly to the Aediles, Quaestors, or another House spot in the form of Roll Master should be up to the Clans, not a third party. Simple as that.

I think it should be as decentralized as possible. Let each clan decide whether or not to keep the envoys and decide how many there are and what they do. More effort needs to be directed to keeping new members. I know I was intimidated by all the information available, and someone should be available who has time to answer what might to older members seem like stupid questions. Not everyone is a self-starter, and some newbies might need some hand-holding.

I agree. Some older members can be particularly biting when it comes to what they see as ignorance, while those who actually want to take on the job, such as my former Envoy/current master, did a good job explaining things to me and helping me when I needed it. I think clans should be in charge of it due to the nature of the help needed, but I do think that the Society of Envoys helps immensely.

From the perspective of a Grand Master there are two reasons why the Envoys/New Member programs in the clans need DC-level oversight:

1. Members who are not contacted within 24 hours and led by the hand into this club are lost.

2. Accountability.

The *primary* responsibility of the KCB is to ensure that the clans and the envoys within are doing their jobs. When we made the last major revision to the KCB role when I was grand master, the job basically changed to an analyst and administrator that received copies of welcome letters and ensured members got what they needed.

No offense to the Clan Summits, but I don't trust them to police themselves in this regard. New members are too important and clan leadership is too stretched and thin to keep tabs on the house leaders and regular members, let alone the constant verification the new member programs need.

I know for a fact that people fall through the cracks. I have occasionally added new members to the site to test the systems and only a few times have I actually received welcome letters. Even more telling these days is that some of the Envoys do a reply-to-all on the welcome letters and I get a copy...when it's been too long without one, I know people have been skipped.

So, this is the issue: The Envoys need to be watched to assure that we have members being contacted. We can't trust the clans to police themselves. That leaves the DC to do it.

Do we need an entire society? No. The KSOE can go by the wayside and a P:HM can do the dirty work, but the work needs to be done.

Eventually, we will be moving back toward a more automated system simply due to the fact that we have so many members fall through the cracks. Not to mention the fact that people who join these days want to play a game -- they don't want to read 20 emails explaining a complicated club that's stuck in 2003. Eventually, the site will play puppet master over new members rather than envoys.

But until then, there needs to be a system where leaders can be held accountable for losing members.

Jac

Ah, I hadn't thought of the accountability aspect. Yeah, we definitely need it, then.

fantastic post Jac!

I've always had strong opinions on this. I have always thought that having an Envoy on top of QUA and AED is overkill. If you're going to delegate any work to do with the looking after of members, then it should be the BTL's job. It's the best way of giving the new kids leadership experience.


However, I've always thought that what would be useful is if each clan had an envoy to be used as a kind of a union leader. They would not be a leader, they would simply be a member who is outside of the command structure who could take any complaints that members don't feel comfortable about taking to their leaders.

They could be included on the important introduction and reminder emails and make sure the command is doing it properly. If there is any kind of bullying or foul play, then rather than just have one complaint up against the odds, there could be a collection of evidence built up over time and the envoy's word.

Obviously, this sounds like spying and no leader is going to want that. Especially if it's someone they don't like. Such a person should be an experienced member in good standing having served at that Clan/House for a while. This person whould not be able to publicly support/fight anything ...it should be direct to the DC. It's a nice little system to keep everyone honest.

I've believed something very similar to Shadow and Duga for a few years now. The job of the Envoy (eg. welcoming new members, answering basic questions and sending more complicated ones to the QUA/AED, helping new members work towards promotions, etc). is most definitely needed in the DB - if that job is done by a dedicated person or as part of the Quaestor/Aedile's job doesn't matter much to me. New members don't educate themselves; there's too much information for them to digest on their own. Eventually we cut them loose and they have to fend, more or less, for themselves but there needs to be some system in place that guides them through the beginning stages and gives them the basics of the club so that they can get to the point of being able to function on their own .

That doesn't mean, however, that we need another level of bureaucracy to manage the people who fill that role. I understand the need to make sure that the Envoys actually do their job, but managing the leaders under him is part of the job description of the Quaestor of the house and, to a lesser extent, the Consul of that clan. Making sure that all of the houses in a clan are running efficiently is a major priority, but there isn't a DC level Quaestor-supervisor position - it's handled by the Consul and Proconsul of that clan. If the DC isn't confidant in the ability of the house and clan summits to look at themselves critically and determine if they're working for the best interest of their members then the Grand Master needs to step up and force changes, either in the way that the summits work or in the people who hold those positions. I've held the Quaestorship of House Archanis for an entire year now and this is the first that I've heard about summits not being able to review themselves honestly. If this is as big of a problem as it's being made out to be then I, and the other summit members, should have been told about this a long time ago.

If the problem is Envoys not doing their job then the answer is to remove the ones who aren't and hold the house/clan summits responsible for appointing people who do the work, not have another person with the job of poking the Envoys with pointy sticks - especially after the changes that we saw based on the Amalgamation documents.

That doesn't mean, however, that we need another level of bureaucracy to manage the people who fill that role.  I understand the need to make sure that the Envoys actually do their job, but managing the leaders under him is part of the job description of the Quaestor of the house and, to a lesser extent, the Consul of that clan.  Making sure that all of the houses in a clan are running efficiently is a major priority, but there isn't a DC level Quaestor-supervisor position - it's handled by the Consul and Proconsul of that clan.  If the DC isn't confidant in the ability of the house and clan summits to look at themselves critically and determine if they're working for the best interest of their members then the Grand Master needs to step up and force changes, either in the way that the summits work or in the people who hold those positions.  I've held the Quaestorship of House Archanis for an entire year now and this is the first that I've heard about summits not being able to review themselves honestly.  If this is as big of a problem as it's being made out to be then I, and the other summit members, should have been told about this a long time ago.


Well, don't misunderstand me: I don't care who manages them or how the envoys do the job. The management can and should come from the clan. Hell, I even encourage the clan leaders to do the envoy job, but having been an envoy, I understand that it can be hard to do both and do a good job at both.

So my reasoning for wanting a DC involvement in the envoys is not a management one. The KCB does not need to be there to hold the hands of either the Consuls or the Quaestors.

When it comes to accountability, however, historically over the last twelve years new member programs tended to fall by the wayside in a majority of clans. Envoys burn out and are slow to be replaced, clan leaders take the responsibility upon themselves and never actually do it, etc etc. From the DC's perspective, that's the only area I don't trust the clans to look at themselves critically on. It is too important of an issue to either rely on someone's statement ("uh, yeah, I emailed all the new members and they never respondeds!") or rely on someone else to do the policing. The Grand Master and the DC need hard data -- solid proof in numbers that the emails are going out, which means we need someone getting copies and recording what goes where.

There is not a DC-level QUA supervisor position, no, but that's also because when Consuls actually do their job, the QUAs are the first people they manage. It's less of a worry. It's also less of an issue because typically houses can survive a bad Quaestor -- some members might just need to be prodded back to activity, but once they are in they are in.

No new member can ever survive a bad envoy.

And back to the point on QUA supervision, there is a lot of feedback on the Consul level from the Grand Master regarding this. Recently, Sarin had an audit done to see what house leaders were doing reports and he gave a few rulings down to the clans to straighten up their reporting standards. Sarin gives out his evaluations to the Clan leaders periodically and within that is an analysis of their subordinates. Also, Sarin requires internal reporting from the Consuls in which there is a discussion about how the house leaders are doing. So there's a good amount of oversight there -- just it isn't the type of data-driven oversight that requires someone compiling an excel sheet of who sent what to who.

New members are our lifeblood -- if we aren't cultivating them this club will die. That there is worth the extra resource of one person compiling statistics and worth the hassle of that person requiring a CC on emails.

Jac

Fair enough, that's clearer then the first post. I can see the need for someone to keep data on welcome emails that are sent out and new member progress, but I'm not convinced that there needs to be a position of that level dedicated to it. This seems like something that could be handled by the Head Master or delegated to a member of his staff as another function of the office. It may seem like splitting hairs, but I see a significant difference between having a full time position with a special title who's only job is to track new member progress and collect welcome emails from envoys and adding that work to the what the P:HM already does - or even making a M:HM position for it if the P:HM is too busy to do it.

We could make this even easier on the person who compiles the data though. If each Envoy sends in a report every month including every INI who is assigned to the house, if they were sent a welcome email, how far they'd progressed in that month and comments about the amount of communication that the Envoy had with the member then whoever ends up compiling the data will have a much easier time, especially if the Envoys do their reports in excel. There could even be a second part of the report for the Envoy to track/report on any member who was under JH but had joined in a previous month, it would just need to include how far they'd progressed that month and communication notes.

Having the Envoys compile reports on their own houses would drastically cut the amount of work that the person collecting all this data needed to do: they could take the data that the Envoys send in, run a few basic statistics on the full report and send the results out to the HM, GM/DGM. CONs and whoever else should see the numbers.

I can see the value of someone doing this work, but it doesn't seem like it should qualify for a full time position with no other responsibilities.

I agree on the position. KCB isn't a full-time position atm. It's more along the lines of a Tribune spot, but this isn't something that the P:HM couldn't handle. Getting rid of the "Society" label and dropping KCB can get rid of a good amount of stigma that comes with it.

I don't trust envoys for one minute to be honest in their own evaluations. It's too easy to slack off for 3 days, miss a member and lie about it if no one is CC:ed on the emails. The envoys are good people, but they are also human -- they aren't going to so easily admit their mistakes.

We have a program on the site that evaluates member progress in clans already. The big thing we need is something that ensures that progress starts. There are four alternatives that I can think of:

1. P:HM or equivalent manually marks down when new members are contacted.
2. Envoys send their emails to new members through a form on the website. the site tracks who does what.
3. All new member duties are conducted through a single gmail address for each clan, allowing someone to go in and do checks at a later date, and allowing for easy transferring between leaders.
4. Automation on the site that gradually leads new members into the game much like a game would over the course of several weeks. Take it out of human hands.

Jac

If we want to get something started right away then option #1 seems like the best way to do that. We can't rely on that person to keep track of who sends welcome emails to which APP for a long time though, that's asking one person to watch too many emails and I have a feeling that people will still fall through the cracks if we keep that up long term. For the long term, #4 sounds like the best option. A single gmail account would be harder to track then doing it through the site, and I'd rather not completely automate the new member process. I think it's important for new members to talk to a real person very soon after they join. Plus, automation won't be able to take into account the fact that every person is different and they need different kinda of advice so it'd end up being kicked out to human hands anyway.

I am in favor of keeping the Society of Envoy, but it definitely needs improvement. I like that the Envoy is used to help greet new members but it also can show the leadership potential in a member. Most of the leadership in Clan Naga Sadow started as Envoys and then moved up to more leadership positions. I do agree ,however, that the Envoy should be directed by the Clans. Currently the House Aediles in Clan Naga Sadow serves as the House Envoy as well. I think this has worked better than having separate Envoys.

That's the point. If the AED is doing it, then why bother with an envoy at all?

I've always had strong opinions on this. I have always thought that having an Envoy on top of QUA and AED is overkill. If you're going to delegate any work to do with the looking after of members, then it should be the BTL's job. It's the best way of giving the new kids leadership experience.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea of the BTL handling the new members (and not just because I don't want to do it ). Different BTs do different things, and some of them don't necessarily have new members.

Yeah, I agree that BTLs aren't qualified enough to deal with new members. Don't give the newbie the toughest job (which is what the envoy system tends to do)! But if the QUA/AED deal with the new members then they could hand out some of their other responsibilities to BTLs like dealing with more experienced members, running competitions, and generally keeping them members occupied.

That's the point. If the AED is doing it, then why bother with an envoy at all?



What he said. (Which also happens to be what I said.)

Referring to Jac's point of accountability... I disagree on the need of a DC-level position for it. If the Clan Summits (meaning their respective House Summits included) cannot be responsible enough and held accountable enough to train their new members...that's their failing. It's up to them to whip themselves into shape. If the House Summit cannot manage and help a new member, then they fail at their job. Plain and simple.

Simply put, the Clans have to face up to their responsibilities and have some (if not all) accountability with their members.

It's all well and good saying that if the Clan sucks at dealing with new members, the clan fails, people point and laugh, etc, etc ...but it's not really the new members fault they got put into such a crappy clan (it's Krav's for putting them there )

I think there should be something set up just to make sure the clan leaders are doing their job well, fairly and correctly. It shouldn't be a position and it should hold no power, but it should keep the DC informed.

I don't trust envoys for one minute to be honest in their own evaluations.


Screw you, Jac! I consider myself to be very honest when it comes to self-evalutions.

But yeah, what people seem to forget that the Envoy is the foundation for basic leadership in this club, I believe. A first time Envoy is given the responisbility of greetings new members and help them getting started. I would have never made it where I am today without being an Envoy.

The SoE is more then just ensuring new members have a touch base when they join, its the starting point for most of the leaders in this club. Yeah, I wont disagree with anyone if they say a BTL position is the same, but most Envoys (the successful ones atleast) will more on to bigger and better things.

I wont disagree that the general selection and appointment of Envoys is done on the Summit level, with the changes made the KCB position is more of a overview position, to make sure new members and the development of said members are being looked after. The position can easiler go to the P:HM or to the HM himself.

Let me also give you another point of view, APP Fred has just joined Clan X, he gets the auto-mail welcoming him to Clan X saying he has been placed in House Y. It has it down as a representive of the Grand Master to introduce them into the club, and then lists the other people starting with the Clan Envoy, AED, QUA, blah blah... I dont know about you, but a welcoming commitee, a member of House Y who isnt in a leadership position (as Envoys dont always have to be RM) to make them feel at home... a regular member...

So yeah, I will be the first to admit that the SoE isnt perfect, but generally neither are Clans, Houses and Battleteams. Improvement can help resolve, maybe not to perfect the system (as nothing is perfect) but atleast improve on things, as I have worked to damn hard to see a useful function of this club to simply be disolved when the SoE can still provide a useful function for not only ensuring new members are looked after when they join, but the next generation of leaders in this club are also trained as well.

Stop looking of the bloody negitive side, and start thinking of positive ideas that can help new and existing members. Everyone, including you Jac, have put some good ideas down how to improve things... lets start looking at ways of doing this in a more proactive enviroment.

OK, I will shut up now...

Even though I dont fully agree to Jac, he does have a point. But then again, I could easily host a competition and forget to award crescents. Does that make me untrustworthy? No, because like you also said Jac, we're human.

I can see what you're trying to say Jac, but I think it would be wise to choose your words a bit more carefully next time,
as I see you ticked more than one people off with that...

~Ylith

Learn to take criticism, guys. No need to go all emo over it.

He wasn't accusing anyone specifically, just making a general statement.

Seriously, grow a pair.

A reminder: This is a discussion, not an argument.

Jac brings up a good point. New members aren't only important on the Clan-level. They're far more important to the overall existence of the Brotherhood. Without new members to replenish our ranks the DB will die as surely as the EH and EHDB seem to be dying.

However, my point against the Society itself still stands. I've seen Society leaders take it upon themselves to award envoys for their duties, taking that power away from the members Summit leaders. And, in all honesty, the awarding his highly questionable and provided in the form of an impossible competition. You can't run a competition that's based on luck - that makes no sense. And snubbing some members because they had fewer joins to their Clan than others is just insulting.

If the Envoys need this DC oversight, I do agree it should rest in the HM's office... Praetor would make sense. But it should just be that - oversight. Not control. Not a power to reward members when it's their Clan that should be doing the rewarding.

I think the idea of Envoys are very important.

How about we go with one "Envoy" per Clan (to supervise, compile reports, make sure newblood's being welcomed into the House/Clan, keep track of the Master-Student Program, etc.) and shift the current "House Envoy" (a.k.a. "Companion-class Envoy") duties to the Aedile?

I do not know about other Clans and Houses, but House Acclivis Draco's Aedile is currently doing all of the welcoming/following-up/tracking/buttering when it comes to new members, and this has proven to be successful.

After all, better envoys = more active members = more participation for the Clan.
more participation for the Clan = a more active, thriving, Brotherhood

I dont know about you, but a welcoming commitee, a member of House Y who isnt in a leadership position (as Envoys dont always have to be RM) to make them feel at home... a regular member...
I don't know what's going on in CNS, but if a new member figures out how to get on IRC, the people in #scholae welcome the new member. In the past, CSP even had regular emails going out about new members joining, but these emails became so repetitive, and ubiquitous, (and, frankly, sometimes annoying) that the idea was eventually abandoned.

In addition, I have a feeling that new members should get in touch with their House/Clan Summit right away.

How about we go with one "Envoy" per Clan (to supervise, compile reports, make sure newblood's being welcomed into the House/Clan, keep track of the Master-Student Program, etc.) and shift the current "House Envoy" (a.k.a. "Companion-class Envoy") duties to the Aedile?


Let me just say as a Clan Envoy that this Idea, while it has merit dosent always work. Sure it does ocassionaly work but the AED has an important job in his own right and slapping them with ENV duties would be a little harsh.

Dont get me wrong, AEDs and QUA's should be welcoming new members but when you recive dozens of e-mails already seeing a 'doss activated' e-mail just seems to slip under the radar.

The envoys need to make changes, even if it's just personell. Getting people in there who are motivated and are going to send those e-mails and reply to them. I think that's half the problem without the right people you can make all the changes you want but nothing will actually change.

As far as Jac saying he dosent trust the envoys to make honest evaluations. Who would honestly report that they are doing a bad job? IT was hard for me in December to put "Unacceptable" in my report to the summit but I did and changes have been made in the right direction.

We have an opportunity here to make things right and get the Envoys back on track. We definately should not get rid of the Envoys but it's going to take alot of work to salvage them from where they are now.

The Envoys need to be honest with themselves and ask for help,
The Knight Commander needs to be able to respond and give help,
The Envoys need to be motivated and if they arent, have the balls to step down,
The Envoys need to do their jobs and contact; offer help; and indoctrinate,
The Clans need to realize the importance of the Envoys, (Crazy that they dont I know but some people undervalue the importance of the Envoys)

Leadership needs to come from the top-down not the, bottom-up.

Referring to Jac's point of accountability... I disagree on the need of a DC-level position for it. If the Clan Summits (meaning their respective House Summits included) cannot be responsible enough and held accountable enough to train their new members...that's their failing. It's up to them to whip themselves into shape. If the House Summit cannot manage and help a new member, then they fail at their job. Plain and simple.


I strongly disagree on the fact that losing a member is the failing of just the clan and is not a DC concern. The DB/DC hands out new members to the clans and any loss of that resource is a blow to the entire brotherhood. If one clan messes up new member retention, we lose 1/6th of every person that signs up. If we have, as is more commonly the case, half of the clans absolutely sucking at new member retention, two clans doing ok and one clan doing good enough, then we are still losing lots of members.

At some point in time, our thought processes need to move beyond the survival of one clan vs the other and letting those that suck fail: we are a club together and new member retention is the most binding issue of them all.


Even though I dont fully agree to Jac, he does have a point. But then again, I could easily host a competition and forget to award crescents. Does that make me untrustworthy? No, because like you also said Jac, we're human.

I can see what you're trying to say Jac, but I think it would be wise to choose your words a bit more carefully next time,
as I see you ticked more than one people off with that...
~Ylith


I'm sorry that you didn't like what I had to say, but don't cry about it. I did choose my words carefully. I told the truth as I thought it and as my experience of four years in evaluating clan new member programs has given me the ability to evaluate. I'm not sure I care if people get ticked off at the truth. Try being Grand Master for a month -- then you'll learn what criticism is.

You may not like what I have to say on this, but you can't deny human nature. There is no one in this club that will readily admit with blunt honest truth every mistake they make in any leadership position. It just doesn't happen because it is not a human trait. And if you tell me you do otherwise, I will call you a liar. Sorry. It's just the truth of things.

Ashura: you sure as hell are probably very honest in your self evaluations, but I don't believe that you, or anyone else for that matter, will honestly admit to their leaders when they screw up completely and we lose members because of it. Some of the truth may come through in your evaluations, hell maybe more than the average person would ever admit, but with the envoy position it is way too easy to let it fall by the wayside without anyone noticing. You might be a good envoy, but there are many more sub-par ones. One bad run of days as a member and you can lose 2-3 recruits. That's not an easy window for failure to get around.

The most honest thing that we can say is that we are humans and we make mistakes. Some members will be lost due to envoys not doing their job, and that's ok at times. It is not ok all of the time. There needs to be accountability.

New member retention is not something where anecdotal evidence of one envoy doing well or one person saying they would be honest is good enough for running a club off of. The statistics are there in clear type that we are not retaining members like we should. The system is not working at even 25% efficiency: it is failing. That less than 1% of all recruits make it to DJK is evidence enough for the bosses in the DC to demand some oversight. Any boss in the real world would say the same.

Ylith: Your comparison to awarding a medal is off base. If you say you awarded a medal, I can go look at the person's dossier to see if it's there. There's hard data. If I ask you if you emailed someone, there's no way to know if you are telling the truth unless you CC someone else. Many envoys don't cc: anyone. How can there possibly be accountability there when if someone tells the truth, they get fired.

There can't be. Accountability needs to come from somewhere else, hence the need for a P:HM to do it.

Ashura: This isn't an issue that it is easy to look on the bright side of. I've seen the statistics and this club has been dropping new recruits like flies. Since Episode III we have had a steady decline in site hits and signups. Until the TV show comes out, we are reliant on this program to work, and making it work first requires pointing out its flaws.

I am just curious what the expected retention numbers should be. I honestly think it is fair to say that we will lose 7 out 10 new recruits just with the attitude of the modern generation. I think it is bad to see people that have been in the club for a few months leave and will admit that probably was our fault. But to many times someone will sign up, and not know what they are getting into and leave a week later. Most people just good Dark Jedi, and then they show up here and get freaked out by the whole aspect of RP, and writing.

It is bad to see that the DJB is struggling, but we honestly need to show what we are selling. We offer Gaming, ok thats cool. But now you make all these rules that alot of gamers do not want to follow so you can count them out, as they believe any tactics, no matter how bad they are, winning is all that matters. Not you have writing, unless you happen to be a master of the written English word, you can kiss that one good bye also. Now you have RP, that is slowely being lost world wide. It has never beent he cool thing to do, even for Star Wars fans.

I stuck it out, but can not think why. My biggest issue is how some people treat each other. Usually people of the same house get along decently, but I can not say there are more then 5-6 people outside of CSP that I like because it is hard to enter a decent conversation with them without egos getting in the way and the flame wars begin. I see it all the time on the MB where a lower ranking member will post an idea, or a opinion and then he gets flamed by 10 individuals before 1 person comes along and posts a counter point respecfully. Jac I like you, but you are one of the guilty people who talks a lot fo trash about alot of people. Not everyone knows that your Taldrya times is all about fun, and they take all that personally.

I stuck it out, but can not think why. My biggest issue is how some people treat each other. Usually people of the same house get along decently, but I can not say there are more then 5-6 people outside of CSP that I like because it is hard to enter a decent conversation with them without egos getting in the way and the flame wars begin. I see it all the time on the MB where a lower ranking member will post an idea, or a opinion and then he gets flamed by 10 individuals before 1 person comes along and posts a counter point respecfully. Jac I like you, but you are one of the guilty people who talks a lot fo trash about alot of people. Not everyone knows that your Taldrya times is all about fun, and they take all that personally.

I completely agree with that. Many older members seem to think that they have some right to tell a younger member that they're an idiot just because they don't happen to agree with everything the older member says. Also, the rather insensitive comparison between winning the Special Olympics and winning an online argument seem to come to mind with that. An extreme amount of people don't demonstrate any amount of reason or regard for the opinions of other people. If there were someone outside of the Clan who were making sure that the younger members had someone to talk to about ideas or just helping them along, that would be great. Without oversight from outside of the Clan, the often-opinionated Clan elders would be the ones who the new members had to bring new ideas to.

Let's not change the subject. If you'd like to talk about the ills of the DB and how the Taldryan Times is the most evitest evil in all of evilville, then start another thread. I'll be glad to discuss with you the subjects of 1) sarcasm, 2) satire, 3) trash talking, 4) my reputation, and 5) me (whom you know little about, apparently).


Back to your good question:

I do not think that it is outside the lines to ask for 5% of our recruits to reach Dark Jedi Knight. We barely hit 1% right now, which is ridiculous.

People sign up because something sparked their interest. We are not capitalizing on that.

Jac

The point I was trying to make was that if you leave it up to the more experienced members of the clan to make the new members feel warm and welcome, you would have a hard time keeping new members. Keeping the Society of Envoys secular in terms of clan is a great idea. I may not know what to do in order to keep new members (I certainly didn't have a hard time wanting to stay in, so I really don't know), but I do agree with that.

Sorry Dralin: I should have been more clear in that I was replying to Yeld.

Not all experienced members are bad like that. In fact, I'd say almost all of the ones that sign up to be envoys are the opposite of the type who would put down members on the MB.

Envoys do a great job when the job is done. I can't complain about the quality of the work -- just the frequency and the effectiveness.

Ashura: you sure as hell are probably very honest in your self evaluations, but I don't believe that you, or anyone else for that matter, will honestly admit to their leaders when they screw up completely and we lose members because of it. Some of the truth may come through in your evaluations, hell maybe more than the average person would ever admit, but with the envoy position it is way too easy to let it fall by the wayside without anyone noticing. You might be a good envoy, but there are many more sub-par ones. One bad run of days as a member and you can lose 2-3 recruits. That's not an easy window for failure to get around.

Not disagreeing with you Jac, "you can please some of the people some of the time, but you cant please all the people all of the time." Alot of new members join the club expecting to be a Dark Jedi Master in, say, a couple of months. When they find out it would take them ten years, looking at some of the current DJM we have, then they are going to loss interest. The best thing we can do is focus their energies on becoming Dark Jedi Knight, which can be achieved in atleast 4-6 months, depending on how active that person is. I can tell you striaght away, I have no desire of ever becoming GM, as I know from my current position I am in right now just how much bloody hard work it would have to be. I'm happy being a QUA.

The SoE is part of the SA, so I am not disagreeing with the position of KCB going to Aabs or the P:HM.

And as far as I am concerned, being Envoy is not for everyone. To excell at being an Envoy you need the right kind of energy to get it done. That was the first thing I look for in any Envoy, and I can I am pretty damn well proud of those who have made it as successful Envoys in CNS.

Ashura: This isn't an issue that it is easy to look on the bright side of. I've seen the statistics and this club has been dropping new recruits like flies. Since Episode III we have had a steady decline in site hits and signups. Until the TV show comes out, we are reliant on this program to work, and making it work first requires pointing out its flaws.

Dont forget the Force Unleashed computer game that, should, come out this year. That is going to be another interest for all Star Wars fans. Kicking someones arse with the Force, which the gane is about, is probably also bring alot of people toward this club...

But, yeah, im not disgreeing with you that the flaws need to be ironed out. We are at an all time low at the moment... what proactive suggestions and ideas can we bring, that has not already been mentioned. I'm not completely against the idea of a Envoy database type reply letter, as the right infomation makes all the difference when contacting new members.

I don't know what's going on in CNS, but if a new member figures out how to get on IRC, the people in #scholae welcome the new member. In the past, CSP even had regular emails going out about new members joining, but these emails became so repetitive, and ubiquitous, (and, frankly, sometimes annoying) that the idea was eventually abandoned.

Yeah, our main goal is to get the lines of commication open, which IRC and message boards are important. The way things are aimed now in CNS is to ensure the the House Summit have an active part in ensuring new members are greeted, informed and looked after. The current system we got gives the Envoy's a more proactive involvment to get members started. But at the end of the day, it is also up to that member to want to proactive and made it in this club. A lot of new member seem to forget the the rank of DJK isnt that powerful, its merely the right of earning your lightsaber and becoming a Equite-in-training. Its why I personally never liked the idea of the Training Sabers.

Let's not change the subject. If you'd like to talk about the ills of the DB and how the Taldryan Times is the most evitest evil in all of evilville, then start another thread. I'll be glad to discuss with you the subjects of 1) sarcasm, 2) satire, 3) trash talking, 4) my reputation, and 5) me (whom you know little about, apparently).
Back to your good question:

I do not think that it is outside the lines to ask for 5% of our recruits to reach Dark Jedi Knight. We barely hit 1% right now, which is ridiculous.

People sign up because something sparked their interest. We are not capitalizing on that.

Jac



Jac sorry that was not put out right. I love Taldrya times, get a good laugh every time. What I was pointing out that there is more then the KSoE that keep, or drive members away. We need to look bigger to find every problem. I was trying to point out that this is supposed to be a friendly atmosphere ad yeah friendly trash talk is usually welcome. But what I see all over the forums for lack of better wording is Elders, Equiets, and alot of time DJKs flame the hell out of people for no better reason then to be a [Expletive Deleted]. How does that help our retention numbers. NOV Joe Schmoe does not always know that ideas have been tried before and failed, so if he brought up an old idea he does not deserve to be told he is the stupidest mother ***** around and to go pound sand. Some member may read articles that are meant out to be funny, and take them seriously. I know when I first joined I though the Taldrya times was a serious paper, then halfway through it I realized that it was just a comical thing. I have been reading it ever since.

I have had nothing but good experiences with the KSoE, and for the most part they are who kept me around. Yes there is still plenty of room for improvement. If you all want to take steps to watch the Envoys and make sure they do their job, we also need to take more steps to watch all members to make sure they do the right thing.

Personally, I don't see how a new member can actually expect to be a DJM in a month. When I signed up, I immediately saw how long people that haven't even made DJM have been on here, and I recognize the challenge for what it is. I do agree that the Society of Envoys isn't the only thing causing low retention rates, but I also think that if someone is leaving just because they're afraid of a little trash talk or because they just wanted to do something quick and easy, than better for the club I say.

I'll say this: I'm a believer in an overall Envoy program, though of what form or fashion is always up for debate. I know, you're probably all thinking "he's a former KCB; of course he likes the society." Truth be told, I do like it, but I recognize that there are ways to improve it. KCB can easily be morphed into a magistrate position (in fact, Lucien proposed such a move to Sarin awhile back), or fall under the P:HM.

I know this because I did it: I was P:HM, KCB, and PCON/CON at the same time. Of course, that's when I was in school, and had time to do all of that. There's no way I could do that now because of my work schedule.

I think one of the biggest problems with the Envoys is that many people see it as a short term position, both amongst the Envoys themselves and many house/clan summits. Don't get me wrong, being an Envoy is a great way to train for other positions, but if it is used solely for that, then the position and members suffer. Getting a new envoy every few months can seriously damage the flow of the program. Do I have a specific recommended time to serve as an Envoy? No, I don't.

We can get rid of the Assistant Envoy position right now, I believe. Or, at least, not appoint anymore. When I created that position (and I was the one who did), it was in the middle of the Episode III rush. Anyone involved with new members was overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of people coming in: we needed more help.

The Brotherhood is no different than real life organizations when it comes to new members. In every organization or job I've been involved with, I've always taken an interest in helping new people. Even now at work, I take time to attend and even conduct new hire orientation at my store, even though there is no requirement that management do this. Nobody asked me to do it: I just volunteered.

Anyway, I've noticed that any new members (using my real life work as an example) fall into one of the following categories (that I've named myself, having never read in depth any studies on human resources and such):

1. Faux interest- these are the people who interview well, seem interested during new hire orientation, but almost immediately fall off the tracks. For example, we hired this girl to be a cashier, and now she's about to lose her job because she's not interested in the job: she just didn't show up yesterday, got a bad score on a mystery shop, and today decided she was going to determine when to take her own break (never mind we were busy as hell since they're predicting snow here tomorrow).

2. Quick starts/sprinters- these people are interested, interview well, and start off doing an excellent job. They become the go to employees (members) whenever they're there. But, within a month or two, maybe three, their work ethic dies out and they either quit or move into type 3. Sprinters are people who alternate between types 2 and 3, but they often fall back into type 2 in a short time.

3. Maintainers- these folks are there to maintain the status quo. Maybe they were once excellent, or maybe not. They aren't great, but they don't suck, either. They are generally a reasonably competent person who will do their job, but they'll often do the bare minimum required. If they can get away with it, they'll even do less than the minimum, though the results show fairly quick. Many courtesy clerks (baggers) fall into this category, as well as most other clerks (those who aren't department heads or assistants).

4. Risers- these are the people that start off strong, or grow into it (they watch and learn and apply), and keep going strong for a significant amount of time. They may never make it to department head or assistant department head, for whatever reason (school, find a better job, move, etc.), but they're the type of people who could make good department heads, or go on to make good ones.

Overall, I'd say it is very easy to identify types 1 and 2. For types 3 and 4, especially in an online community such as ours, it is hard to identify. Even in real life, it can be hard.

How do the envoys fit into this? They, along with summit members, give types 1 and 2, a fair chance. With dedicated attention, we at least know the offer has been made. Envoys can help get people at least into type 3 and they can help guide the type 4 folks.

I think I've rambled enough here. As I said, this all based on my observations, but it worked the same in Boy Scouts, Model UN, being an RA, and at work. And, of course, it is the same thing here in the DB.

As everyone does make good points, the fact remains on accountablility.

I agree that the envoys should be a clan based item, this is true. As a new member you should recieve a email that is currently automated, this I would change. I would go in the route, as soon as you join, and complete the Test of Lore....you're assigned to a clan. At that time The clan summit should email you a personal email...not the database. Once your placed into a House, a email from a "House Envoy" should occur...now with that email, where we fail in the scheme and the loss of accountability comes into play here...is, that I guess its super hard to cc, the House summit and Clan summit?

The rolemaster could also be cc'd if that position is in use, why? so they can track this progress. Or whom ever is assigned that task, now you have a record for each member that is as simple as a word document. Now where certain people might take issue here is that as a envoy, you do find at times, that APP's may not email back, or just fall off. Why is that? Well most people join this club for many things...they might be intrested in everything we do...others join, and get overwhelmed at the DJB in general (now be honest, there is alot of things in this club that just make you cringe...)
So you might get a few hits and misses. And then we have a whole different set of enovys that well...just dont cut the mustard, or are at that point they just dont want to do this anymore, but just wont give in and find another to be replaced with. Thats where the Clan or House Summit is held respoinsible for this. Ever been given a medal for not doing anything in this club before? Thats whats its about for people that wont end a job the correct way. Rewards for little to no work This of course cant happen here...or does it?

So the society should be dissolved, make it clan based. Should there be a DC spot, that should oversee this? NO. Unless we want to open yet another position for this to backfire. If you want someone to oversee the whole Clan Based envoys...I think that should be either the P:HM or a M:HM(with his job title as overseer of the envoys, in which they communicate with the clan and house of the DB only..nothing more nothing less. And that communication should be with a day or so when a new member joins and is assigned a Clan/House)

I would hate to see the amount of people that sign up and never take that Test of Lore....

Now if a clan isnt keeping track or doing there part to watch the envoys, then the DC should intervein, or at the very worst case as Sarins says, "Your Fired" should occur.

The whole envoy, KSOE is in need of dire work...this is true. So debate this all you want, but till change happens this only continue's.

I agree that the envoys should be a clan based item, this is true. As a new member you should recieve a email that is currently automated, this I would change. I would go in the route, as soon as you join, and complete the Test of Lore....you're assigned to a clan. At that time The clan summit should email you a personal email...not the database. Once your placed into a House, a email from a "House Envoy" should occur...now with that email, where we fail in the scheme and the loss of accountability comes into play here...is, that I guess its super hard to cc, the House summit and Clan summit?



I don't see any problem with a database-generated email saying "hi APP NewGuy, you were assigned to House Archanis and these are your leaders". The problem, lately, has been that there's no communication between APP NewGuy and his summit. I've held a house summit position for the last 2 years (AED in Ektrosis and QUA in Archanis) and, as the people who have worked with me can tell you, I'm fairly relaxed about most things. The one thing that I demanded was that the ENV CC me on every email. Why did I do that? Simple: accountability. I wanted to know that when my Envoy told me that they were trying to get in contact with someone and they weren't replying then I could see the number of emails that the ENV sent. If I ever had to remove an ENV for not doing their job I could use the lack of emails from them as proof, the same goes for rewarding them too. Having every ENV in the DB CC someone in the HM office is so impractical that it isn't even worth talking about though, that'd be way too much email to sift through. I feel that requiring ENVs (or whoever does that job) to CC their summits is the first step in building accountability. As an aside: I've never had to fire an Envoy, the only time I've had to replace one in the last 2 years was when one moved up to AED after holding the position for around 6 months.

I think one of the biggest problems with the Envoys is that many people see it as a short term position

That's a major problem that, I feel, needs much more attention then the oversight issue. I know that Taldryan doesn't view Envoys as short term or training positions, that's what we have BTL for. The only short term position related to ENVs is A:ENV. The only time that Tal uses A:ENV is when an ENV has said that they want to step down and we're training a replacement, or we have a huge rush of new members and the ENV needs help. I have a feeling that if the other leaders in the club start to look at ENVs as full members of the summit (my ENV is on my summit email list, he has a say just like the AED) then that'll take care of a large part of the issue.

Clans have quite a bit of autonomy in how they handle their own matters on just about every issue. The Clans are the ones who are given the tasks of looking over their leaders and making sure they're all doing their work. For the most part the DC doesn't meddle in the affairs of the Clans, other than to ensure the Consuls are doing their jobs.

However, the aspect of new members being introduced into the DB goes beyond the Clans. That's the point Jac was making. There have been plenty of cases where Envoys/House Leaders and even Clan leaders all weren't doing their job. It usually takes a little while for that to become apparent however. That means that during this time we may be losing a lot of new members. We may not be...but who knows. It's a risk we shouldn't be taking.

Take a second and just step back a little. Is it really hard to ask Envoys, who should be cc'ing their leaders anyways to add one more little contact? To make it even simpler, you can just make a very generic e-mail that the HM office has access to. For example "envoy@gmail.com" So it would be the same e-mail, even if the HM, P:HM or whatever changes.

It's not saying that every Envoy and every leader isn't doing their job. Most people do their jobs very well. However, the point is ensuring that the club itself is doing all it can for these new members. And if Envoys are slipping, and the House/Clan leaders aren't catching it, we can be sure that someone will. It still isn't meddling in Clan affairs. It isn't telling people HOW to do their jobs. It's just making sure that this one area is working like it should, no matter who's doing it

I'm only going to say a few things on this matter, as I am the "outgoing" KCB.

I have fully supported a small, close knit, DEDICATED group of 6 individuals to serve as Envoys. Each Clan would get one Envoy, and their ONLY position would be Envoy. No more double dipping with Envoy and AED or Envoy and QUA, etc.

That way, for accountability, you have ONE person to go to. This person should be well versed in the Clan's operating procedures including promotion guidelines and the like. This way, instead of Assistant Envoy, Envoy, Clan Envoy, Knight Commander, you have Clan Envoy and Special Magistrate to the Headmaster.

This would trim the KSOE from 30+ to 7. That bears repeating. 7 Envoys. Total. In the Entire DB.

But I digress. This was an option I was kicking around for quite some time before I decided to step down as the Knight Commander themselves should be solely dedicated to the cause and I felt more of a connection to my Clan as PCON than I did to the DB as a whole as KCB. No one was coming to me daily telling me that my Clan was failing but doing nothing to help or providing solutions to the problems that they saw.

Here is what I CAN tell you. Envoys have been consistently receiving 4s and 5s on the Advancement Surveys from new members. This tells me that Envoys are working in the way that they should.

A few months ago, I suggested to the GM and DGM that we disband all the Societies and move the KCB to SM:HM and the CM to T:ACC. Those ideas were shot down. The Society of Envoys exists today because no one could come up with a way that was both amenable to the Clans as well as the DC. The DC wants oversight of the Envoys, but the Clans want to run the Envoys themselves.

Until there is a compromise reached on the way that we all promote new membership, the fissure over the KSOE will exist. Until people realize that Envoy, like Dark Council, is a thankless job, there will always be issue.
People expect to jump into an Envoy position, hang out for a few months, talk to a few new members, and get rewarded because of it. That is not the case. Envoys are very rarely rewarded for their work, and when they are, it is because of long term and EXCEPTIONAL service. There is so much to expect from an "average" Envoy that to go above and beyond is more than some members are willing to put forward.

What I don't understand is that since the Envoy is usually the first person a new member talks to, why the Clan Summits don't appoint people that they know will do a stellar job no matter what. For example, CSP has two outstanding Envoys. These two folks expect nothing more for their work as Envoys other than active new members. We all have to remember that new members are our lifeblood. If we can't keep them, then we continue to compete against the same people day in and day out and we'll likely get similar results each time. Boring to anyone else but me?

Long and short of it all, Envoys are needed on a Clan Level.

I apologize if any of this didn't make sense, I've been up for about five hours now with my newborn daughter.

The SoE can go, Envoys should be a Clan level resource. If the DC wants oversight of new members, then new members should be assigned to the Shadow Academy until they gain a certain rank (like they were at one point). In fact I think that system may prove be more effective, if administered correctly.

You don't want the SA in charge of early training. As it stands now, at least if a couple of the clans are rubbish and inept, then at least a few new members will get through the other clans and make the club stronger. If they were all filtered into the SA then it would just take one bad period of time to kill the club off.