Coj Cases

Kir

05-08-2007 12:38:44

I've made this thread so people can respond to my JST reports (as they so often do) on the MBs, because the discussions tend to be long and this is the most appropriate forum.

Morgan

05-08-2007 12:50:44

I said it a was a waste of time from the start. The Blade and Khobs thing, i mean. I agree with Thorin's post on the comments page on the original post. What i have to say is, i think Justicar should be done away with as a singular position, and made into three equal positions. Some may or may not agree, but there's always [Expletive Deleted]calling, some of it perhaps warranted, some of it perhaps not.

I say three equals because i know we have a Left Hand, and a Right Hand, but as Thorin said about one person deciding if something should go to trial. Three equals, thats diffrent, you cant [Expletive Deleted] talk three equals for all being biased or anything like that, and if one of said equals isnt seeing it as clearly as they should, the other two may be able to pick up the slack and stop silly things getting this far.

Karel

05-08-2007 12:51:20

Only thing I don't understand is why couldn't have this been settled out of court, simply by asking the two people if they played that game or not, rather than starting this whole spectacle? You didn't even ask for a server log, you presumed that just because they didn't play in a DB server meant that they didn't play at all. This whole case was just used to demoralize two players for this GJW and it's sad that such methods are used when a simple chat would have solved it all in 5 minutes.

Anonymous

05-08-2007 12:57:06

Perhaps this is a good time to consider revising our justice system. As it stands now, the JST soley decides if an offense should go to trial. What it also does, in less obvious ways, is allow the justicar to solely declare someone innocent, without a trial.

Furthermore, the Covenant dosen't allow for any sort of appeal to the Justicar's decision, should the Justicar decide no infraction has been committed, and a complaint is dismissed. Additionally, in this case, the stigma that follows the beginning of a trial could follow these members for sometime, which obviously, they did not deserve.

The Justicar will tell you he dosen't decide if there is sufficient evidence for a trial, but in reality, he is effectively declaring innnocence everytime he says there is not sufficient evidence.

With a complaintant not being able to appeal these decisions, it grants a power to the Justicar that was never intended, and, leaves a wide open door for bias in any complaint. One can argue that the Justicar's decision can be appealed to the Grand Master, however, the Covenant does not provide for this, in fact it clearly states the Justicar is the highest authority on justice in the Brotherhood.

In real life, there are far more steps that allow everyone a chance to prove thier case (police investigations, grand juries, ect). In the Brotherhood, there are all rolled into one - the Justicar. And, assuming that no person is perfect, this creates an open door for problems to arise, as in this case.

Morgan

05-08-2007 12:57:09

Thats the point isnt it, i mean Blade and Khobs are both somewhat negative people, but even negative people have a place here, and they're also outspoken. I think that this had something to do with it on a small scale on how it got taken to trial.

Thats how i feel anyway. I think if it were two other people it wouldnt have gotten this far. Cant help what i feel. :P

Jac Cotelin

05-08-2007 13:20:59

Just to be clear on one point as to why the trial proceeded in the first place: no one involved knew that JA logged matches made on private, home-grown servers until 3 days ago.

The exculpatory evidence was submitted was the games.log file in the JA/base folder. When the trial initially began, no one on the defense side or the prosecution side thought that those would exist in this case. Everyone believed that only real servers logged matches. Otherwise, Khobai would have brought up the log on day 1 and this would have been done. Since no one knew where to look or even knew to look at all, there's nothing that could have been done pre-trial to figure this one out.

Hell, even Dessan didn't know this and he knows everything. The only reason we found out is because I just randomly decided to check the other day.

Down to the basics: there were two pieces of evidence that could have exculpated the defendants. 1) a log of them agreeing to play on a private server could have, but neither Blade nor Khobai log IRC. 2) the JA server log did exculpate them, but until well into the trial no one even knew that those existed. I just randomly tried to make a server one day and found the log. Nothing would have changed pre-trial because we were all ignorant to that fact.

Morgan

05-08-2007 14:23:18

So... you saved Khobai?

I just wanted to word it like that. :P

Heeheehee.

Jac Cotelin

05-08-2007 14:34:16

LOL. I guess, in a way.

Which is good. If they really played the matches, I didn't want them getting hit with a demotion. That shit wouldn't be right. Which is why as soon as the logs showed up, Kir dropped the charges.

Xanos

05-08-2007 14:57:49

For the benefit of Morg, a shorter version :P

I'm replying to Thorin's post, btw.

I figure theres pros and cons for having whether something goes to trial done by more than one person. I assume if the JST says "no" he doesn't just say "no, piss off" but provides some kind of reason, even if its as simple as "there isnt enough evidence" or something. In that case, I don't think it necessarily matters, as what he's really saying is "go back and collect more evidence". That's the same as real life really, judges will tell the prosecution to go back to the drawing board. That shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as the judge saying the person is innocent because he could just be wanting to ensure they have a solid case before it goes to trial to ensure a conviction (double jeopardry etc).

I certainly agree having three "judges" would offer more transparency. That said, unless the JST is actively making the wrong decisions (which is a whole different can of worms which I'm not going to go into), it wouldn't change the outcome of things, but would make it appear more transparent. The only problem I feel that might arise is as the Hands are not necessarily as experienced as the JST they may not be in as much of a position to make the call, so would just end up agreeing with the JST anyway. If that happened, I imagine people would still dislike the setup, albeit for different reasons.

So, I dunno, it really depends what we think is more important -- experience ("being right") or transparency ("being seen to be right")?

Now, clearly, I'm living in the law student dreamworld of where no judge is bias and where this is all in total theory and everything works like clockwork as I've described. I think we all have to ultimately accept no legal system is going to be perfect and that we'll have to make compromises somewhere, so it's really a case of where we want to compromise and what we feel is more important. Though, obviously, that means there are always going to be those who come from different schools of thought who dislike the system.

In the end, I don't know, I guess being able to look at it from both sides I'm rather indifferent about it all, as I'm always able to pick holes in anything no matter what it looks like.

Is that easier to understand Morg? :P

Morgan

05-08-2007 15:20:56

Say again? :S

Xanos

05-08-2007 15:22:51

There, I've shortened it for you. :P

I admit, it was rather hideously long. Blame that on the essay I had to write this afternoon. I was still in a long winded padding out mode when I first wrote that post.

BubbaX

05-08-2007 17:58:24

My two cents - having served under Kir as Right Hand, I can say that he does not make decisions such as innocence, guilt, whether to hold a trial or not, etc. without weighing all available evidence and discussing the options with the Hands. I don't think having three equal judicial officers would solve any problems; in fact, it would more likely than not cause new ones. The current system works pretty well, I think, whether you can see all the inner-workings of the CoJ or not.

Dismal

05-08-2007 19:22:56

Calls for the old quote "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" :)

Khobai

05-08-2007 19:29:47

You've completely missed the point. The point is that our case never should have gone to trial in the first place. Members accused of a violation are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Kir completely failed to question Blade or myself regarding our JA matches prior to the start of the trial. While I understand that Kir is under no such obligation to "hear both sides of the story", I still feel it goes strongly against the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" to initiate a trial based on the accusor's complaints without first giving the accused the opportunity to prove that the complaint is invalid.

Raidoner

05-08-2007 20:05:32

In my opinion despite the fact that Khobai and Blade might not be the DB's most popular members with some folks, I truly do not think that veteran members such as these gentlemen would actually do something as foolish as to report fake matches.

It just would not be worth the risk.

Karel

07-08-2007 04:46:00

That's a good point, with or without that match, nothing crucial would have changed in the MP ladder, its not like Blade or Khobai were first placed and because of that match they lose everything. So why make a trial instead of just asking them about the games, agreeing it was played in a different server, and just delete the matches? Well, God forbid we do anything the easy way. Cheaters must pay...

Morgan

07-08-2007 15:56:01

Nice post Raid. Exactly what i thought.

People can say they thought there was evidence for it because of this that or the other... Khobs and Blade arnt two people who've come to the club in the past few years. If Jac or Sarin didnt play on a "blessed" server, would we accuse them?

What i feel is, Khobs and Blade are labeled as "destructive", or at least not constructive. Does an episode like this make them want to be anything but? They were playing matches for thier clans, being... dare i say it... constructive. :P