Envoys - A Failed System?

Kir

11-07-2007 09:28:23

In his latest report the GM said this:

"Because of our overall poor performance, I am going to take a comprehensive look at our promotion process from APP to DJK. I am a firm believer that our new members need a automated system to help indoctrinate them in the Dark Brotherhood and I point to the 74% of our APPs who took the ToL as a sign of this. These new members want instantaneous activity upon joining and we need to tailor that activity so that they are indoctrinated better into the Dark Brotherhood. In addition to this instantaneous activity, they need to see instantaneous results.

I also believe our poor numbers are an indication that the Society of Envoys is a failure. This is why the Headmaster is currently sitting in the KCB position and this is also why I do not see the selection of a new KCB any time soon."


A discussion started in the comments (wrong place!), so I moved it here. I put up the old posts from the comments section first:


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Sarin you can't call the Society of Envoys a failure or blame it for the poor retention figures, its a bit like blaming your reception staff because people don't like your hotel. In the time I was KCB I saw great work from Envoys in each of the Clans, both in greeting new members and sending them information about the DB and encouraging them to be active.

However if the activities they're guiding people toward aren't encouraging them to stay and do them and the work isn't supported at later levels in their progression by keeping people interested then to be honest as Envoys we probably were wasting our time even the best salesman can't sell something people don't want to buy.

-Malisane

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Um. Not to be negative, but...yes they can. I'm a salesman, and I made people pay for stuff well above its regular price. And I suck at my job. Heh. =/

I'm sure Sarin didn't make his assertion lightly. Some envoys are good at their jobs, and some aren't. However, as it's an Envoy's job to make sure new members get a good start and progress nicely within their respective units, you cannot ignore the fact that the statistics don't speak well for them. Maybe the idea of an Envoy is good, but the way it's structured is just ineffective? Whatever the kink in the plan (heh, kink!), it's obviously not getting us the desired results.

Then again, it could be that a lot of the new sign-ups just lose their interest after the first week. I don't doubt that a large majority of the new membership are in their early teens, so it's natural they get distracted easily.

-Tarax

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While I agree with the fact that the numbers speak to a deficiency in the KSOE, I don't think you can call the concept a failure. Sarin, I concur that new members need instant gratification. It's far too easy to get bored in this club if there is nothing out there that interests you. The Envoys, at least the way I always saw it, were a means to an end. Not only were they responsible for getting members to a certain rank, it was also their responsibility to ensure that the general membership that they looked over contributed to the Clan/House as a whole. This is why I always encouraged the Envoys (who always seemed as though they had the inside track on new members) to create and run competitions specifically for those members that they were trying to get involved.

I would say though that we need to be careful not to sacrifice quality for quantity. In our efforts to raise retention, we should not rush members through the process. You tend to get shotty members when that happens. If there is a middle ground to be had, I wish the KCB/HM the best of luck in finding it.

-Lucien

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That's not true, idiots still make it through the exhisting promotion system. Malisane right, as a 'new' Dark Jedi Knight but a vertran RPGer I found the DB somewhat lacking during my younger years but as time passed I was involved in more projects which occupied me more but not everyone is open to that option and besides who's gonna get a NOV write up a clan history or something along those lines.

Applicable competitions (those that introduce the members to the DB and the SW universe) should be offered in great frequency to the younger members, and I'm sure an automated system would be better, although I can see a great number dropping out then due to the shortcomings of the Equite to whatever promotion scheme.

-Kieran

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would just like to add a comment from myself being how I am at the bottom of this totem pole. I have had nothing but good experiences with an Envoy I have crossed. Even some that are not in my own clan take the time to help me out a little bit here and there. So if you people want to cry about retention being low let me break it down easy on why its probably not going to get any better no matter what you do. Back in our days growing up life was much mroe slow paced and we had to use our imagination so joining the Brotherhood and doing some RP stuff is easy and enjoyable. But these kids of the modern generation probably just put in google dark jedi came across this site and didn't even read what it was about before joining up and got the shit scared out of them when they realized they would have to rp and its not all about playing video games and oh Heaven forbid they have to work for a rank with no "I win button" or no fast track to be "Uber Loot J3DAI KILLAZ" ot how ever that whole leet speak stuff goes. Why stick around this club when they can play JA and Jo elsewhere with no need to write stories about their fictional characters history and take some tests in the academy. so Take my advice and ignore those stupid numbers and just be proud that at least some member make it to the higher ranks. After all I thought becomming a Jedi was supposed to be hard and not many people will make it.

-Yeldarb

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Yeldarb raises a valid point, these days it's harder to keep younger peoples attention they're interested in World of Warcraft and Xbox 360s and Nintendo Wiis and Turkey Twizzlers it's natural in the post prequel days it's going to be harder to retain new members because right now there isn't the same publicity there was two years ago. It's not anyones fault.

-Malisane

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There, now...continue.

Lucien

11-07-2007 09:53:20

The only problem I can see with a fully automated system from INI to say, Jedi Hunter, is that the Clans will lose a great deal of autonomy in deciding how they want their members trained. I mean, there used to be a way (which I used) to get promoted simply through the SA. I don't know if that path still exists or not, but I always felt as though it didn't produce as well rounded a member as I would have liked.

However, despite all that, I firmly believe that some of our new members suffer from an Attention Deficiency. I'm with Yeldarb on this. Why would a 13 year old kid come and RP on "pen and paper" when they can pick up KOTOR and be a Dark Jedi in no time.

Basically, there is no one reason for our retention and advancement issues. I am hoping that the GM and HM can see that. The Envoys do what they can within the scope of the DB to try and get these members interested. But, if there is nothing out there in the DB that interests them, what are we to do? We can't please everyone all the time.

Sarin

11-07-2007 10:24:48

Just a bit of clarification:

My comment about the Society of Envoys being a failure is not an attack on individual Envoys. My comment is directed at the Envoy system and the lack of success it has had since it was created. The KCB is a meaningless position because they have no authority or influence on the Clan promotion systems. They do not have the ability to fire or even appoint envoys from within a Clan nor would our Consuls ever relinquish their promotion systems over to the KCB.

This is why the society fails. It is merely another form of bureaucracy that does not need to exist in the Dark Brotherhood. The individual envoys can do great work, but that work is directed by Consuls, not by the Society.

So, yes...I stand by my point. The Society as a whole is a failure.

Sarin

11-07-2007 10:26:48

The only problem I can see with a fully automated system from INI to say, Jedi Hunter, is that the Clans will lose a great deal of autonomy in deciding how they want their members trained. I mean, there used to be a way (which I used) to get promoted simply through the SA. I don't know if that path still exists or not, but I always felt as though it didn't produce as well rounded a member as I would have liked.

However, despite all that, I firmly believe that some of our new members suffer from an Attention Deficiency. I'm with Yeldarb on this. Why would a 13 year old kid come and RP on "pen and paper" when they can pick up KOTOR and be a Dark Jedi in no time.

Basically, there is no one reason for our retention and advancement issues. I am hoping that the GM and HM can see that. The Envoys do what they can within the scope of the DB to try and get these members interested. But, if there is nothing out there in the DB that interests them, what are we to do? We can't please everyone all the time.




Clans have fairly autonomous systems now and we just had 9/1100 members make DJK in the last year's class. I think this might be a reason not to give the Clans that autonomy. >:)

This is all open for discussion though, I have not made my mind up, and I will be working with the Clans/Anshar/Kraval on how we will approach this issue in the future.

So, no worries....i dont plan on taking away anyone's autonomy (yet).

Tarax Kor

11-07-2007 10:42:34

I did the suggested thing and e-mailed Lucien in regard to his opinion rather than reply on the comments thread. =P

*taps self on the back*

But...I firmly stand with Sarin that a Society of Envoys is wholly useless. Anything regarding the Envoys should never leave the Clan's structure. I've always felt that a whole society for them was completely needless.

Karel

11-07-2007 10:57:45

I think if the statistics are this bad, someone needs to take responsibility. And are we going to blame our entire club, activities, and every single person in it, or are we just going to admit that this society is flawed, and needs to change its methods? How to change it, is debatable, but the first step is to admit something is wrong and needs to be fixed. And no, blaming low membership on "kids today" and the Xbox just won't cut it.

Tarax Kor

11-07-2007 11:11:05

Yup. That's pretty much the general consensus here, Karel. :)

Bah. Kids today. :P *shakes his fist*

Dismal

11-07-2007 12:07:37

Speaking as an Envoy myself, I can say that I agree whole heartedly with Sarin and Tarax. The Society is completely useless, as is the Knight Commander position. I've only dealt with the KCB once, and that was to give him a few small ideas on the fictional side of the Envoys. I believe complete control of the Envoys should be given to the Clans. While we only had 9/1100 make it to Dark Jedi Knight, I do say that it is the fact that people want instant activity. That's what most Initiates and Apprentices want. Like Lucien said, a thirteen year old who joins wouldn't want to join the Brotherhood and work and work for a rank like Dark Jedi Knight when they could pick up KOTOR and be any kind of Jedi they want. Then again there are adults who join, and most usually they have children and busy real lives, something most of us don't have. ( :P ) Most members just won't want to work and work; they want to be a Dark Jedi Master instantly, when they can be a DJM in say KOTOR or SWG or something. Just my meaningless $0.02.

Cuchulain

11-07-2007 12:14:06

The guidelines for promotion that come from the MAA should be adapted to reflect that there may be loads of pesky kids who come to join. Maybe all they want is a club where they just play JO and JA and whatever other games there are to play without the need for the SA courses and fiction stuff. Can't we also be that? Is too much emphasis put on the fiction and RP side of things? With promotion then perhaps so.

Maybe have a points system. Each medal or SA course is allocated a worth in points, and each rank is graded as to how many points a person should need. The House and Clan Summits can guide a person depending on what they want to do and tell them where they should do it, and the rest is up to the individual.

You can lead a horse to water...

Andan Taldrya Marshall

11-07-2007 12:53:43

The Envoys themselves, as individuals working with the various house/clan summits, seem to be working pretty well. The society, on the other hand, is a completely useless load of BS that just works against the best interest of the members by slowing down appointments of Envoys and trying to stick its collective nose in the clan's business of training and promoting new members.

The debate really boils down to who should have authority over promotions. There are two answers that you can go with: the clans (which can delegate farther down to the houses) or the DB in general. If you say the DB then we need one single set of promo standards for all clans to use. The problem with that, however, is that it saps the individuality of the clans; while all the promotions for the same rank should be held to the same standards, there are more then a few ways to do the same amount of work for a promo and different clans put a different emphasis on different areas of the DB, this should be reflected in their differing promotion guides. If you think that promotion authority should be with the clans, then the idea of a society of envoys with a KCB is just ridiculous because you'd have someone outside of the envoy's chain of command (the house/clan summits) trying to tell them what to do. If we're going with the idea that promo guides should come from the clans then auto promos are also useless for the same reason.

Here's two ideas for everyone to think about:
1) The last time I checked, the MAA was reviewing the clan's promo guides and seeing if they were in line with what his office released. Why don't we let that finish and give that system a little time to see if it's working or not. If it isn't then we can start talking about scraping the current system and starting over but it isn't a very good idea to condemn a system that hasn't had time to prove itself

2) Maybe the root of the problem is that the members have unrealistic goals (i.e. becoming a DJM is a few months). If that's the case then nothing short of a complete overhaul of the promotion system to make it possible to get to DJM in a few months will satisfy them. I don't think that anyone will agree to those changes, though.

Lucien

11-07-2007 13:11:04

Well, given all the great points made here today, I have a suggestion. Everyone seems to think that individual Envoys are performing quite well within the Clans, but the KSOE is flawed and broken and useless. So, what I suggest is to place the Envoys back under the direct command of the Dark Council and rename them the Grand Master's Envoys or something similar. This way, you don't have a layer of useless red tape.

As a society, at least from what I have seen and experienced, the KSOE doesn't work too well. There is an underlying understanding that a Society works together to accomplish a given goal, but the Envoys rarely do that. Rarely do we see Envoys from opposing Clans working together to complete the goal of overall member advancement and retention.

Anshar: Back when you were only the KCB, you had a great system in place to track member advancement by Clan and awards were presented to those Clans' Envoys who did an outstanding job getting their members involved and promoted. Is this still in place? I can tell you from personal experience that it got me even more motivated to help out the newer members. The Envoys are inherently a selfless position, giving and giving and rarely receiving. This is why it takes a certain kind of member to be a successful Envoy.

Unfortunately, I do see the need for an oversight of the Envoys apart from the GM. Sarin has far too much on his plate to be considering/approving Envoy placements. This is why I think it is a great idea that the Headmaster is also the oversight of the Envoys. The HM is in the best possible position to head the Envoys and this is the way I think it should have always been done and how it should continue to be. There is really no need for a KAB whatsoever.

As for instant gratification, the SA path to Guardian was instant gratification at it's "finest." When the member completed the required courses, they were promoted. It was simple and easy and it got members interested in the DB as a whole. Those members who stayed stagnant at APP/NOV probably were looking for something else entirely and were therefore released with the next AWOL check. I say we at least look into the possibility of bringing back the SA path to GRD.

Adien Falaut

11-07-2007 13:16:54

The Envoys themselves, as individuals working with the various house/clan summits, seem to be working pretty well.  The society, on the other hand, is a completely useless load of BS that just works against the best interest of the members by slowing down appointments of Envoys and trying to stick its collective nose in the clan's business of training and promoting new members. 

The debate really boils down to who should have authority over promotions.  There are two answers that you can go with: the clans (which can delegate farther down to the houses) or the DB in general.  If you say the DB then we need one single set of promo standards for all clans to use.  The problem with that, however, is that it saps the individuality of the clans; while all the promotions for the same rank should be held to the same standards, there are more then a few ways to do the same amount of work for a promo and different clans put a different emphasis on different areas of the DB, this should be reflected in their differing promotion guides.  If you think that promotion authority should be with the clans, then the idea of a society of envoys with a KCB is just ridiculous because you'd have someone outside of the envoy's chain of command (the house/clan summits) trying to tell them what to do.  If we're going with the idea that promo guides should come from the clans then auto promos are also useless for the same reason.

Here's two ideas for everyone to think about:
1) The last time I checked, the MAA was reviewing the clan's promo guides and seeing if they were in line with what his office released.  Why don't we let that finish and give that system a little time to see if it's working or not.  If it isn't then we can start talking about scraping the current system and starting over but it isn't a very good idea to condemn a system that hasn't had time to prove itself

2) Maybe the root of the problem is that the members have unrealistic goals (i.e. becoming a DJM is a few months).  If that's the case then nothing short of a complete overhaul of the promotion system to make it possible to get to DJM in a few months will satisfy them.  I don't think that anyone will agree to those changes, though.




1).I agree 100% on finishing the promotion guidlelines I haven't heard anything more of it in my clan and yes starting over would be a-lot of work but also it would greatly clean things up by a considerable margain.

2). Now some members yes I would say that there is a bit of unrealisim in their goals for attaining rank but then again there are several members that have been at their current rank for a very long time and need to at least have it laid out what they are doing/not doing to progress I can see how that could cause some less dedicated members to lose interest in the club altogether and that could be a factor in why there has been so many problems with the envoys

Jac Cotelin

11-07-2007 13:19:26

I don't have much time to reply, but I just wanted to clarify the word "automated" from the coder perspective...

"Automated" is a term of art, kinda -- it doesn't mean that people can go into the website, do a few tasks and boom they are DJK in three days. Rather, we are going to do our best to take the existing guidelines and do a few things with them: 1) present the guidelines (still customizable by the clans) on the DB site to members as they receive promotions; 2) track as much of the activity data about those members as is at all possible on the website (SA courses taken, competitions participated in/won, MB postings, etc. etc.); 3) Do our best to apply the tracked data to the promotions guidelines; and 4) present that data to both the member and their leaders.

I would like a member to log into the site and be able to see exactly where they are in their quest for the next promotion. Some of it will be trackable by the site (IE: A requirement asking for them to participate in 3 competitions will receive a big checkmark after they actually participate in three), while the rest will at least tell them what they have to do -- and hopefully we'll be able to have leaders come in and check off requirements for people.

Oh...and then the leader may just be able to hit a button to send a list of that stuff to the MAA for the promotion. (I highly doubt the MAA will be removed from the process)

Yes, it will be super awesome, but...don't get super excited...we have a lot of other things to do before we get there.

This, in my mind, is absolutely necessary. The stats are abysmal, and I don't think any work of the Envoys is really going to change that. Let's face it, if the Envoys really did everything that they could possibly do for new members, they'd work harder than the regular Clan/House leaders. It's just not proper, realistic or logical to put all that weight on a few members shoulders...

Not to mention that our member base is changing. This website was revolutionary in...1998. Now, it's nothing super special. We need to up the ante to bring people in and keep them in.

Andan Taldrya Marshall

11-07-2007 15:07:13

Jac: An automated system like that would be amazing, as a Quaestor I'd love to see something like that. It would make my job much easier (as did the introduction of the medal request form on the database so we didn't have to email the CHAN about them all those years ago)

Melkor: I can't speak to any of the other clans, but I know that in Taldryan we're still working out the details of our revised promotion guide. The process is happening within the summits, though, so the general membership doesn't know the details of what we're working on at the moment. If you're wondering how things are going with your clan's guide I'd talk with your Consul and see where you are in the process (and maybe even offer to help if the project isn't moving).

As for the members who have been at their rank for a long time, that's where the Envoy and house summits should be stepping in and asking if there is anything that they can help with to get the member promoted. It may be the case that that specific member has lost interest, but there's also the possibility that the thing that they're stuck on is too hard. An example of something like this is when I was Aedile in Ektrosis we had a requirement that the people pass an ACC qualification battle for one of their promotions and a lot of people were getting hung up here because it took a while to pass the qual battle. My Quaestor, Envoy and myself saw the problem and corrected it by substituting the qualification battle with something equitable but doable in less time.

Kir

11-07-2007 15:27:38

When I joined the DB, you would go through the Shadow Academy all the way through GRD. This took the ambitious new member probably 4-5 days, during which time they were required to complete courses that taught the basics of the DB, clans, houses, competitions, etc. You were also encouraged during that time to get on IRC and start talking with your clanmates. After you reached GRD, promotions from then on were handled by your house/clan. The system worked pretty well for me, because it allowed me to earn somewhat quick promotions (which are fun for new members), while learning the ins and outs of the DB and I slowly got sucked in and became a permanent member.

What really stuck out at me are these two statistics Sarin mentioned:

1) Out of 1122 new members last year, only ten made it to Dark Jedi Knight (that's less then 1%)
2) 74% of APPs took the Test of Lore

One of those numbers is abysmal, and the other offers a glimmer of hope. The fact that less than 1% of the members that joined last year made it to DJK is horrible, and should frighten anyone who is concerned about the continued viability of our club. However, 74% of new Apprentices took the Test of Lore, which is now automated and can be taken immediately - that is a huge percentage when we are talking about anything related to new members (and if you don't think the automation has anything to do with it, only 8% of new members made it to PRT, just three easy ranks higher, outside of automation - 74% to 8% to less than 1% is a huge series of dropoffs)

So, what causes this high number, and how can we replicate that to hold onto more members?

I happen to think there are two main causes, the first being that the test is automated, easy to complete, and gives an immediate payoff, and the second being that new members are generally very motivated when they first join, but that motivation tends to fall off after that. Why does it falloff? Typically because the rewards after the ToL come slower, and require they contact their QUA or ENV and begin to do thinks completely by themselves, which can be very confusing for new members. I don't think that many people can be expected to understand our system well enough after only the ToL to work their ways up to DJK, without a better introduction or someone holding their hand the whole way, it typically just doesn't happen.

The easiest (sorry to the coders) solution I see to this problem is slowing integrating the system Jac talked about. Have easy-to-understand guidelines that are easily accessed by new members, that they can follow and complete quickly to gain the first several promotions. This pulls them in, and along the way should give them a decent introduction to DB operations. Yes, this probably means the clans will lose a bit of autonomy when it comes to promotional guidelines (in the early stages only) - but I firmly believe that APP thru PRT or even GRD could be made a single, DB-wide standard quite easily. I think we would retain a lot more new members if they could easy reach PRT within a week or two, while they acclimate to our system. Then once we have them hooked, they stay and become old people like me :)


As for the Envoys - I agree with Sarin's assessment of the situation. I was a Consul when the envoy system morphed into it's current form, and I've dealt with the system from the CON (clan) level, and the DGM (DB-wide) level, and I have never thought it adaquately fulfilled it's purpose. There are many individually great envoys who do their utmost to help new members, however as a group the turnover is too high, the skill and commitment level is horribly inconsistent - they simply add an additional level of bureaucracy that is no longer necessary. We need to accept that the Envoy experiment has failed, and move on.

That does NOT mean that Houses need to give up on the work that a good envoy does - but we do not need an additional Societal framework for that to exist. Does everyone remember rollmasters? A LONG time ago they actually had to compile and update excel rosters (before our fancy database) - however now they mostly float in limbo. When the society of envoy is canceled, houses that wish to keep their envoys could just make them rollmasters - and those houses who don't want or need them can ignore the position. Also don't forget, and this is a point I liked to push when I was a Consul - when it comes down to it, House and Clan summits are responsible for retaining their members. QUAs, AEDs, PCONs, and CONs should all be doing envoy-ish activities on a daily basis, and if they complete them correctly, an additional position specifically for those duties isn't necessary at all.

Ok, now I've got emails and other things to respond to, mini-position paper over.

Hel-Pa Sklib

11-07-2007 15:30:00

I think an automated system where members could track their progress would help tremendously. I, and maybe some others, were under the impression that for example, "Take three SA courses and become NOV" was what the automated system would be like. Crix also has a valid point with Clan individuality; if the automated system is incorporated into each Clan's specific promotion guide, than I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Dismal

11-07-2007 15:48:37

Cooch: Clan Plagueis had a points system. It failed horribly. I wouldn't reccomend it.

Dismal

11-07-2007 15:50:47

Also, in response to Sklib and others, automated system ftw.

Andan Taldrya Marshall

11-07-2007 16:22:11

I think an automated system where members could track their progress would help tremendously. I, and maybe some others, were under the impression that for example, "Take three SA courses and become NOV" was what the automated system would be like. Crix also has a valid point with Clan individuality; if the automated system is incorporated into each Clan's specific promotion guide, than I have no problem with it whatsoever.



That was the same idea that I had when I heard "automated" because that's how the old system was. My main concern is preserving the individuality of the clans and their views on promotions (within limits set by the MAA, of course), as long as that can be done within an automated system then I'm all for it.

Vail

11-07-2007 16:55:49

I'll agree with the people who say Envoy system needs to be changed. If you have a great idea (and Envoys, as the working cases show, are such an idea), but applied in practice it is clearly seen it depends heavily on the human factor.

Although, before a number of Clans had their own systems in place paralel to the Envoy system. I think I recall at least three which had some sort of a Master-Student system, either officially or unofficially, but then again, I guess that system showed about the same results.

So, a change is necessary, and the automated system should be given a try, possibly supplmented by Clan systems that would focus on integrating members into the group.

Those who are afraid that the clans might lose individuality - well, first few ranks are usually quick and easy anyway, and even if the new system exit rank is GRD, you'll have two ranks JH and DJK to steer the members in the direction Clan wants them. As a benefit, you will have an easy to run system that everyone will be familiar about, and a large target group to easily see how it might be improved.

Halcyon

11-07-2007 18:18:25

I'll try not to repeat what people have already said. In terms of an "automated" system, I'm assuming it'll top off at a lower rank (PRT or GRD) but will incorporate a lot of different elements...which will also be a pain to code in probably :P In the previous automated system, where you could get to PRT in a couple days, many members would then become annoyed that they had to "wait" for higher ranks. Instant gratification can only take you so far, so in the fight to have quantity, don't kill of "quality" either. You may make it "easy" to get to DJK, but then they'll hit a big road-block after that, and you get the same thing in the end...but at a later rank.

As for promotional guidelines...a "set" version has been out for quite some time. Actually, a week or two after I got MAA...so roughly half a year or so now? I think that's given Clans more than enough time to update their guidelines so the MAA can look at them. Each Clan should have their own "guidelines" just to keep that uniqueness about them. I think the guidelines in general will be made easier to get to DJK, but that should be easy to update at this stage for those who do have some good, set guidelines...just lessen the requirements :P

Another big issue however, and one not easily rectified, are all of the leaders themselves. A big issue I've noticed is that some Envoys and other House and Clan leaders just don't like to communicate. I hear a lot of "no one reads the e-mails anyways" or "it won't matter", etc, etc... People are also just plain lazy and won't try and stay in contact with newer members. No, it isn't always "fun" and yes, the majority of members who join the DB won't go much farther than NOV or ACO. No matter what the process is, there will always be more people who go AWOL completely then not. That being said, there is also a good percentage out there that may not take to the DB right away, but a couple extra e-mails and conversations and they'll get hooked. It is the responsibility of the entire leadership chain to ensure that all members, new and old, are getting the information and attention they need/deserve. So yes, you have to send out those e-mails and do those reports and get that information out there. The GM/DGM must ensure the Consuls are doing their jobs, who then make sure the QUA is doing their job, and all levels of Clan leadership make sure Envoys are doing their job. If one of those areas falter, the whole will suffer. So, if people do want to make this all work and get more members interested in the club as well, then you'll need to make sure you're doing what you're supossed to be doing.

Werdna Elbee

11-07-2007 18:31:29

* I've been saying for years that the Envoy System sucks ass

I personally think they should be like a Union who are nice, kind and help members, but have a purpose of being away from the chain of command so if they command does something wrong then members have someone to go to so they can demand better.

As it is now, as good a job as the Envoys are individually doing they are either doing the work that the QUA and AED should be doing, and ignoring because the Envoy does it for them, and it#s just 3rd in command because we've run out of places to put active, new people. These are of course the active new people that we apparently don't have ...


* The lack of retention is not a failure of the Envoy system

It is a failure of the club as a whole.

I've personally had better things to do over the past few months than doing this lark. It's got boring and there has been a lack of activity or communication from all areas. If they aren't going to do it then why the hell should I. I just got a Wii.

Make us feel compelled to take part. Find us interesting stuff to do. Build up a sense of community away from the tight groups on IRC.

Anshar

11-07-2007 18:38:23

Sheesh, I come home from work and find all this... :P

Ok, I'll admit up front that I've not read every post. I will, though, because there are plenty of comments here to take into consideration.

I just want to let everyone know that I have set up a new operating procedure for the Envoys. Clans now have confirmed control over what we can call the Envoy system, save for oversight on my end as HM/KCB. Back when I was Knight Commander, I had the time to do a lot. Siya and Malisane put forth good effort, but a variety of circumstances dictated other results. Some of it does fall on me. The individual Envoys themselves appeared (appear) to be doing well. I've seen an increase in the number of positive comments about the Envoys in the Advancement Surveys, which is a great sign.

After the GJW, I'll be working with Sarin to try and improve things on our end. We will be getting feedback from the clans on ideas, so we won't be charging in blindly on anything. I have some ideas that I'm going to implement and there will be someone, whether the HM or someone acting on the HM's behalf (KCB/magistrate), to coordinate certain activities for new members. This will work in conjunction with the clans. The person directly overseeing the clans' results will provide feedback to the clans, and raise concerns if problems are not addressed.

So, comments are appreciated, but do keep them constructive.

Sephiroth Kali

11-07-2007 22:34:38

I have to agree that the Envoy's need to be reinvented. I agree with what Lucien said. Also I don't think that placing the Envoy's directly under the Clans is not the answer either. Why? Because most of the time, the Clan has way too much to do than micro-manage Envoys. I'll tell you what, during most of my two years as a House Envoy, I've probuly recieved about five unsolicited emails from a KCB and half of those where because someone say a problem and was trying to fix it.

I'll tell it like I see it because I know I didn't waste two years of my life helping people only for it to get tossed in the can.

At one point I recieved a notice saying that there would be an audit on welcome emails sent to members. I sent mine in as requested. I waited, nothing. according to my emails, nearly a month passed before I sent an email to the KCB reguarding the audits. They were "still being worked on" Is this the fault of the KCB, HM, or GM? No, I don't think so. I don't know everything that was going on which IS a problem. If you got all the Envoys together on IRC and asked how many of them have spoken to anouther Envoy reguarding Envoy buisness, you would be suprised. I know I recieved one out of Clan Envoy report. in was in 2006. I have recieved two or three inter-clan envoy emails. IN TWO years! I have spoken to at least two KB's during their term, both had great ideas, but their hands were tied, one by the Clans, and the other by goodness knows what. If we want to place blame, place it on the Clan's for not facilitating the growth of the Envoys as a Society.

After all, only now, when we realise that there is a problem do we finaly come together. Hell this is the most discussion I've ever seen reguarding the KSOE. Want proof? Look at the MB forum.

Yeldarb Vohokou

11-07-2007 22:53:19

Ok I cant even begin to touch the different positions, not the promotion system since I either have not servered in teh spot to know much about it, and the promotion system has been good to me so far but I do see a need for some sort of revisal. I dont think that any RP factor should be mandatory which you can see the higher in the ranks you go the more you must complete some RP stuff. If a member wanted to come in a level strictly though gaming so be it that would be fine with me. My only argument earlier was retention numbers and the whining of only 9 people making DJK in the last year. Can someone please tell me why that is a bad thing. by gaining rank it only allows for more RP options like maing your own saber and getting more choices of clothing but in no way does that happer those that want to come in a join stricting to play games with us. As much as I desire my own saber and my fast pace up the rank ladder I know that it is never a good Idea to rush people up. They get to the top and get burnt out and stop playing but on the counter side of that if they never get promoted they get upset and quite. My only solution for this is some sort of a point system for every action. Do not set any requirments on at this rank you must doa character sheet. at this rank you must complete your wiki sheet. and at the next rank etc etc. But also One Idea I think is badly needed if that is done is there needs to be some sort of test for each rank. There should be no way someone makes it to Knight and has no clue who lets say Exar Kun is. Being a Marine in R/L history is very important to me and even though this is not the real world history of the Dark Jedi and the Brother hood should always be learned to advance no matter if your a gamer or a RPer or what ever it is you do in the DJB.

Jac Cotelin

11-07-2007 23:25:23

...My only argument earlier was retention numbers and the whining of only 9 people making DJK in the last year. Can someone please tell me why that is a bad thing. ...



Just to answer this question: DJK has long been considered the "hooked" rank, meaning, once a person gets to DJK, they are generally hooked to the club and will more into productive leadership roles in the future. The members that tend to plateau at lower ranks tend to do just that: plateau and then drop to AWOL.

Basically, DJK is the benchmark rank for the permanency of membership.

Jac

Sephiroth Kali

11-07-2007 23:41:45

It was my understanding that GRD was the rank at which one is "hooked" into the DB. It used to be writen similar in the Codex, and it is the 'rank at which a member a member may reqest a Grant of Arms' now known as warbanner. I still remember that from when I joined.

We also have to take into thought the new guidelines. It is now expected for a member to get promoted within the Equite ranks from anywhere from 6 months, up. Therfore, the time for promotion below that level needs to be significantly lower to retain new member interest.

Jac Cotelin

12-07-2007 00:29:47

GRD is a good rank, but it's not the "here to stay" rank. DJK, like you said, takes six months or longer -- that's what I, when I was GM, always based my benchmarking off of.

silverRaven

12-07-2007 00:47:59

I'm going to start of by pointing out that I'm a member of CNS, and it's one of the reasons I've been wondering about the envoy system for a long time.

When I joined back in '04, I got an email from my AED, one from my QUA, one from my Envoy, who would become my master. For many months, I went entirely without IRC. When I had a question, I emailed the whole clan. Nobody had any problems with me doing that, and I alwasy got my questiong answered. But beyond my first Envoy e-mail, I never had any interaction with an envoy.

Nowadays, I don't ever see a question coming through the mailing lists. Or the MBs. And the new members are rarely on IRC for more than a few minutes. And people come and go, but nobody has moved through the ranks in a long time.

As for the envoy system, Sarin is right, it has failed. But the idea has not. It needs a reformation, in my opinion. In fact, it should probably be the most important position in the clan.

It's my belief that every envoy should have a quick response time, and able to achieve contact through all of the means of DB communication, that means the forums, IRC, email, and maybe even AIM. They need to be monitoring these all the time, and respond to anyone's question, no matter who's house or BT they're in. And they need to keep track of everyone, and make sure they know what they are doing at the end of ever week or so.

As for the ranks, rank has absolutely nothing to do with this. You could lose interest at INI or GM, that totally depends on the person.

I think anyone reading this that wants to make a difference should make up there minds to go find out who's active, give them some encouragement, and do what the envoys failed to do. I don't think "Envoy" means anything. Talk is cheap. It's what you do that makes a difference.

I've got a little more to say, but it's late and I'm tired and can't think straight right now, so I'll just add on to this later.

Karel

12-07-2007 02:34:40

Bring back SA promotions, but expand on this idea. Everyone has skills, and these should reflect in what he has to do for the first promotions until PRT. When I joined, I did SA exams and got PRT in 4 days. What do you get in 4 days now? NOV? You expect members to stay and wait for their leaders to promote them? I didn't even know about IRC by the time I got PRT, what's to say I'm a singular case? Thing is, if you don't offer these members something in the beginning, they won't stick around, and the only way that is going to happen is by letting them do an activity they enjoy, not one that the summit feels necessary.
Let's say a new member likes to code. Do you make him write a char history for ACO? Will he care one bit about your stupid task? Another member lost...
How about a person who just loves to game, but doesn't really speak english all that well? Char history? Hell no. Of course, such examples won't make it past the fabled PRT unless they learn to develop these skills, but the catch is this: you have a better chance of keeping them here once they're PRT, especially since he gets to do what he likes. The true members will understand they need to develop other aspects too and will continue to do so, while the brats will just quit. But out of this situation you still win something. Whereas now...everyone who joins expecting to do an activity he likes is just being bombarded with useless stuff irrelevant to his interests.
What this system will produce, is an army of PRTs. Is that so bad? I think a better part of these will actually be more active than now.
Conclusion: easy promotions up to PRT based on personal interests, normal promotions after that. Oh and, the only way this will ever work is if the envoys actually communicate with the person and ask him his interests. No more e-mail template. ;)

Oh and,
Anshar: Back when you were only the KCB, you had a great system in place to track member advancement by Clan and awards were presented to those Clans' Envoys who did an outstanding job getting their members involved and promoted. Is this still in place? I can tell you from personal experience that it got me even more motivated to help out the newer members. The Envoys are inherently a selfless position, giving and giving and rarely receiving. This is why it takes a certain kind of member to be a successful Envoy.


So you need rewards for being an envoy, Lucien? That's what's been stopping everyone from doing their job? Stop the presses!
If one does his job, any job for that matter, just to get a medal, he doesn't deserve the position ;)

Yeldarb Vohokou

12-07-2007 05:01:27

Ok MAybe I am missing something here, But can anyone answer why do we need masses of people around here since that tends to be the over all goal of this place. I consider myself an avid MMO play and once a guild gets more then 50-100 no one knows each other and inturn the whole thing falls apart. This is a little different set up so I can honestly see maybe 1000 active members being fine but you get to much bigger you end up with way to many personality conflicts. So why can we not focus on quality individuals instead quantity of individuals. just my opinion but I think there are a few people way up the ranks that would just like to show off their power to even more new people.

Karel

12-07-2007 05:36:12

That's a good point Yeldarb, but the problem is we risk ending up like other clubs who followed the same principle, and who are now suffering from severe member shortage. I'm not saying open the gates and make everyone DJK instantly, but a common ground needs to be figured out, else we'll only have elders and equites from today in a few years time.

Yeldarb Vohokou

12-07-2007 08:26:09

Ok I can understand that, I was just getting the impression from alot of the higher leadership that talked in here that we need more and more people and fast and they all gotta be super active and make DJK within a month or two. Going back to my last statement about to many people causes issues I also have experienced guilds and such with no activity and bare minimum membership and thats not very good either.

So I have been awake all night playing all my star wars space games IE tie fighter, xwing, xwing vs tie, and xwing allience just pondering some possible solutions. sadly not to much has come to mind but I hear people saying try a point system, or a promotion system based off of interests, or a mix of the two. Well here is an idea I was thinking about may help some of those less active people get promoted and keep and interest because they will see themselves advancing, and I propose as long as someone is not on the Rogue list they should get credit for time spent as a member. since some have more free time to devote here that others. In real Life I am in the Marines and we get credit for Time spent in service and time at current rank, basically for every month we have been in we get 2 points and for every month we held our current rank we get 5 points. and each rank requires a certain number of points to get up to well in the marines is a Sergeant but here maybe we could make in DJK. In the Marines we also get extra credit for MCI courses which are the equivalent of the SA. We get credit for rifle, and fitness tests IE gaming, competitions. We get points for recruiting. So here yeah the scroll for recruiting people is nice but make that worth some points too. and the only thing I would advice changin from the military method is point caps. That would allow people who game more to get the same amount of points to those like me who game, do courses, and all the other things that go on. I am sure a few tweaks here and there would make this system ideal and smooth for promotions we would just have to figure out what is worth how many points and find a way to make some stuff fair. since if we give awards certain points I know some give out awards more easily then others.

And the other thing that I was thinking if there was anyone good enough at programing might help some people earn those needed awards and all that is to set up an automatic bot to hold nightly trivia events or something similar. because I know for me I can not always be available on the set nights there are now and sometimes I get stuck waiting all week wishing for the next event to come around.

Kir

12-07-2007 09:34:43

The reason the leadership is interested in obtaining and holding onto new members is that is the only way to maintain the club. People leave the DB every week, so if we don't replace them with new people we wouldn't even maintain our current numbers, much less grow at all.

Also, the numbers the site gives you for how many people we have are technically correct, but not realistic. Right now it says this:

Total Membership: 3706
- Active Membership: 2642
- Positioned Members: 555


So according to this, we should have at least 500 active, participating club members. Now as a former Consul I can tell you that at the most you usually see 30 *truly* active members in your clan, multiply that by six clans...and you have 180 active members. Now, people who spend a lot of time on IRC and only consider you an active member if you frequently chat with your clan would probably place that number closer to 100 actives - and is far less than the 2,642 that the website claims as "active".

I don't think anyone is really worried about growing too large. Those of us who were around for the peak of the Emperor's Hammer remember easily more than 100 members, and I don't think the numbers themselves effected the Hammer in a negative way, if anything I think most members took a certain pride in the organizations size, and it allowed for extensive competitions that really were fun. (And yes, the EH inflated it's numbers too, but they still had more than 100 actives).

For now we are more worried about maintaining our current size and slowly growing - but this new info has us worried because it shows that a LOT of people join the DB every year, but VERY few stick around. So we're doing the hard part in getting them to our website and getting them to signup...but then we're losing them. If we can figure out why and correct that problem, even just increase our retention numbers by say 10%, then our club would be in a much more healthy position.

Anonymous

12-07-2007 12:40:33

The Envoys are what they have always been. They are a failure, and the initial concept from the beginning on the "revised Envoys" wasn't very good. I'm a firm believer that Clan and House Summits are the authority that assists new members. Adding Envoys to the mix to try and accomplish that was a bad idea. I know some envoys do their job well, and they should be commended for that, but looking at the greater picture I for one believe they should just be disbanded.

I agree with more promotion automation via the DB site to a degree. Not an automated system to fill out to promote you all the way to DJK, but something that holds their hands a bit more in the initial processes. Providing each Clan can put in their own input on this automated system, and that a new member doesn't get promoted just for clicking stuff on the DB website, it's a great idea.

In addition to this, there was a conversation last night in #Tarentum about the amount of ranks in the Brotherhood. I know they've been around a while and having "too many ranks" wasn't a problem in the past, but the whole ranking and promotion system these days feels awkward and disjointed. We have too many lowbie ranks, and too many upper ranks.

This isn't an in depth proposal or anything, but cutting back on our ranks would be a great idea. Something along the lines of this,

Apprentice
Jedi Hunter
Dark Jedi Knight
KP / SW / OP
KAP / SBM / OE
Dark Adept
Dark Jedi Master
Grand Master

You know? You have an Apprentice, he shows potential by doing what most new people dont and hits up JH. From then on he's an active, dedicated member to the Brotherhood who earns his DJK rank. Up some promotion requirements a bit later down the line, and go from their.

A lot of people probably wont be very fond of this idea. Even if it were implemented, it would mean some rank shifting that some individuals might have a problem with, "I'm a SBL I should be a DA with these new changes!". Ah well. Just an idea. =P

Andan Taldrya Marshall

12-07-2007 13:28:06

I'm not going to comment about the new ranks because I need some time to think about them - I hadn't considered something like that before and don't really know how I'd feel about it. The one thing that I do know for sure, though, is that if we start cutting ranks out then we're going to have to increase the time between promotions to compensate. Strictly number wise, KAP/SBM/OE (in that set up) is where DJK is in the current set up and if anyone wants people getting to that rank in the 6-8 months that it takes to get to DJK now, I think that they'll have more then a few people calling them crazy (as a side note - if we promote at the same rate with that number of ranks then anyone DJK+3 and above will be a GM).

Moving on...

One thing that I've seen a lot of in this thread is people generalizing what the Envoy's do and how they do it. When we're talking about the Envoys as a system we have to remember that while we have one Society of Envoys it - in its current incarnation - really just a lose confederation of people with the same general job in different houses. Each house/clan handles it's envoy slightly differently and we have to think about that. It's like saying that every Quaestor does the same exact thing in the same exact way; in reality the house summit has a set of jobs to do and it's up to the Quaestor to divide the work between himself, the Aedile, and (sometimes) the Envoy as he sees fit.

In my house, Archanis, the setup looks something like this: I, as Quaestor, hold final authority over the house (except where overruled by my Consul or Pro Consul), but my Aedile is given the authority to suggest and work on projects as he sees their need. Simple things don't need my approval but I ask that if he plans on taking on a larger project he talk to me first. Again, everything comes back to me so even if he starts a small project that I don't feel is good for the house I can nix that too. Both the Aedile and myself take care of all of the members, making sure that there's plenty of things for them to be doing for promotions and keeping them active, but we appoint an Envoy to concentrate on members from APP to JH because those are the people who we've seen need special attention. That isn't to say that my Aedile and I don't bother working with anyone under DJK, just that we have a person specifically appointed to pay extra attention to those people. So far this system has worked out pretty well for the houses that I've been on the summit for and I plan on using it until I find a better alternative.

Yeldarb Vohokou

12-07-2007 13:42:32

Well heres my view about the rank structure, agin just my view is all the ranks of knight and about should stay the same. leave em be same rights and priveliges that go with it. but there is way to many ranks up to knight that is just a bunch of bs. at least at knight and above you can expect some presigious positions. to me there is no difference from INI to ACO, and the PRT to JH. Yeah buy cutting back those ranks it may take longer between those promotions but they would still reach knight at the same time if they still had to follow the set guidlines for the requirments of becomming a knight. To me in my limited time spent here I equate a DJK as a Sergeant in the military one of the best ranks to have you get a whole lot of privaleges without all the hassles of the upper management. and I equate the INI-ACO as the non rates who are to new to be special. and the PRT-JH as the non commisioned officers who are the back bone of guiding those new joins around and keeping them active. so I am all for a rank revision on the lower end but leave out any automatic promotions. so since I am currently an ACO even though I have a promotion requiest in for PRT lump my but in with the non rates till its approved the place me in what ever we would make that next ranks. From there I will sit happy and content and continue to work on bettering myself and my clan and even teh brotherhood until I make knight then I will have to put out more work and continue from there.


And lastly i know this may not help one bit it may even hurt but it would solve the problems of those few who dont do what they are supposed to and that is demotions. I have searched over a 100 peoples Dooiers and looked at their historys to see what they did to get where and not once have i seen someone busted down. But think about it if you promoted someone to a rank and they blow ass at it take the rank away make it earn it again. it would wake them up and realize that if they want the joys of a rank they gotta earn the right to keep it.

Yeldarb Vohokou

12-07-2007 13:53:07

Oh yes one more Idea since we were talking about instant satisfaction, instead of lets saw promotions and awards maybe there would be a way we could set up tests of some sort that unlock special robe choices/colors, and for those that it applies to maybe more lightsaber designs. Go deeper in and add more to the individuals personal belongings from ships to houses to personal servant droids. kinda set up a payroll where every month certain ranks earn so much and can purchase stuff for their character. have some sort of a bank so those that dont spend right away can save it up earn a little interest on the money. and make this stuff all have some sort of graphic to represent it because that what sticks out to this modern crowd they gotta see it to believe it they cant just read that the have it in text. And I only say this because the graphics part of our site not counting the wiki is pretty low we see our clothing and sabers and medals but i read about some of the peoples personal gear and theres no picture of it in most cases so how would i know what it is.

Lucien

12-07-2007 14:17:11

Oh and,
So you need rewards for being an envoy, Lucien? That's what's been stopping everyone from doing their job? Stop the presses! 
If one does his job, any job for that matter, just to get a medal, he doesn't deserve the position ;)



Wow, it seems that things I say to try and help this discussion along are being taken out of context. What I was saying was that Envoys, who do probably one of the most important jobs in the DB are too often overlooked for the good work that they do. I can say this from experience. When I first became an Envoy, I did it because I felt it was the right thing to do. I still believe that. Now, what is wrong with being rewarded for doing an "exceptional" job? Member are regularly rewarded with Medals for doing above and beyond their normal duties. The problem is that the general population expects so much from the Envoys, it is difficult for them to go "above and beyond." What I was asking was if the system was still in place to reward those Envoys who do take pride in their work. Also note that I never once asked for or implied that I should receive ANYTHING for my work as an Envoy. I always thought that the work itself, if successful, was the reward I was getting out of it. Now, I am probably in the minority in this thinking, but I still say that good work should be rewarded, no matter what the original expectations.

Adien Falaut

12-07-2007 14:24:56

I agree with Karel if someone mearly takes the position for the awards they aren't doing it for the right reasons!

Personally any position in the DB is important and sound all be held in the intent of bettering the DB as a whole.

Xanos

12-07-2007 15:57:04

I haven't read everything so I'll probably be repeating things other people have said... but... oh well. :P

Envoys

If we're just talking about placing envoys under the authority of the Summits that I don't think is too much of a change because as Sarin said the Clan Summits basically have the final say on it all anyway. I would say the HM or some member of the DC whether it be a M:GM or P:DGM or whatever will still need to make sure to keep an eye on things though -- a six monthly review or whatever not being enough as this is something that the club as a whole has to keep its eye on otherwise it can all quickly come tumbling down because new members are the lifeblood that keep clans active and positions filled. This is one area where I would disagree in the verdict on KCB as I've never seen KCB as a position that "runs" anything I've always seen it as basically a P:HM by another name that "monitors" something -- and someone needs to monitor it.

I do think we need to be careful not to simply make a scapegoat out of KCB and say "now it's in the Summits hands it'll be better" because if the whole problem was that the Summits were doing it anyway and that KCB isn't needed then we're actually not changing anything -- just getting rid of the scapegoat meaning in six months time we'll have to accept the reality that already exists that the problem is wider than just the KCB or SOE. So I would hope this is going to mean more than just "getting rid of the SOE" as that won't change anything.

This is where I would hope at least a M:HM or something at least takes over in keeping track of how things are doing -- as it's too important a thing to simply leave up to individual CONs who may not give new member intake the importance it deserves. While it's easy to go "then you fire the CON" six months after they started slacking that's a bit late as the damage is already done -- and "but we'd realise sooner!" means it'll need someone monitoring it, thus the point. :P I hate to be blunt but the reality I've always found is Summits tend to care more about their actual existing active membership than the new ones who may never do anything.

The impression quickly skimming what's been said has given me is the envoys aren't actually being gotten rid of. If so, that's fine. Before talking about pushing their duties onto Summit members though I think people should try and remember how many Summit members already struggle to do their existing jobs. I want my Quaestor to run competitions. I don't want them to be messing around with the Apprentices while the rest of us get bored. That's the Envoys job. Let them worry about that just like the GM lets the HM worry about the INIs while he gets on with keeping the rest of us existing members happy. So, while I said above that I often feel Clan Summits don't care about new members as much as the active ones, I also feel that's actually somewhat understandable given that they should care more about the active ones as it's their job to be the ones running the competitions and things not wasting their time talking to people who never answer back. It's a reality of life that just like how in school teachers usually care more about the teachers pet or their prize pupil than they do the people who sit at the back doing nothing, it's very hard for any QUA to truly give as much time to the ones who don't respond as he does to the ones who are hyper active. In the middle of a GJW what's a QUA more likely to care about? Making his existing members active so the clan does well? Or spending all his time emailing people who never reply?

It's easy to say "they should do both!" but that means finding people. Finding people from the half a dozen DJKs who have actually made it that far in the last year. That isn't going to happen. Decent Summit members, by virtue of the DJK figures if nothing else, are not in infinite supply. The closest to "they should do both!" that I think we should be going is to be talking about renaming RM to ENV on the roster and letting the RM/ENVs handle this stuff on behalf of the AED and QUA. IF the AED or QUA think they can do it themselves wonderful but they should not be denied the ability to delegate if they don't want to have to handle it themselves. Not every QUA has the same skill as people who manage to make it to the DC. Most have enough trouble doing their existing jobs. If every QUA was that good we wouldn't need AEDs or CONs. The club has enough trouble finding enough QUAs as it is (see: number of third houses that have gone bye-bye) so making the job of a QUA even harder would just see more houses facing the axe due to it being even harder to find ones who could handle everything themselves.

The talk about cutting back on the number of ranks doesn't actually worry me. I've always thought we make it too hard to get to DJM. I'd much rather the average joe who is super active was able to get DJM eventually, albeit it'd still take a long time, but I'd at least like it to be possible whereas currently I doubt it can be done at all. Sure, a few have made it to DA or so, but how many years did that take? More than most people stay in the DB I imagine and most have probably at least been PCON or something. Even two or three years people would have been complaining about Muz getting DJM within three years. I think it's much more sensible to see it being possible to get DJM in 3 years. If you tell a random APP it'll take them six or seven they aren't even going to begin to bother with it -- as that's a huge span of time and nobody knows if they're going to stick in the same job for that long let alone what is to a new member a little online club. I've always taken the view the Dark Council would still be special as they'd still be able to get their Golden Lightsabers and whatever which a normal person couldn't. I've always tended to feel we don't take advantage of the power of the word "Master" as by the time most people reach DA they're normally past caring about rank anymore so it's almost wasted on them. Plus DC members could still strive to become "Lord" or whatever.

To take my rank as an example, I'd almost be happy for DA to be "DJM", DJM to be "DJM Class II", DP to be "DJM Class III" or something. I suppose it depends on who you are though. I'm too much of an EU person so terms such as DA or DP don't do anything for me. The only one that meant anything to me really was DJM, I don't really care about being an "Elder" so whether I was something more generic like Level 3 DJM or something more wordy like a Dark Prophet doesn't really bother me either way. The only thing I've cared about since getting DJM is "Sith Lord".

I imagine back when most people were video game buffs they didn't really care and their CF count was their life. These days I somewhat wonder if half the problem is KOTOR bringing more awareness to the average joe and making them think we're a bit dull compared to all the flashy titles like Lord and Darth and Emperor and whatever they might be able to earn in that.

Automation

I skimmed Jac's post quickly. It reminds me of the old days where I was confused by computer geek jargon. :$ I am again confused by computer jargon. :P

Anyway, only thing I feel needs to be kept in mind with increased automation is it needs to be more than "play x JA matches and get GRD" but I gather from what I skimmed that isn't the idea.

When Sildrin was Quaestor of HLK last year she did something similar to this. It wasn't 100% automated as she still actually had to go in and tick the box herself which allowed a degree of human interaction (read: it prevented people completely abusing the system and getting to DJK in 2 hours) but it meant people could see where they were at in their promotion trials.

Provided we're talking something like that I think it's a good idea. If it meant people could log in and basically see a bar across the screen that gradually filled up as they did things that'd be good. The only thing I wouldn't want is 100% automation - i.e. before it passes the final bar and changes to "You qualify for a promotion!" the Quaestor still having to actually do something in regard to approving it. I always have felt promotions need at least some degree of human input to prevent abuse as no system is perfect. I have seen lots of them over the years and some smartass always manages to find a loophole and abuse it and then try and tie the Summit's hands behind their backs and force them into giving the person a rediculously easy promotion. Maybe up to PRT or GRD with 100% automation but after that I would say 95% automation at the most so the Quaestor at least can provide the member with one or two more personalised things to do.

It was more or less what I used to do as Consul. The majority of things were pretty much rubber stamped (albeit not "automated") but I retained the right to set the last task so if someone had completely taken the piss and abused the system they could expect me to set them something god awful to ensure they didn't get promoted in 24 hours. It always provided such a deliciously evil feeling to burst someone's bubble when they had tried to get DJK in a single day. >:)

The only thing I would be unsure of is if whether all we'd achieve would be to delay the problem so rather than a bunch of uninterested ACOs we'd just have a bunch of uninterested DJKs. I suppose if the automated trials still took long enough it may at least keep them around long enough to find something they wanted to stay for long term. It does make me think though of all the times we've played with the SA, sometimes reducing the ranks it gives, at others increasing, etc. It's never really seemed to make a huge difference as the only one people seem to care about is DJK.

This is where it somewhat goes back to the rank issue. I often wonder if maybe we should try and make the under DJK ranks sound a bit more interesting and less random and generic. "Acolyte" I like and people are probably familiar with the term "Sith acolyte" or the "Sith acolyte" class in the RPG games and stuff. Protector though is kind of meh. I'd rather be an Acolyte. :P

Even if we didn't go as far as different "Levels" or Rites or Classes or whatever of DJM, I partially wonder if something like that would at least work for the ranks under DJK. Though then again I imagine it'd still only be a cosmetic thing as again most people wouldn't care if they were Guardian, Jedi Hunter, Level 4 Acolyte or whatever else, the only thing they'd care about would be reaching DJK. Once you get to the top end though a rank like "Dark Prophet" isn't special because of the name it's special because of who else has it and what work went into it. With that in mind, it's why it wouldn't bother me if DJM was easier to achieve or if my rank still was technically speaking "DJM" but just a "higher grade" of it, whatever that would mean or be called.

Muz Ashen

12-07-2007 19:51:19

Just a quick note:

I always thought that the rank of Knight was the permanent rank precisely because it took dedication, time, and energy to get.

If we handed it out like candy, it becomes less worthwhile, and we'll probably see people 'giving up' on the DB...just at higher ranks.

Tarax Kor

12-07-2007 20:11:58

Just a quick note:

I always thought that the rank of Knight was the permanent rank precisely because it took dedication, time, and energy to get.

If we handed it out like candy, it becomes less worthwhile, and we'll probably see people 'giving up' on the DB...just at higher ranks.




Not to demean the rank, other Clans, or people in such positions but...for those members that are DJK and already heading up to DJK+1 in under 10 months...it's already made the rank less worthwhile.

Anshar

12-07-2007 20:17:35

Goat, you long winded goat :P

To provide some clarification. I will, as Headmaster, be providing oversight to the clans. Jac's tracking tool makes it pretty easy for me to look at all the clans individually or at once. In fact, I'll be doing my first check this weekend as sort of a start to the new system.

I've asked the clans to provide me with brief status reports every two weeks (give or take). This report is compiled by one of the Envoys and it is really the clan's feedback and perceptions of how it is doing with new members. I also get to watch for made up results (ex: an envoy claims that they've e-mailed member A and received replies, but member A is still sitting at APP- I'm going to ask questions).

The Envoy job can be done by a summit member, so long as they are willing to put that extra effort into it. I remember what its like to be an AED, QUA, PCON, and CON. Concentrating on new members is tough, though not impossible. Clans can have whomever they want function in the Envoy role, but there are expectations of that person.

If it gets to the point where I myself can't give the job the proper attention it needs, I'll turn it over to someone else. They will be KCB, or magistrate- whatever we're calling it at the time. So, there will be oversight by the HM. This is akin to the MAA covering promos and awards, and JST overseaing judicial issues.

I don't see the Envoy system as a failure, but as a work in progress. The most recent incarnation may not have worked out.

Sephiroth Kali

13-07-2007 00:07:16

Not to demean the rank, other Clans, or people in such positions but...for those members that are DJK and already heading up to DJK+1 in under 10 months...it's already made the rank less worthwhile.




Is it that the rank has become less worthwhile, or are we getting worse members? How do you know? I think i8t takes more for a member to advance quickly than for them to take a month off etween promotions.

I agree with Karel if someone mearly takes the position for the awards they aren't doing it for the right reasons!

Personally any position in the DB is important and sound all be held in the intent of bettering the DB as a whole.


While I agree with you on both points, We have to accept that things don't work that way. And members in any position deserve to be rewarded for their service. There was a time when SoI's were awarded to Envoy's who performed well, while I have seen older Envoy's who have recieved them, I have never seen one awarded for such action. I have been in 1 Envoy Challenge, and I didn't even know until it was over.

I also agree with what Xanos said about promotions, I've seen way too many DA/DJM ect; who don't give a damn about rank, and are perfectly content in there current place. I tell you, there are positions that I dream of attaining, but I've been here two years. There are those of you who have been DA for two years. A year is a long time to devote to a online club. Even more so when you are in a leadership position, when members come to you with issues. Maybe some of you have forgotten. Some people in this club are in their early 20's, and they are expected to do expected to act with the wisdom of people twice their age.

Oberst

13-07-2007 03:50:15

I'm just curious, because I don't recall this actually being defined, it's been hinted at without actually being stated...

But, what is our selling point?

Why should new members stick around? You can talk about the Envoys, the time it takes to get to DJK, the hoops and tricks new members have to go through, but in the end what are we selling to people?

Everyone here can answer the question, "Why are you here in the DB?" but what about for anyone who glances at the site, stumbling from StumbleUpon or randomness (You won't believe how many sites I didn't think existed, until I tried putting the name into FF and ended it with .com, .org or .net)? Is it for gaming? They can do that in any other number of gaming clans out there, and probably get more of a challenge from the impressions I've been given as an outside observer. Is it the chance to roleplay being an incipient Evil Overlord? You can do that in Knights of the Old Republic or Star Wars Galaxies, too. Is it the chance to write Star Wars fanfiction and Mary Sue ourselves in? Ok, so maybe that one happens: and it's really bad, and needs to be improved upon at some point as we go on. Are we offering a social atmosphere for people to socialize and be as geeky as they want, whether open or in the geek closet (it's the one with the X-Men poster and postcards from E3 on the outside, not the one with the feather boa - although, I think Trev's has both)? That is, really, the only benefit I can see for joining the DB (I wonder if Arcona still holds a grudge against me for drawing Kelric away for a few weeks, if that, while he sought out tutoring in Physics (I still happily offer to tutor Tar members in the Hard Sciences [Mathematics > Physics > Chemistry > Biology])).

And that's not a bad thing. But, then if that is the product we're selling, how do we market it, how do we retain customers (brand loyalty) and how do we distribute it in a manner pleasing to those customers? If that isn't our selling point, then what is? We cannot hope to lure people in and keep them here unless we figure out what it is we're offering.

Xanos

13-07-2007 05:28:36

Goat, you long winded goat :P
Yeah... that's what happens when I come here to post something after just finishing an essay. :P

I agree though that if a Summit member wants to do it, that's fine. I just always get uncomfortable when some people start to talk about getting rid of the separate job completely -- simply as it'd cost us some good QUAs who are good at what they do but who might not be good at that.

I do actually quite like the changing RM to ENV idea though. That was a nice one of whoever mentioned that as I think some Clans already basically put their ENVs in the RM position and RM is largely worthless.
Is it that the rank has become less worthwhile, or are we getting worse members? How do you know? I think i8t takes more for a member to advance quickly than for them to take a month off etween promotions.
I'd probably agree with Sephiroth in that it at least has more dimensions beyond than that it's just been devalued. The sheer fact only ten or whatever it was people even reached DJK shows that. The few who did make it that far may have done it pretty quickly but when you've only got one or two decent new members per Clan it's no real surprise they get noticed, appointed to Summit jobs and promoted faster or whatever else.
I also agree with what Xanos said about promotions, I've seen way too many DA/DJM ect; who don't give a damn about rank, and are perfectly content in there current place.
Yeah, that was basically my point.

Much as it pains the egotistical part of me to say: we're too harsh at the bottom end and too liberal at the top.

I wouldn't want to see hundreds of DJMs running around but I'd like a QUA to be able to tell ACO Joe that if he works hard he might get DJM in two or three years. Right now though what can he say? "Maybe if you get DGM"? It doesn't feel as achievable. I know when I started out I never thought I'd reach DJM, all I ever cared about at first was DJK.

That brings me to what Muz said though that what new members care about SHOULD be DJK... but... they don't. I'm simply at a loss there. Anakin Skywalker was a Padawan for 11 or 12 years. Becoming a Knight isn't meant to happen overnight but people seem to expect it. This is where I think our options either end up being making DJK easier to get (and by virtue of that, in turn making DJM easier to get) or else somehow making the sub-DJK ranks more attractive so an ACO doesn't feel like a n00b who can't wield a lightsaber but who feels like they're worth something. After all, Anakin wasn't a "n00b" in AOTC.

I don't know how to make the sub-DJK ranks more attractive without cutting out how many ranks there are though. I suppose in the old days the SA ranks didn't matter and we only really had GRD-JH-DJK. Spending months at GRD or JH though I imagine wouldn't work with most people these days. Medals should be a good stop gap as people progress through the rank but I just don't know if people care about a "Dark Cross" anymore the same way they do going "I'm a Dark Jedi Knight!". Is there something other than rank and medals? I'm not really sure. Force Powers maybe? I don't know. I know I would see appeal in a "Clan rank" alongside your "Dark Jedi rank" but I've no idea if a new member would. If you could start out as an Associate of Sadow, progress to Disciple of Sadow, then Follower of Sadow, eventually leading to Son of Sadow or something. I don't know, I'm just coming up with random names, but I imagine I could see the appeal in that myself. Problem is, I imagine ACO Joe wouldn't give a damn as he'd have no reason to like these random generic titles.

It's why I almost feel like just making it into levels. You'd have five trials per rank or something, as you completed each one you'd just go up from ACO1 to ACO2 to ACO 3 etc and watch the little bar on your admin page go across then after ACO5 do your knight trials and end up as DJK1. Problem with that though is I've no idea if that'd work either. It'd make it easier to make ACO sound flashier rather than just generic n00b rank #3 but it'd mean a whole different culture to appreciate that ACO5 was way more prestigious than ACO1 which would be more prestigious than APP5. I just have no idea if it'd seem too boring or if it'd have the appeal of being like an experience bar that made you feel like you were edging closer to the next "real" rank.

I sometimes wonder whether the sheer volume of ranks "appears" like too much of a barrier to people. It's just impossible to really know. I know it only takes six months or so to reach DJK, does a new member look at how many ranks are in between and give up hope somewhere in the middle?
Why should new members stick around? You can talk about the Envoys, the time it takes to get to DJK, the hoops and tricks new members have to go through, but in the end what are we selling to people?
I was thinking that last night actually when I logged off. That maybe we're missing the real issue and talking about the Envoys failing when perhaps the real problem has nothing to do with the Envoys, Summits, ranks, or anything else, but simply "why do people want to be here?"

Which I think has been a problem ever since we went Multi-Order.

Now, don't get me wrong, I was and remain firmly in the belief that sectioning members off by gaming platform wouldn't work these days. People simply don't fit into boxes as neatly anymore. However the one thing Order Platforms did give was more solid "direction" because people knew what they were signing up for.

We may not be able to realistically divide people up by ACC, RC, EAW, BF, JA or whatever else but there does seem to be a need for more clear direction as to why someone has joined the DB. I was talking to someone about this last night and thinking through exactly what someone would do if they joined as an APP today... the outcome of that little thought experiment was that in all honesty, I don't think I'd be interested in the DB if I joined today.

This becomes a question of why the DB exists though to which I'm at a loss. As much as it may have been a gaming club once I don't think that really is true anymore. How old is JA now? It's like XWA was when we left the EH, it's got a solid fanbase but it's not getting any younger. Maybe TFU next year will change that but that's still a year away.

The community is good but IRC isn't very widely known. I'd often like to see a simple clearing up of the forums to try and make them more appealing. I read theforce.net forums daily, I only visit these once every now and then. It's not even as if Star Wars communities are disappearing as theforce.net is still active with posters. Once upon a time I'd have written off the forums because of IRC as the main form of communication but I don't even think that's true anymore as IRC isn't as popular as it once was. There rarely seem to be new faces on it at least.

In short though Oberst makes a very good point. Until we work out what we're marketing we won't ever market it effectively no matter what structure we have. I just must admit myself even that I don't really know what we're marketing... I can describe it in vague terms but not clearly enough to make it sound appealing to someone who knows nothing about us.

Yeldarb Vohokou

13-07-2007 12:38:25

Xanos and a few others asked what does this club Market. Well here is what I percieved being probably the newest member of this organization taking part in the talks here.

#1 a place to learn more about the dark side, ranging from history, force powers, to customs associated with it.

But we do not hold the monopoly on this since it can be found elsewhere all over the internet. just google it.

#2 a gaming club for classic and stricting star wars games.

But again we hold no monopoly here but what we do have is a club witha wide rangeof games mostare strictly dedicated to one game. or one type of game ie the wing series as a whole or the jedi knight games as a whole or galaxies.

#3 and online roleplay environment about star wars

again no monopoly here since there are a few others otu there with a firm foundation some for light side members others for dark side and others for just basically the star ars universe.

Those are just the 3 biggest things that came to my mind and even though we are not the only place to goto in order to get those selling points we are one of the very very few that combines them all in opne spot s members dont have to join 3 different clubs to get all those goals. I am sure there is one other selling point we have but honestly cant say we have it and that is a close tight knit and friendly environment because aside from a small handful of people out side my Clan or house the only people here I know are the those inside my house. But witht he upcommign GJW that might change.




but this here is the one selling point that does need to be expanded on because if we want people, they need to beable tocome to a club and visually see their possesions more then just a Cloak, saber and medals. I recently signed up a friend of mine who I play Galaxies with, and he has been busy with work yes but the few times he has logged in here he hasnt done much since he doesnt like all the reading involved, and has nothing visual to see. so no matter how friendly the people are what games we play, or any of that hes not gonna come online here to as i would say read book. Putup some pictures, expand more on the visual media. maybe add some more choices in robe customization for each rank, or for completing certain events.

Macron Sadow

13-07-2007 13:55:21

Some of my thoughts:

I have had success as an Envoy, and we have a good one right now that has indeed helped members out. Thus, the society is not meaningless in my opinion.

The low rate of members that reach DJK is a fuction of several things.

One, it is a tough rank to achieve, and many people just don't (or won't) do the time and the work.

Xanos wrote: "Much as it pains the egotistical part of me to say: we're too harsh at the bottom end and too liberal at the top."

I agree with that.

Two, you also have to factor in the MAA here. Different MAA's in the past have had different feelings as to what contitutes a DJK-worthy individual, in my opinion.



And "Why do people want to be here?" Great question. To have fun, hopefully.

Halcyon

13-07-2007 13:58:10

A point on making things more "visible". There is continuing work on that, but it is extremely time consuming, hence why nothing is "announced" until basically the time of release. For these sorts of additions, you need coders and graphical artisits dedicated to getting this done. If you look around or ask around and find out how much it would cost to actually get these things done, you'll see why it isn't as simple as it seems.

If we had more coders willing and able to actually spend time on things, sure it would get done faster (and advanced coding, not simple html :P). While many people may have the skills, most can't or won't put in the time required. The same goes with the graphical work. These are specialized skills requiring countless hours of work. The amount of people willing to put in that effort for the club is very limited.

So basically, there are a lot of different things planned to make the entire DB more interactive and having things be more visible for each member in terms of "extras". But if people want it to come faster, they'll have to pitch in and help

Tarax Kor

13-07-2007 14:18:57

Some of my thoughts:

I have had success as an Envoy, and we have a good one right now that has indeed helped members out. Thus, the society is not meaningless in my opinion.





A society is not needed for an envoy, or for the work that an envoy does. that's a new level of politicking there that's not needed. In my opinion, the AED should be doing most of the Envoy work anyhow. If certain clans decide to go with Envoys, then it's their prerogative on how the Envoy should be doing their job.

The Society itself just made things harder to control, and added an extra layer of bureaucracy that was not needed. You did great as an envoy? All the power to you and your Clan, not to the Society that had no real power, but just stood int he way of things.

RevengeX

13-07-2007 16:08:29

I started drafting up this post somewhere after reading a post on page two of this thread and then I scanned Xanos' first post on page three - so, I apologize if some of this has already been covered by someone.

Is there a problem?

Honestly, I do not see a problem at all concerning these statistics. Referring to the "Brotherhood Advancement Report" compiled by Anshar and Siyavash, from December 1, 2005 to May 31, 2006, approximately only 6.6% of total new recruits made it to PRT and above. The average percentage of members PRT+ from Sarin's report is 7.666%. Maybe I screwed up my math, but, 7.666 looks like it's more than 6.6.

I've always thought we make it too hard to get to DJM. I'd much rather the average joe who is super active was able to get DJM eventually, albeit it'd still take a long time, but I'd at least like it to be possible whereas currently I doubt it can be done at all. Sure, a few have made it to DA or so, but how many years did that take? More than most people stay in the DB I imagine and most have probably at least been PCON or something. Even two or three years people would have been complaining about Muz getting DJM within three years. I think it's much more sensible to see it being possible to get DJM in 3 years. If you tell a random APP it'll take them six or seven they aren't even going to begin to bother with it -- as that's a huge span of time and nobody knows if they're going to stick in the same job for that long let alone what is to a new member a little online club.


I completely agree with Xanos here. We, as an organization, made the journey to Dark Jedi Knight, and all the Equite/Elder ranks, an extremely difficult one; and now that these implicit "guidelines" have wormed their way into the DJB, it would be doubly difficult to get them out and revise them. Only those who truly outshine their peers will make it to the rank of Dark Jedi Knight, and possibly, beyond. When someone joins the DJB, they will browse the site, look through dossiers, check out what the DJB offers, etc... and they will see members who have been a part of the DJB for over ten years. Ten years... that might be more than half their age!

Unless a new member becomes very involved in the DJB, he/she will lose interest. As others suggested, "automated" promotion "checklists" would not be a bad idea for the lower Journeyman ranks (APP - GRD). I do not know about other Houses/Clans, but Clan Scholae Palatinae sends weekly/bi-weekly emails to all Journeymen not registered in the Master/Student Program with lists of suggestions that a member can do to reach a level that qualifies for promotion. These emails are working very well and it is obvious that some members are reading over them.

Going back to Sarin's statistics and why they might be "low"...

There is a plethora of qualitative and quantitative "variables" to consider: Clan Size, House Size, Member-House/Clan Compatibility, Annoyance Level, Amount of Time Available for DJB Activities, Abilities of House/Clan Mentors, Variety/Amount of House/Clan Activities, Individual Likes/Abilities, Amount of Clan/House In-fighting, Available Clan/House Positions, and I'm sure there are several others that I do not want to list.

The aforementioned "variables" are scattered across the grid; some depending on the Clan, some on the House, some on the DJB, but most of these variables depend on the member - more specifically, the member's personality.

One particular variable I would like to inspect is the amount of "Available Clan/House Positions". Generally, those in positions are scanned more thoroughly by superiors and have the opportunity to become more involved in the organization - thus having an edge over their peers when it comes to promotions. The availability of these positions varies from Clan-to-Clan and House-to-House.

More than most people stay in the DB I imagine and most have probably at least been PCON or something.


If a member is appointed to a position, the member will probably have more interest to stay with the DJB while they continue to carry that position.

"Annoyance Level" - Everyone who has been/is in a leadership position knows what I am writing about. "How annoying is the member?" The "annoyance level" of each member helps dictate the House/Clan Summits' attitude towards that person. (Yea, I know we're supposed to help everyone, but sometimes, if the member is very annoying, it is a lot more difficult to become willing to help/award that person. I am not indicating that members today are more annoying than members that joined three years ago, I'm just offering an explanation of what I mean.)

"Amount of Time Available for DJB Activities" - To be promoted to Dark Jedi Knight, one generally has to be outstandingly active - maintaining higher activity levels than 95% of other members. This one depends on the member *and* the House/Clan/DJB. "Is the member motivated and dedicated enough to push aside time *especially* for DJB activities?" I generally discourage allowing the DJB to interfere with "offline life," but if we want more members to reach DJK, I suppose I should start spreading messages of "Forget Hanging Out With Friends! DJB FTW!" :P

Who is at fault?

It is not the fault of the "promotion process" or House/Clan leaders not looking over members' work. Nor do I think the Society of Envoys, as a whole, is at fault. Blaming the Society of Envoys - as a system - seems, to me, like blaming President "Jee-Dubya" for the September 11th, 2001 attacks; they weren't his fault - slowly, over centuries, the United States had become a distasteful country through the eyes of many other nations and groups.

Another big issue however, and one not easily rectified, are all of the leaders themselves. A big issue I've noticed is that some Envoys and other House and Clan leaders just don't like to communicate. I hear a lot of "no one reads the e-mails anyways" or "it won't matter", etc, etc... People are also just plain lazy and won't try and stay in contact with newer members.


One thing that I like to stress, and one thing that I am also continuing to improve for myself, is communication amongst the chain of command at the House and Clan level. Those who "just don't like to communicate" should not consider themselves leaders and should be removed before further damage can be done.

I dont think that any RP factor should be mandatory which you can see the higher in the ranks you go the more you must complete some RP stuff. If a member wanted to come in a level strictly though gaming so be it that would be fine with me. My only argument earlier was retention numbers and the whining of only 9 people making DJK in the last year. Can someone please tell me why that is a bad thing. by gaining rank it only allows for more RP options like maing your own saber and getting more choices of clothing but in no way does that happer those that want to come in a join stricting to play games with us.


The "RP factor" is not mandatory. It is strongly encouraged, but, as Yeldarb mentioned, not everyone likes to roleplay - and that is why HAD, thanks to the hard work of Cooch, will be revising promotion guidelines so that people who do not want to roleplay will not have to roleplay to attain a rank. I think Crix stated something about people getting stuck on a task somewhere on page two.

As a former Envoy who served in the Society for a little over a year, and as a member who took approximately one and a half years to reach DJK, I repeat, "I do not see a problem."

And, let the flaming begin! :P

Oberst

13-07-2007 16:13:26

Mac : "to have fun" is great and all, but that's not exactly something you can market. I mean, people go to Disneyland/world to have fun, sure, but more than just the fact that it's Disneyland is marketed. The chance for kids to "meet" the various characters, the nostalgia of the old rides and the thrill of the new ones, etc. Same for any amusement park. Same for a lot of our entertainment venues, but "having fun," while the end result, isn't what you're selling. There has to be something more, something individual and something worth someone taking the time out to take a look at the product we're offering.

Khobai

13-07-2007 16:40:43

I think revising Battleteams and upgrading the position of Battleteam CMDR would also help clans integrate new members and keep them active.

1) Less members per battleteam: limit battleteams to 8-10 people at most. then we have a much better leader:member ratio and it creates more entry level leadership positions.

2) Give battleteam leaders more responsibility over their battleteams. A BTL should be the equivalent to AED, although their authority wouldnt extend beyond their own respective battleteam.

3) Emphasize the importance of Battleteams by making them the standard competition unit instead of Clans. All major competitions like GJWs, RoS, etc... should use scoring systems that track each Battleteam and award points to a Clan based on how each of its Battleteams performs overall.

Yeldarb Vohokou

13-07-2007 18:57:33

Khobai I could not agree with you more about battle teams. I am not a member of one yet but I thought thats wat they were for, To compete with that team ultimatly helping your house/clan. But reading over some old competition reports i found I have noticed that a house may have several battle teams but any time they competed it was a mix and mach of all sorts of members. So that tells me people where just joining battle teams to say they joined, and to fullfill some sort of promotion requirement.

Furthering this topic I think a house should also sort their battle teams into specialities ie, one for gaming events, one for trivia, one for fictional writing, and then maybe have one for the not so great at an event but will compete in everthing teams.

And a note to Rev I appreciate you sharing my thoughts about not seeing a problem with it taking forever to get to knight. I repeat myself when I say knight should be a long term goal not a short term goal. even if that means moving knight way further up the ranks. I may not bethe best RP person out there, hell just read my failed attempt in the ACC to qualify but at leas I try, and I think it should bea privaledge not a right for a person to own their own lightsaber. I would really like to be able to have my own saber, but I will be more then pissed off if they make it easy to get. thats the problem with me is if a game gets to easy i stop playing I like the challenge. By making it easier to get a saber adn get a rank to me thats like using cheat codes in a game and should be frowned upon.

But also Rev sorry bro I gotta to contradict your statement about RP being not madatory because it is to advance. Acharacter sheet, person history, a wiki page, submit so many fictional pieces to the dark voice is all under the RP catagory. and after a certain rank it will be impossible to get promoted without partaking in at least one of those activities. Event hough I will still do them I think they should never be forced, But also on that note if you are not forced and do not do them I dont think you should be able to hold certain positions designed for such ranks so esentially I think it should be possible to reach the top end and hold a rank but you will never get the authority to run a clan or house without being proficient in all aspects of the game. and I say that because I like many high leveled People here do not give two [Expletive Deleted]s about a rank. A rank is just something more to have to remember means nothing to me, but what does mean something to me is a billit/position. So I would be more then happy to never ever get past protector as long as some day I was afforded the operunity to run a house or maybe evena clan. I say that because being able to lead people and assist them and watch tehm grow in my eyesis way cooler and far more enjoyable then being able to shoot lightning out of my hands or strip force powers from a person in a fiction fight.

And I know this probably is not the place to ask its more geared towards the DBPA but it deals with gaming and why is JA, JO, and the tie fighter games weighed so much more highly when it comes to beign able to get clusters of fire and other needed things for later promotion the Galaxies. There is not a single aspect of those games that can not be completed thouh SWG alone. granted I know not everyone is willing or able to play that game on their system, nor would want to do to the way SOE really messed the game. But not only does that game allow the aspects of brotherhood gamming but it also ties in alot of RP things that we do but can actually act them out with visuals.

Tolter

13-07-2007 21:04:38

Envoy's should take a test and a probationary period before actually starting the job to ensure they are actually qualified. same thing with the ACC, you have to qualify yourself to get into it by showing that you belong. why can't we do the same for the Envoys? It might not be the whole system that is flawing, but it could be the individuals.

DJK should be difficult to get. But it shouldn't be that difficult that people lose intrest in trying to get.

Also getting Masters at an earlier rank and making the MSP uniformed throughout the whole DB could possibly be beneficial since its a 1-1 ratio instead of 1 Envoy per however many you have.

Yeldarb Vohokou

14-07-2007 02:09:28

How an you possibly test personal interaction. After all is that not what the envoys do is talk with people and make them feel welcome give a few pointers on what to do for the next rank and send them a few links that if your smart enough you can usually find on your own? There is really no way I can forsee testing that but what I can see if those in charge of the envoys watching them cafefully and relieve those not doing their job. Thats just my views you cant blame whole group because it is never everyones fault, and oyu cant be afraid to take back anything you give out if its no longerdeserved.

Andan Taldrya Marshall

14-07-2007 03:06:32

Envoy's should take a test and a probationary period before actually starting the job to ensure they are actually qualified. same thing with the ACC, you have to qualify yourself to get into it by showing that you belong. why can't we do the same for the Envoys? It might not be the whole system that is flawing, but it could be the individuals.


The training of each envoy is up to the clans and houses right now. I can tell you that Taldryan does a good job of training its envoys; we usually appoint them as an Assistant Envoy for a few months to work with a small group of members before we let them lose on the entire house. I can't speak for any other clan's training programs, though. You may be on to something here, how envoys are trained may have a lot to do with the issue at hand.

Also getting Masters at an earlier rank and making the MSP uniformed throughout the whole DB could possibly be beneficial since its a 1-1 ratio instead of 1 Envoy per however many you have.



I've never been a fan of master/student programs, I've seen them tried a few different times and I've never seen great results from them. One of the major problems is the disparity between DJKs, Equites and Elders who can train and Journeymen who need training. Lets take House Archanis, my own house, for example. Including myself, there are 6 people ranked DJK and above and 17 ranked JH and below. If everyone who was able to take a student did, then most of us would have to take 3 students to get everyone involved in the program. There goes your 1 on 1 interaction. You're probably thinking that 3 on 1 is better then 17 on one right now, and I don't blame you. Think about it this way, though: spreading the work out over 6 different people means that you have that many more variables involved in the training (how much time the master has to spend with their students, the master's knowledge of the DB, things like that) which can lead to one group of students getting better training then another. If you have one envoy then the training is uniform (and if it's uniformly bad then the envoy can be replaced), in addition equitable promotions is a big thing now and having one person handling the training would eliminate the difference in promotions that we're going to have simply because one master thinks that two things are about the same amount of work while another master doesn't. I don't want anybody to misunderstand me - I'm not saying that master/student programs can't work - just that I've never seen the caliber of results from them that would make it, in my opinion, seem worth dealing with the problems that I've pointed out.

Alanna

14-07-2007 06:48:00

I haven't read all the thread because you guys all write too much :P

Couple of points:

* I don't think %of members to DJK is a fair way to judge Envoys. I certainly don't see myself as solely responsible for getting a new Ekky member to DJK. I help them with the first few ranks, answer all the little questions they have, and then hand them over to the BTLs/AED/QUA as they head towards JH/DJK. I still have contact with them, but by that time they're much more integrated into the house (and normally BTLs in their own right) and I no longer see them as solely my charges.

* The only MSP I've seen work was when I had Ricco as my A:Env and had him as the M to a couple of active Ss. MSPs tend to fail due to the lack of activity from Ms, so having just one active M who I knew could be relied upon made the system work, and freed me up to spend more time with the other newbies.

* Autopromotions really mess up clan promo systems :(

Morgan

14-07-2007 08:18:51

Wernt Envoy's originally created as spies within clans or something? But yeah, Envoy's never really effected me, and i was a JH for 11 months, although, albeit a some what lazy one with activity spurts. I havnt really read post of the topic, and in all honesty, i dont even really know what Envoys DO. I tell a lie, i read Alanna's post, and as some one whos errm been through there recently (Like a year and a half ago :P), i didnt see much of an envoy in my tenure being below DJK.

I do agree with Sarin though (I just briefly skimmed the first page). I also heard about the few DJK's we get.

I think we should make less of the ranks before DJK, and more of DJK itself. As i've said to other people, and probably in most channels, people dont join to be an Obelisk Templar, when people think of STar Wars they think Stormtroopers and Jedi. So it is an important thing, getting people to DJK.

Thats my two cents.

Oh and <3 Kir. Good idea to put this up on the MB. Its nice to see everyone having a say ^_^

Xanos

14-07-2007 08:22:59

Khob's touches on something important. I've always felt Battleteams have the potential to be stronger communities than Houses (in practice as Houses have shrunk it's become less true but in theory it still is). I still see the House and Clan as the main entity but usually everyone has their own little social clique of friends anyway -- which is basically what a BT should be. How many "close" friends do most people have? I expect I probably only talk to a dozen or so of the same people on a daily basis.

However I myself just hate the word. I don't want to be in a "Battleteam" as fictionally it doesn't work for me. I've always wanted to rename them "Circles" on the basis the word "Circle" is much more neutral and can be whatever you want. If you wanted it to be a starfighter unit, fine, whereas if you just wanted it to be a bunch of wierdos who got together once a week to medidate on the Force, fine too.

I fit into the wierdo mystics group rather than the starfighter pilot group.

The idea of giving BTLs more AED like authority is one I've always been torn on. Part of me thinks making BTLs more important and cutting out AED itself would be a good thing, the other part of me doesn't. I just don't really know I guess.

But also Rev sorry bro I gotta to contradict your statement about RP being not madatory because it is to advance. Acharacter sheet, person history, a wiki page, submit so many fictional pieces to the dark voice is all under the RP catagory. and after a certain rank it will be impossible to get promoted without partaking in at least one of those activities. Event hough I will still do them I think they should never be forced, But also on that note if you are not forced and do not do them I dont think you should be able to hold certain positions designed for such ranks so esentially I think it should be possible to reach the top end and hold a rank but you will never get the authority to run a clan or house without being proficient in all aspects of the game. and I say that because I like many high leveled People here do not give two [Expletive Deleted]s about a rank. A rank is just something more to have to remember means nothing to me, but what does mean something to me is a billit/position. So I would be more then happy to never ever get past protector as long as some day I was afforded the operunity to run a house or maybe evena  clan. I say that because being able to lead people and assist them and watch tehm grow in my eyesis way cooler and far more enjoyable then being able to shoot lightning out of my hands or strip force powers from a person in a fiction fight.
Hmmm.... you shouldn't need to do that... though without browsing your Clan's promotion trials I admittedly couldln't say for certain it's the case.

Usually though there should be different options available. One person might do a wiki page and some DV articles to get promoted, another might earn a bunch of Clusters of Fire from multiplayer matches.

So that confuses me a bit. It's unusual to have to do writing stuff if you're a gamer or vice versa or whatever. That might be a question to take up with your Quaestor I guess.
If we had more coders willing and able to actually spend time on things, sure it would get done faster (and advanced coding, not simple html :P).  While many people may have the skills, most can't or won't put in the time required. The same goes with the graphical work.  These are specialized skills requiring countless hours of work.  The amount of people willing to put in that effort for the club is very limited.
Jac + Room + Padlock = Solution. :P

Werdna Elbee

14-07-2007 08:27:46

I agree that more power should be given to the Battleteam leaders than the Envoy. I've been saying this for ages in various debates.

Adien Falaut

14-07-2007 14:42:15

It would make things a-lot easier!

silverRaven

15-07-2007 13:42:34

I think Oberst has nailed it here. It's all about what we're selling. I think that should be a starting point for our solution. If we know what we're selling, then we can figure out what we need to do to get people to gravitate to it.