The Palpatine Theory

Demious

22-05-2007 22:27:59

Ever since seeing the movie in theaters, people have come up with their own theories on what transpired when we saw the goodly Supreme Chancellor transform into the hellish Emperor. Some say that it was how he always looked because of Dark Side disfigurement, and that he had merely been using the Force to disguise himself. Others say his disfigurement is due to the damage brought on by his own Force Lightning - that he suffered burns that melted and bloated his face. And yet another theory suggests that it was the result of "overloading" himself with his own Dark Side energies, inadvertantly causing general Dark Side disfigurement and deterioration to accelerate.

I wish to know my fellow Dark Jedi opinions on this subject. Was it a ruse, an injury, or a freak accident? Or perhaps it was something else? Perhaps you have some other explanation for the face of Palpatine? Feel free to explain it here. I eagerly await your opinion.

Tarax Kor

22-05-2007 23:06:48

A donkey shat on him.

Sith Lords are HIGHLY allergic to donkey poop.

Sakh nhem

23-05-2007 06:06:59

:blink: Anways, I don't think that you could use the force to disguise you appearance like that. But yeah, I always thought it was from the force lightning and it burn and deformed his face.

Malik

23-05-2007 08:07:49

in one of the books Luke used the force to disguise himself, Han and the others couldn't even recognise him until he made it so only people other than his friends saw a whole other person.

Sakh nhem

23-05-2007 09:16:29

Well, I take that back then. But I still believe he was wounded by his own focre lightning.

Kaine Mandaala

23-05-2007 13:56:26

I had thought it was the "force shroud" theory, because when he would address the Trade Federation via holoprojection he looked like he was disfigured. Though you saw very little of it, Sidious did not look like he had the Chancellor's face exactly. It looked older.

From a "factual" POV, maybe they didn't use makeup on Ian during the Sidious parts, but used heavy makeup to smooth his face out for the Chancellor parts.

Maybe this is just my perception from memory. I'll have to look it up.

Sakh nhem

23-05-2007 15:44:43

Yeah, he did look older, but I thought he jsut seemed older because his hood covered his face and he talked evilly and not all cheery like as senater/chancellor Palpatine

Zeron

23-05-2007 16:47:36

what the burning part not explains is his eye:



http://virginbunny.uw.hu/index_elemei/Sidious.JPG

Baron Zarco

23-05-2007 17:01:06

I do not have the book here with me but my recollection of the RotS book was that it was the "Force Shroud."

I know Star Wars is not overly concerned with realism but those are not what "lightning" wounds look like, at least not from the one electrocution I have seen. And yes, I suppose "Force Lightning" may not be like lightning in our galaxy.

I still say "Force Shroud."

Etah

24-05-2007 04:36:30

I have a somewhat more conventional explanation: GL is a lazy bastard.

At the time we was writing, directing and producing Star Wars III, he probably didnít know enough about Star Wars (EU) at that point to realize how little time passes between the prequels and the original movies. So he invented the gay show down between Mace and the Emperor to make the transition quicker.

Zeron

24-05-2007 06:41:16

yeah probably right Etah, although fiction wise, this eye changing happened in EPIII when Anakin massacred some Jedi or the Federation leaders i dont remember exactly.

Malik

24-05-2007 07:18:50

you can't say George Lucas didn't know how much time passed from episode 3 to 4, he's the one that decides how many years it is :P

Sakh nhem

24-05-2007 12:01:54

Yeah, I thought it was 19 years from episode 3 to 4. Something close to that anyways.

Demious

25-05-2007 12:53:10

My view (the overload) stems from the theory that the further you delve into the Dark Side, the more it distorts and twists you. The residual Dark side inside you literally rots your body. When Palpatine assualts Mace with Force Lightning, he is literally spewing the Dark Side at him (to make it understandable to a few. I'm a firm believer in the potentium view, and I don't want to half to write a page and a half to explain my true theory). When Mace reflects it back at him, Palpatine absorbs his own power, instead of being damaged by it. But that concentration of Dark Side energy would rack a horrible toll on one's body - absorbtion or not. So my belief is not so much that he's been injured by Force Lightning, but instead "mutated" by the Dark Side.


But before that, I do believe he was using some sort of Force Shroud to keep his looks intact.

Xanos

25-05-2007 18:01:59

I believe the most accurate answer is probably "All of the above because Lucas likes retcons".

That said, according to the ROTS novel it's basically just that the lightning melts his face. I'm not a huge fan of that because otherwise everyone else who ever got zapped would look like him. Exhibit A: Luke Skywalker. I suppose it may depend on the strength of the bolts though or something... but meh.

I tend to prefer the "the dark side screws you up" approach. There's lots of evidence of excessive use of the dark side causing premature aging, decay, etc. It manifests differently in different people but it tends to have ill effects, so I've always gone with thinking that. It would possibly explain as well why Force lightning is "rare" despite not really being all that hard to do... as if it kills you at the same time it somewhat explains why Palpatine never just walked into the Jedi Temple and zapped the lot himself.

I've never been a fan of the shroud idea... too excessive for me. That said, there is a comic of short stories, all of which are meant to be Infinities (non-canon)... however in it Palpatine does indeed use some kind of Sith alchemy to change his features (he's sitting looking like Sidious, eats a worm and does some zapping stuff, then walks out the room looking like Palpatine). I've heard of some people treating that explanation as a canon one, which is kind of possible, as while the whole collection were intended as Infinities some have since been canonised (there's one about how Grievous ended up a cybord, for example), so some people have taken to thinking the Palpatine one is canon too.

Malik

26-05-2007 15:44:59

I think the dark side decay theory was from one of the tpgs and it was agreed that it was bull[Expletive Deleted] or something.

Xanos

26-05-2007 15:49:32

Well, dark side decay in the traditional understanding (i.e. that it makes you look like Palpatine) was thrown out, yeah. The idea that it was the reason he had to clone himself every six months has been scrapped -- that was retconned so that his clones were being sabotaged by Lumiya.

Decay though does still somewhat exist. Luke's established that when Jedi use the dark side it can cause them to age badly as it just is too exhausting for them. It doesn't necessarily mean your face melts -- that much has been retconned -- but it is meant to at least have some effect, just more natural, less Palpatiney.

Dismal

26-05-2007 16:43:24

Like Lan :D

Dismal

26-05-2007 16:46:51

Also, in response to Xanos:

If continuous Dark side use ages your body physically, than Palpatine should've ended up like that. I mean, he was like really really old, continuous Dark Side usage combined with a little lightning hitting him explains his distorted face.

Xanos

26-05-2007 16:54:09

That's true, yeah.

If the theories that he was constantly using a "battle meditation"-esque power to co-ordinate the whole Empire are to be believed then it would justify why the strain just wrecked his body at an insane rate.

Really just depends which source you prefer to listen to. Which I imagine is why they've just left it open ended, so people can just believe whatever they find most realistic.

Etah

02-06-2007 21:17:35

We can explain that whole horrible scene away, that is what SW fans do to make GLís mess of a prequel trilogy work. But I still think the basic explanation is that Lucas trying to fill a continuity pothole and did so in a lazy way.

Demious

03-06-2007 01:24:18

Which proves another theory - If you are a TRUE Star Wars fan, then you know that, though he is the father of your obsession, George Lucas is an imbecile.

Draco Maligo

03-06-2007 03:31:07

It's not just the use of the Dark side that distorts your looks. Luke used the Force to disguise the Jade Shadow while they were being attacked, I think in the Swarm War (or one of those), and the use of the raw Force aged his face. But he went into a healing trance to restore himself.

Sakh nhem

03-06-2007 08:45:20

I believe we mentioned that briefly earlier on. And I wouldn't quite say GL is am imbecile but he does make a number of mistake throughout the films. And we all have to be true star wars fans to be in the DB don't we :P

m16a

03-06-2007 21:52:51

Ever since seeing the movie in theaters, people have come up with their own theories on what transpired when we saw the goodly Supreme Chancellor transform into the hellish Emperor. Some say that it was how he always looked because of Dark Side disfigurement, and that he had merely been using the Force to disguise himself. Others say his disfigurement is due to the damage brought on by his own Force Lightning - that he suffered burns that melted and bloated his face. And yet another theory suggests that it was the result of "overloading" himself with his own Dark Side energies, inadvertantly causing general Dark Side disfigurement and deterioration to accelerate.

I wish to know my fellow Dark Jedi opinions on this subject. Was it a ruse, an injury, or a freak accident? Or perhaps it was something else? Perhaps you have some other explanation for the face of Palpatine? Feel free to explain it here. I eagerly await your opinion.



I have a theory, who knows if its right, but whatever, its a theory. For the first part of my theory to be explained, people must know what the "force drain" power does. It drains the enemy's life and adds the power to you. If you recall, Palpantine is heard yelling these words as he directs some force energy at Windu. "At last, unlimited power!!!". This can be traced to force drain. It strengthens the user's dark side abilities. So my theory is this, Palpantine used force drain on Windu, and absorbed most of his life energy. Because Windu was powerful in the force, this massive intake of the force energies ravaged him and deformed his figure. Thats my palpantie theory

Draco Maligo

04-06-2007 00:30:37

Unfortunately, there's no way to prove that one way or another. They never addressed Force drain in the movies. And in the games, corruption is reflected in how far to the Dark side you go, not heavy use of the Force.

Sakh nhem

04-06-2007 13:27:00

I'm not making a stab at you or you're theory, that's not what we're here for, but I don't agree. While it is a well thought out explaination, Mace does not appear to have been drained. If Palpatine had used the force drain, wouldn't Mace grow weak and fall back at his mercy. Also, can Palpatine use both force lightning and force drain at the same time? I didn't think he would be able to do that, but forgive me if I am wrong.

Aabsdu

05-06-2007 12:51:56

Personally, I think that fact that Palpatine was getting old as hell was getting him towards that (plus the pressure of corrupting a civlization, bringing the Sith Empire back to life, and masterminding a war), and the lightning just disfigured him more. I mean, sure old age makes you look uglier, usually, but the lightning has got to be the main reason

As for the drain theory, I doubt it. Lucas never mentioned that power in the movies, and if he were to say, "Oh yeah, it's because he used drain and lightning," everyone who isn't a SW freak who be confused and asking questions. To keep things simple, it'd be better if he just shocked him to ugliness, seeing as how everyone knows what lightning looks like, if anything from RotJ

Etah

07-06-2007 15:40:07

In the fight with Mace you can see him go from normal to tweaked. Hence my theory about Lucus being a lazy mother[Expletive Deleted F-word]er.

Aabsdu

07-06-2007 23:09:36

I don't really see what you people hate about George Lucas so much. I personally think he is one of the most imaginative people of the century. Sure, he may not be the best director, but when it comes to Star Wars he knows what he wants, and he does it well. Not to mention his hand in the creation of things like ILM, Pixar, and more

Imagine the world without him, see how hard it is :P

Demious

07-06-2007 23:38:43

Oh yes. We must always respect George Lucas for creating a marvelous universe. Without him, Star Wars would not be. And there will always be that respect for him. But......err.....dah...DAH!!!! He can be a corporate twit sometimes. Being a Hardcore Star Wars fan is like being married to George Lucas - you know you love 'em, but you also know he can be an idiot sometimes. We as fans love Star Wars and want to make it as good as it possibly can be. And when George gets in the way of that (aka "Greedo/Han shot first", Jar Jar Binks, etc.), it gets ugly.

...er...by the way....HAN SHOT FIRST!!!

Etah

08-06-2007 05:38:46

I don wanna make it a habit of agreeing with CSP types, but I could have said it only a little bit better Demious. Youíre pretty much right on.

Baron Zarco

08-06-2007 09:29:08

Hell yeah Han shot first!

And before I get busted for being off topic, he would have shot first and stopped that disfigurment. He woulda shot 'em all. All of them I tell you. Beeeee-yaaaaaa!!!!!

Makurth Mandalore

14-06-2007 03:45:50

I think the reason that Palpy's face was distorted was in one of the Star Wars Encylopedias I have, was that Force Lightning could do anything from torture to kill the intended target.

Since Palpy was trying to zap Mace pretty good, it makes sense to me that because Mace was using his saber to deflect the lightening, that Palply was simply killing himself. (Which is why Mace wasn't harmed. His lightsaber was blockind the attack)

Kalak Ragnose

15-06-2007 07:42:29

In the dark nest trilogy, I belive Luke had to use Force lightening.
Afterwards, he was described as being haggard etc. Perhaps, Palpatine had held onto the lightening for too long and could not control it


-------------------
Govenor Kalak Ragnose
of Frellor

Etah

15-06-2007 23:26:43

Palpatine, the most powerful force user in the galaxy, one of the most powerful force user's in all of history, couldn't control force lightening in the prequal's, but 20 years later he is totally fine zapping Luke for extended amounts of time. I don't buy it.

Demious

16-06-2007 01:10:37

Not to play Devil's Advocate, but Kalak brings up a good point. Remember the battle between Palpatine and Yoda in the Senate Rotunda? Palpatine unleashed a gnarly wave of Force Lightning. Yoda, being the baddest mama-jammin Jedi there is, used his powers to absorb/contain it. One of the key things I remember was how quickly the Emperor's snarls and and maniacal laughter turned into yelps of helplessness as the Jedi Master turned his own power against him. Why didn't Palpatine turn it off? But this isn't the first time it's happened. There was the incident that this discussion is ABOUT. That's TWO TIMES he failed to see the error of his ways and cease his assault. I heard mention of Force Lightning have the ability to "torture OR kill". Now, in Return of the Jedi, he was obviously torturing the foolish Skywalker, and showed great skill in controlling the lightning in short bursts, while in Revenge of the Sith, I think every single bolt he sent out was meant to kill. Perhaps "torturing lightning" is easier to control than "killing lightning". Perhaps there is a set amount of voltage to "torture", and a set amount to "kill", and once the "kill" amount is set, it is very difficult to turn it off? Remember when Palpatine declared his intent to kill Luke? While electrocuting him to death, Vader renounced the Dark side and lifted his master off the ground with his cyborg-strength. And while aloft in the air, Palpatine was still projecting his lightning while in shock (no pun intended).

Just saying. Palpatine was a master of the Dark Side. But I don't believe there is on person who can truly control the full extended power of the Dark Side of the Force.

Vodo

16-06-2007 17:44:01

a little off topic, but I'd like to throw this in here.

George Lucas does not need to make the moves agree with the EU. The only real SW cannon come from the films, and in theory, it should be the EU that agrees with the movies. But due to the sheer amount of material out there, it would be quite unprobable to make something that works in all ways with every little thing that has ever been written.

GL is the progenitor, and what he says goes.

Etah

17-06-2007 13:53:48

Vodo, of course he has the legal ability to do whatever he wants. That doesn't mean it is good, right, or in the best interest of Star Wars. In fact, many Star War's things I enjoy anymore are things GL leaves totaly alone, like the Clone Wars cartoon.

Vodo

17-06-2007 16:33:11

I don't even mean legbally, I mean cannonically. Lets speak in terms of the Catholic church, seeing as the term cannon is derived from their use of the "Church Cannon", or what is accepted and what is considered unchangable.

If the Star Wars enterprise, franchise, and universe where the Catholic Church, George would be our pope. He is infallible. If he says Han is not human, but rather a two eyed mutation of a near human four-eyed monster race, then he is, despite the millions of fans and books that say otherwise.

The point is, the MOVIES ARE CANNON. If George makes a continuity error in the EU, then the EU is now in the wrong, not george. The movies come foremost in priority and cannonicity, then the multitude of books, games, comics, and what not.

^_^

fin

Baron Zarco

17-06-2007 20:55:23

Humans fear chaos and strive for continuity but at some point we have to just let go and understand that this (the movies, what would work with audiences that are diverse and spread over generations, etc.) was not all planned out -- not by a long shot -- and even if it was, as they say, "mistakes were made." Thus, the continuity bridges we struggle to build for GL, while admirable to give us something with which to work, sometimes fall of their own weight.

There were just too many factors and individuals and entities at work for it all to be a seamless web. It does not mean we will quit trying. We are fans. We will keep at it. It does mean, however, that at times there will be things that just do not fit.

Etah

18-06-2007 09:59:47

Pope, Catholic Church, Crusades, enough said

The Pope had/has the legal right to issue stupid Papal Bull's, but were they all in the best interest of the Catholic Church?

Makurth Mandalore

18-06-2007 10:21:43

Probably not. Of course I'm not Catholic, so I wouldn't know.

Demious

18-06-2007 13:35:22

George Lucas is not the "Pope" of Star Wars. He's god. And it doesn't matter whether the "god" of Star Wars thinks it right or not - what he says goes.

"Surely I say unto you - Greedo shot first. And the mass shalt payeth me millions to watcheth it"

Of course, later on we whined enough that he changed it back, but still. What George wants, George gets.

Then it is OUR job, as Star Wars "Pious", to interpret his mismatching ends. Such as why Palpatine's face bloated and drooped like a basset hound instead of getting 3rd degree burns like the REST of us when struck by lightning.

Will our interpretations matter? Probably not. GL doesn't do "fan input" that much. But that's what this thread is for. I placed this thread here to give everyone a chance to voice their opinions, and see how many other people share their view. I'm proud to say my view is coming in third place (moot point, I know). Now please. We aren't here to argue. We're here to discuss and express.

Adien Falaut

27-06-2007 14:13:43

I think that the lighting getting redirected back at him by mace's saber only sped up the disfigurement.

Etah

27-06-2007 15:10:16

Lucas is lame and the whole scene happened cause he was lazy :P End of story.

Baron Zarco

27-06-2007 16:17:59

Word.

Adien Falaut

27-06-2007 16:21:35

That figures and makes perfect since.

Etah

27-06-2007 20:14:32

:P

Makurth Mandalore

27-06-2007 21:30:50

I think it was summed up nicely there

Demious

06-07-2007 16:22:26

Ok. If you want to be unimaginative - yes. George Lucas is lazy. He didn't put thought into it. He just made it look cool. That is the definitive Real Life explanation, and none can challenge it.

But do tell me this - were in this thread did I ask for "real life" explanations? Cause I honestly thought I was just refering to in-universe explanations.

Makurth Mandalore

07-07-2007 02:56:59

True, but I guess in the process of coming up with Star Wars universe related answers, some of us strayed from the original question and put in RL input.

Anonymous

25-07-2007 02:19:57

There is no "theory" this, only facts.

Here are the facts.

The EU does not matter when it comes to the movies. The movies stand above everything in the EU, that includes the Official Novels of the films, in every way. If it's obvious that Palpatines face melts in the movie from his force lightning coming back to him, then that's why.

The novel says it's because he had a dark side mask. Regardless of what the novel says, this was not stated or even hinted at in any sort of way in the film.

The EU can give a bunch of bs about "force disguises" and all that crap. Sure, I could see a Jedi or Sith doing it. But that's not what happened here.

The movies stand above the EU *always*. I don't care what your Star Wars book said. The movies are god. The books are gods angels.

His face melted because his lightning was coming back and hitting him. That's why it melted. Period. End of story.

Adien Falaut

25-07-2007 14:14:40

Well put Cannabisia!

Khobai

27-07-2007 10:06:26

wow this discussion is dumb. cannabisia is right though. the movies are the ultimate authority on all starwars crap. the books are the least accurate source because theyre written by authors that dont know what the hell theyre talking about.

Demious

30-07-2007 19:02:38

[Post Deleted]

Demious

30-07-2007 19:03:10

There is no "theory" this, only facts.

Here are the facts.

The EU does not matter when it comes to the movies. The movies stand above everything in the EU, that includes the Official Novels of the films, in every way. If it's obvious that Palpatines face melts in the movie from his force lightning coming back to him, then that's why.

The novel says it's because he had a dark side mask. Regardless of what the novel says, this was not stated or even hinted at in any sort of way in the film.

The EU can give a bunch of bs about "force disguises" and all that crap. Sure, I could see a Jedi or Sith doing it. But that's not what happened here.

The movies stand above the EU *always*. I don't care what your Star Wars book said. The movies are god. The books are gods angels.

His face melted because his lightning was coming back and hitting him. That's why it melted. Period. End of story.



Yes. Movies are Uber-canon. And not once did I suggest otherwise. This thread is not a "debate". As I said just a few posts ago, this thread is for the thinking-fans to come with their own theories on why Palpatine changed the way he did and EXPRESS them, and to see how many people share their views. Not to argue them. If someone comes and likes your explanation and accepts it as their own, great. I'm happy for you. But this thread is not here for others to come and force their explanations on others and claiming it is "canon". Do not put down other peoples theories just because your not open minded enough to respect their opinion.

And lastly.......there is only one thing holding back your explanation. And that is........where in the movie does it say Palaptine was burned/melted? Because if what you say is true, then that whole "burn" theory would be EU, as it isn't directly stated in the movie (and I don't recall GL saying it either). Have you seen someone burned by lightning? Are you sure that force lightning does what regular lightning does? If that's how it does it, why doesn't Luke go all flabby?

In the end, there is no definite explanation for why Palpatine is disfigured like that. So don't give us that "Period. End of story" crap. This is about THEORIES - speculations. And whether it appeases your sense of self-importance or not, "A donkey shat on him" is a PERFECTLY (albeit eccentric) viable theory. So please, manifest the honor to allow people their own opinion without your belligerence making it miserable for those who actually want to participate.


wow this discussion is dumb. cannabisia is right though. the movies are the ultimate authority on all starwars crap. the books are the least accurate source because theyre written by authors that dont know what the hell theyre talking about.



And as for you.........who's dumber? The Dumb Discussion (note - discussions have no consciousness of their own) or the one who decided to participate in it? Cause either you're ONE of us dummies, or your insulting everyone else who participated in it.

Kaine Mandaala

31-07-2007 09:19:26

Ok, it's over. This is becoming a flame war.