Dark Side values?

After listening to many people on IRC and reading the message boards I have to say I am getting worried, do we even follow the dark side anymore?

Point in case, KoToR II I have heard many people saying they played the Light side first (far enough you may say) but some even went as far as saying they were not going to play the dark side?

Another point in case is the groups, I have had many discussion with new leaders saying they try to lead through understanding and communication....

WE ARE DARK JEDI! we rule through fear (Which is kinda difficult in an on-line club) but what about greed? Lust for power? both are good motivators but are rarely used in this new touchy feeley world.

Is there anyone left who truly believes in the dark side?

Thoughts, comments :w00t:

I believe completely falling to either side is pointless because you close yourself to the rest of what is available. We are Dark Jedi in the sense of we use our powers for whatever the hell we want, not to save or destroy the galaxy. Jedi save, true Sith destroy (not Sith as in the order).

We don't do either because we fictionally can't. We're in a neglected part of space that few people can reach, we're just trying to grow and do our own thing.

You say it bad for a leader to want to lead through understanding and communication? Being an asshole doesn't help much and I know people who try it. Even when I RP (which is rarely and reserved for GJWs, etc) my character is who I am. I'm not evil, and I'd rather joke than demand people to do my bidding. Once you start crossing the line of RP and DB communication you've got some problems.

True Sith doesn't destroy for the sake of it, they conquer. If something get obliterated along the way, well.. too bad.

I generally stick to the Sith Empire approach where we're simply in hiding and biding our time. There have been different styles in how different Dark Jedi work. Like Shadow said the true Sith were all about destroying. That was all that drove them. Now that is our ultimate goal in terms of the "Final Way". That symbolises the desire of the Sith teachings to conquer and/or destroy the Galaxy. The difference is if you look at the period we are set in there are a few excuses for why we might be sitting out.

The Jedi Order is being re-established by Luke Skywalker. There's not a lot we can do about that one. If you look at it from less of a military point of view and more a "true Jedi point of view" the real war isn't about defeating the New Republic its about defeating the Jedi. I guess you could argue that its better for us to wait for Skywalker to lure the Jedi all to one place so when we strike we could take them all out in one go rather than have to hunt them down everywhere.

The other argument could be that the Oracle has foreseen the coming of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion and knows that the whole Galaxy is about to suffer one major pounding; so surely its better for us just to let them do it for us and clear up the mess later rather than get our own hands messy.

There are no doubt other reasons that we could think up...

The easiest one though is just that the Dark Side suffered a major hit with the death of the Emperor and the temporary end of the Sith for a few years until the Dark Brotherhood was reformed. From a "spiritual Jedi point of view" that would mean that the power of the Dark Side has been reduced and that we need to wait until it is at full strength again. The Force has a 'will' and something of a sentience. I guess you can just argue that no matter how powerful we are if the Dark Side is still the lesser half of the Unified Force then we'll be the losing side in any war.

Think about Palpatine. He could just have walked into the Jedi Temple any day of the week and sliced and diced. That's what we're going to see in Episode III. Not just political scheming but slicing and dicing. If he was that physically powerful and not just manipulative I'm sure he could have done it years before. I mean ok, Anakin was powerful, but Dooku was pretty damn strong too and was already in a position of influence in the Jedi Council to mess stuff up. If he had wanted to just waltz in one day and slaughter the whole Jedi Temple there wasn't much stopping him, right?

Wrong... enter "the Force". If the Force wants something to happen one way thats the way it happens. There is no coincidence, only the Force. Blah, blah, blah.

Ok, I know, lame explanation. But Star Wars has as strongly religious overtones as you can get in science ficition. Besides not all Dark Jedi were that bad... Sith are a different story but there were some Dark Jedi who turned to the Dark Side for other reasons. If you look at KOTOR then Darth Revan was hardly the most vicious villain ever, he beat the Jedi into submission pretty bad but he led his armies rather valiantly.

If you want an even easier answer that that... well...

If the Dark Lord of the Sith says we stay put: we stay put.

From a Star Wars factual point of view we're all utter wusses compared to the Dark Lord himself. Hence the simplest argument would be that the Dark Lord has foreseen something (coming Yuuzhan Vong invasion is a good enough excuse here) and has commanded that we sit tight and not start killing things just yet. The Dark Lord of the Sith is still meant to represent the traditional Dark Side murderous nutjob character so it would be understandable that we'd all cower in fear before the Dark Council and follow their every command.

Uhh... about people not wanting to play the Dark Side path of KOTOR II... even if they are Jedi fanboys thats really rather strange. Buying that game and only playing it one way is almost a waste of money because you hardly experience anything. I admit that you get to listen to more of the story if you play it the Jedi way rather than the Sith way because you actually have a chance to hear what characters have to say before you ignite your lightsaber and cut them in two.

Still, if nothing more, justs goes to show something I've been saying for months: blame Lucas for creating the Jedi fanboyism from Episode II and all associated merchandising. The whole Clone Wars stuff is all about the Jedi whooping ass and being cool. Hopefully it'll get better in Episode III when Mace Windu, Yoda and all the other Jedi upstarts get their own asses kicked and all the Jedi fanboys can start crying and will start to remember why the Sith were more popular before the prequels. I'm looking forward to the new games and novels and stuff that'll be released after Episode III: Vader killing things. Vader killing things. Vader killing things; can't promote the popularity of the Sith anymore than that.

Amen to that, Goat! As to the loss of Dark Side Values, Pred... there are two different worlds at play here; the Roleplaying world and the actual Brotherhood world. We can roleplay murderous sons of bitches who enjoy killing, raping, etc... but if you try that kind of stuff when talking to a new member who's only just arrived and is somewhat confused as to what the hell's going on, they'll just say 'Screw you too' and piss off. If we want to sustain the club then an emphasis has to be placed upon making people feel welcome and leading through example. The very fact that we have an ACC is pretty Dark Side- the Jedi may train together, but they don't butcher their comrades without any hesitation like we do. If I ever spare someone in an ACC match it's because it either wouldn't be worth my time killing them or because they are of some use to me. Otherwise I slaughter the crap out of them as much as I can.

And as for not playing the Dark Side path on KOTOR 2- that's just stupid. I played the Dark Side path first because it has the best wise-crack remarks If you don't play the Dark Side path it just removes a large chunk of the game- and besides, slaughterifying everything is more fun. And it gets you credits. Being Light side might get you chicks, but Dark Side gets you credits. And powaahh. Bwaahaha.

I would like to add my two cents by making a reference to Neverwinter Nights, and how it "divides", evil, i.e. the dark side.
You see, the game says that you can either be Lawful evil, or Chaotic evil. Chaotic evil are the 'traditional' Sith, enjoying slaughter and the destruction of innocents, taking pride and enjoyment in wrecking people's lives.
Now, I believe the Dark Jedi of the Brotherhood are Lawful evil. Lawful evil are those individuals who do not perform acts of brutality just because they can, but because they must. We plot, we scheme, we murder, we plunder to achieve our ends, to gain power and glory.
But if we are able to manage that without that, like communicating with each other more peacefully, we will do it, following a sort of "ethics guide", because pointless evil acts for us are just that: pointless.
We are schemers and work in the shadows, we are hidden assassins. Not bloody orcs.

Ok truth to tell I just wanted to get people talking about this and no I don't belive in attacking new members or anything as in terms of the club we do have a limited set of dark side acts that can help, but truth to tell I rarely see people even roleplaying evil people anymore.

So to change the question slightly

Who believes in the dark side values in there own lifes?

I don't mean using the force but I mean if you HAD the power of the force in the real world (and I mean Dark Jedi Master sort of power) would you be a dark jedi or a light jedi?

Anyone who feels up to it feel free to outline your first year as a real life force user (evil plans or good)

I think I'd probably be sort of neutral, following not a particular path, but whatever my heart tells me.

I've noticed that people tend not to roleplay very well... I notice that mostly when I read Run-Ons where very few people seem to come across as "in character". Xanos is a manipulative bastard and I usually portray him as such, meaning I can often get away with acting nice where it benefits him directly, though for the most part he's your traditional Sith. I suppose you could liken my character's attitude more to Palpatine: his true agenda is as dark as it gets but he has the control to play with his opponents.

Now to take one of the best examples of a "traditional Dark Jedi" I'd probably quote the following ACC battle: http://www.darkjedibrotherhood.com/dbjedi/...tle.asp?ID=1600

From one point of view that shows how it wouldn't really be practical if we all were complete loonatics who went around slaughtering everyone in sight. However it does demonstrate that from an "in character" point of view we are capable of a lot more carnage than we often let on. I'd actually like for us to set up some "common enemies" or something for our place in the Unknown Regions... if we finished the Dominion and stuff we could probably start creating some fictional rival worlds. Nothing stops us being nextdoor to the Chiss Empire, the Ssi-Ruuvi Empire, the Empire of the Hand... there are probably a few other groups that we could fudge the SW map a little bit to claim we were at war with.

Heck... we could even create our own sort of neighbouring "Dathomir system" with a race of Force adepts that we could occassionally have fights with.

I dont think most people want to roleplay Goatham

The Dark Brotherhood has taken "Dark Jedi" and "Lightsabers" from Star Wars, and bastardized the rest of the story so it doesnt even resemble the origin.

I think one of the failings of this club, is that it doesnt follow Star Wars. Part of Star Wars is supposed to be lighthearted and comedic, but as soon as I crack a joke about someone, everyone screams "OMFG Khobai is suck a dickhead expel him!!!"

Or when peer drew that picture, and everyone was horribly offended, and trying to get Yacko to smack him around. That was rediculous, who f*cking cares, its a damn penis. If youre 20+ years old and havent seen enough penises not to be offended by one anymore, youre in serious trouble.

Also, I think we lose track, that Star Wars is supposed to be more than just Jedi running around slicing things with swords of light. Star Wars is an extensive universe, and the DB needs to explore all the possibilties of it... not limit itself to one anachronistic aspect.

And yeah, the people that roleplay Dark Jedi, are way too nice. At least im an asshole dammit!

I don't know bout really "beliving" in the dark side this is just a club for some of us nerds tho some I'd say take it veryseriously

I'd just like to add that concerning games, I doubt the 'Dark Side values' are even applicable there. Just because we're in a 'Dark Side' club doesn't mean we shouldn't explore a game to its fullest, especially since most of us buy the game FOR THE GAME, not for anything else.

Does it mean that since we're 'Dark Jedi' that we have to be pricks 24/7 in everything we say and do? [Expletive Deleted F-word] no.

Personally, I picked the Light Side in KOTOR first because as Dark Side you miss like half of the sotry. You just kill everyone that has something interesting to say.

Jac

Being a Dark Jedi is all about being a prick

Personally, I picked the Light Side in KOTOR first because as Dark Side you miss like half of the sotry. You just kill everyone that has something interesting to say.

Jac



About half way through KOTOR I was ready to start slaughtering all the long-winded people.... but I didn't. I actualy finished it as a LS Master. O-) Now I'm in KOTOR 2 and about ready to kill everyone who talks too much, but I'm still a LS Master. And I get a +3 STR bonus. I know it's an RPG and conversation is the main focus for the game but sometimes I'd rather just read quickly and click through the speech.

I recently went through JA as a Dark Sider and thought the ending was dumb. I think that' why I don't bother with the Dark Side options in all these SW games - it seems they are slanted to tell a better overall tale if you're a good guy. Same thing happened with Neverwinter Nights. All Evil choices got you nowhere plot-wise.

And yeah, the people that roleplay Dark Jedi, are way too nice.
Being a Dark Jedi doesn't mean you have to be a jerk... there are different types of Evil... Just look at D&D's pantheon of Evil.

A Light Side Jedi should not manipulate people to acheive their own personal gains, but a Dark Side Jedi would think nothing of it. A LS'er wouldn't put others in danger to benefit themselves, a DS'er would.

Yes well Khobs, you're an all-around prick, so for you this isn't an issue.

Oh goddy! my kind of thread.

It all depends on you. For some the db, the force, ect. is just roleplaying. For some it's much more. I myself am a Jedi Realist. and I aspire to the Dark path.

I've said it for ages, and I will say it again: The idea of a Dark Jedi is to the majority of the Brotherhood just a wizard with magic skills that does not have to follow any sorts of code and occasionally isn't nice to elderly women.

What most people don't realize (and, from a certain point of view, mostly likely don't *want* to realize) is that the only aim for a Dark Jedi is power and more power. His (or her) only drive is his (or hers) endless lust for it. And on the way her is willing to sacrifice or destroy everything in his path, use people as he sees fit and generally tend only to his own agenda.

Most Dark Jedi in the Brotherhood are pansies. They show so much mercy, friendliness and love that they would have been already slain if a true Sith had come along.

But then again - how fun is a run-on where everybody has to scheme and counter-scheme so he doesn't end up in a trash compactor? Or how fun is it to enjoy the common feeling of unity with other people in your Clan if you're supposed to view them only as tools to power?

Quote:What most people don't realize (and, from a certain point of view, mostly likely don't *want* to realize) is that the only aim for a Dark Jedi is power and more power

Correct.

Quote:Most Dark Jedi in the Brotherhood are pansies. They show so much mercy, friendliness and love that they would have been already slain if a true Sith had come along.

simi-correct. Dark Jedi are not bound to do unkind things. We may find plesure in them but it is not required to kill everyone we don't like. For instance, I might help someone, but only if I can benifit from it. I may be able to kill someone, and if they are in my way I will. That is Dark Jedi thought.

I think it's safe to say that everyone here has a different 'trigger' that makes them follow the Dark Side. For example, Manji (not sure if I've said this already... but hey) reveres combat and takes serious pleasure from slaughtering large numbers of grunts, as well as slaughtering worthy opponents. He might be nice to some people, but that's because they're not worth killing. It seems a bit one-dimensional to just say 'Everybody who's a Dark Jedi has to be just like 'example Dark Lord of the Sith here', or they should go and be a pansy Lightsider'. As far as the Jedi (or KOTOR 2) is concerned, being neutral is just as bad as being Dark Side- (KOTOR 2 players who've doen the tomb on Korriban...

*potential spoiler*



Remember when you had to choose what to do about an evil Kreia? if you said 'Fine, I won't attack you. but I won't stop my friends from attacking you' they all turned on you, because neutrality was seen as worse than being Dark Side.



*end spoiler*
See? Everyone has something which means that they fit in here- and besides, it's all just roleplaying. It's not like we're all going to be evil bastards to each other- if we did that there'd be maybe three people in the club. And it would suck.

the 'dark side' is based on emotion.

Not just hate, people. Love, lust, anger, rage, excitement, joy, jealousy, elation. Any emotion strong enough to illicit a emotional response...

The Jedi removed their feelings, using the force only when completely sedated emotionally.

"Are Jedi allowed to love?"

Keep in mind that it's the future Vader who answers that.

No, Jedi weren't even allowed to marry...a good way to ensure that genetically predisposed bloodlines don't continue. And that is a pretty flawed tactic, if you ask me.

By allowing your feelings to guide you fully, rather than suppressing your natural emotion, you do access power much much faster...like the mothers who lift cars off of their children.

Lightsiders avoid strong emotions, instead focussing on their training and meditation to purify. By doing so, it is a lot like traditional martial arts...it takes you quite a while to learn how to do it, but when you finally get it, it's astounding. It's all about focus to them.

Now, when you get a crazy dog like Palps in the mix, a guy who trains, and probably a lot, with intense focus AND strong emotion... well then, you can slap around almost anyone.

my two cents.

Quote:The Jedi removed their feelings, using the force only when completely sedated emotionally.

I wouldn't say they remove there emotions as much as they remove themselves from there emotions. But i agree with the rest.

You forget that Dark Jedi aren't their own masters anymore - it is the Dark Side that demands its toll every day, every minute and every second. And everytime its call for hatred and deceit has been quenched, it thirsts for more - like a hungry beast deep inside your body, trying to bite its way out. And the only way to keep it inside is performing "evil acts" (however they may look like: slaughter, treachery etc. We're not talking about love here because that's not an evil emotion. The Jedi forbid love because out of love comes anger and hatred and jealousy). And while you are fighting back this beast, it feeds on you, devours you from the inside, robs you of your life essence.

THAT is the Dark Side. And that's what most people don't realize.

The light side or dark side are just human rationalizing an innate thing like the Force. Being force sensitive just means you have abilities, the user colors them dark or evil. Whats to stop me from using "dark side" powers to help people?

Light and Dark sides are just terms used to represent a particular belief structure. The Jedi believe in gaining strength through inner peace, while the Sith believe strength is attained through anger. Both lead to the same thing and neither is more powerful as Jedi can kill Sith and Sith can kill Jedi (except in the DB where the laws of life and death to not apply)

Like I said before, the main difference people need to realise is that between Sith and Dark Jedi.

The fundamental basis of being a Sith was to want to kill all the Jedi and take over the Galaxy. The Sith were all about power and how to get it. If we were to talk literally then in theory everyone who is a Sith in the Dark Brotherhood should have that attitude, and it should be one of the fundamental fictional walls that differentiates the three Orders. In this regard we have somewhat bastardized the meaning of what a Sith is.

A Dark Jedi is somewhat different though. There have been Dark Jedi who have not turned into complete psychopaths but who simply didn't want to follow the Jedi path. I will stress however that these have been very far and few between. They also have never really used Sith teachings because there are just some uses of the Force that you cannot justify unless you're teaching yourself how to murder people (Sith attitude). With that in mind you wouldn't really be learning Force Lightning unless you were planning to use it to slaughter everyone, primarily because that kind of Force power requires a lot of hate, and ordinarily somebody using the Dark Side for good wouldn't be capable of that level of hate unless they had totally surrendered to the Dark Side (and become your cliche pychopath).

That is why Sith were always seen as possessing far more dangerous abilities than ordinary Dark Jedi. A Sith hated everyone except himself, hence the whole "give into your anger" routine. That was the only way to generate that amount of anger and hatred to channel the Force into bolts of raw energy (Force Lightning). Unless you were prepared to give in to the darkness that badly you would probably only be able to use those sort of powers sparingly when you were in a really pissed off mood.

However there is a realistic explanation for why there were so few 'controlled' Dark Jedi. You only need to look at real life. Power corrupts. There are very few people in the world who are not affected and have the self control not to let themselves be affected when they taste power. Its a part of human nature. A good ninety percent of people would start down the slipery slope of the Dark Side and no matter how much they wanted to be nice and help their friends and use their powers for good they'd eventually tumble and fall into darkness.

A powerful "good" Dark Jedi would only need to have an argument and attack his friends out of anger to take that one step too far. A Dark Jedi is extremely powerful so it only needs be a "small" mistake and he could have murder on his hands. Look no further than Anakin Skywalker killing his own wife, Padme, "by accident" because he got in a bad mood. It was the equivalent to a man slapping his wife, something more husbands than one would like are guilty of, even if on the rarest of ocassions, but because he was a Dark Jedi, and prepared to use the Dark Side, that accidental "slap" was fatal enough that it killed her. And that was his one step too far, because he couldn't undo it, and the guilt then ate away and him and destroyed him completely.

That's why there were so few Dark Jedi who used the Force for good, because it only takes that normally small action to fall completely, and most people then can't live with themselves with murder on their hands, and people who can't live with themselves more often than not either commit suicide or turn violent. In comes the psychopathic cliche Dark Jedi.

But, naturally, that wouldn't be particuarly easy to work with for the Dark Brotherhood so we do have to allow for a little bit of flexibility with the reality of human attitudes and everything. It would be possible to run a system with everyone being psychopathic but it would be rather limiting, and require everyone to roleplay a very specific character profile, which wouldn't be as enjoyable for most people.

Look no further than Anakin Skywalker killing his own wife, Padme, "by accident" because he got in a bad mood.


Thanks for the spoiler, Goat.

The light side or dark side are just human rationalizing an innate thing like the Force. Being force sensitive just means you have abilities, the user colors them dark or evil. Whats to stop me from using "dark side" powers to help people?

I was about to write "This is plainly wrong" - but that's not true. From a certain point of view you are right. What you forget, however, is that a person using the Dark Side loses control over himself as the Dark Side consumes him. This is an important fact. While you may still be able to perform good deeds after turning to the Dark Side (attuning), you will never be able to once you have completely fallen to it.

Light Side and Dark Side are "mere" labels, that is right. But they label a very important distinction. Because, as Goat has pointed out, Dark Side powers are fuelled by hatred (and other negative emotions), influencing you in turn as well. Human (and alien) psyche plays an important part, as it is twisted by the Dark Side and the Force-wielder himself.

What about Shadow Jedi? They tap both sides of the force but aren't taken over by either. You can use anger to make yourself stronger, etc and still keep you head. Depends on the sort of person you are.

There is no shadow, no in-between - despite what any deranged author may write in some novel. That has been made clear in the majority of the SW novels, the SW games and, of course, the SW movies.

You are either dark or light - there is nothing in between.

(Of course there are different peculiarities of darkness and light. And, granted, there may be Jedi who draw upon the Dark Side with the intention to do good (see Ulic Qel-Droma). But eventually, they are spiraling down the dark path and will be consumed if they do not attune.

You know, in a certain manner, you could talk about righteous anger, and justified vengeance and such, which could fuel "dark" powers for the purpose of good, but I think the point Lucas was trying to make was, Jedi were supposed to be the kind of people who turned the other cheek every time, unless it was to defend others. And even then, they used only as much force as necessary, never anything more. Insert Yoda saying, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." Any Dark Side powers that were seen (as far as the movie) were pretty much for attack.

Now, you take in stuff like the comics, and probably the books (though I've never read the book trash) and you see people like Exar Kun in TotJ "healing himself" after giving himself more fully to the Dark Side. I think it insinuates that the Dark Side is selfish, and used for personal gain. I also think that's a precedent to get rid of "healing others" and such in the DB; darkies wouldn't likely be running around trying to heal each other, but then again, we say the DB is tempered with honor, and loyalty, even if it is corrupt, and working to lead only towards the domination of the galaxy, and stuff.

Shadow Jedi are a rediculous concept, and I have to agree with the stupid Lightie on that.

And I don't remember what else I was going to say.

But they still say that the Force is the Force. If theres a bad and a good theres always a neutral, the two have to balance themselves out and neutral is that point of balance. Luke used grip which is an evil use of the Force what with the killing of a person telekinetically, and it was Vaders specialty. But he's still a light Jedi Master. You don't have to be an insane nutjob to get angry. True mastery would be using your anger or your compassion to get that extra strength. Anyone who ends up falling to the light or dark side becomes weak because they deny themselves the full range of abilities and powers.

My "character" is a Dark Jedi but I'm not evil. If anything I'd use my powers for the good of myself and the good of my friends rather than just randomly be an idiot and kill people.

Shadow Jedi is just a term. Lucas hasn't come out and just said "in the entire galaxy there's only a dark side and a light side" hell, even Palpatine said the Force is just a tool. The user decides how they use it and towards what ends. We then just rationalize it as good and evil because it's easier to understand, but that's like saying a sword is good or evil. How can an innate object be good or evil?

There is no shadow, no in-between - despite what any deranged author may write in some novel. That has been made clear in the majority of the SW novels, the SW games and, of course, the SW movies.

You are either dark or light - there is nothing in between.

(Of course there are different peculiarities of darkness and light. And, granted, there may be Jedi who draw upon the Dark Side with the intention to do good (see Ulic Qel-Droma). But eventually, they are spiraling down the dark path and will be consumed if they do not attune.


I disagree. It is wrong to say there is only black and white, with no grey. Action equals consequence. A kindness might lead to cruelty, and vice versa and an action might follow unorthodox methods to reach a rather noble cause. You can't draw a line between what is considered good and what bad. Doing some actions which might be considered "bad" does not necessarily mean that you yourself are bad, nor does it mean offering a helping hand to someone makes you "good". As Jolee Bindo said, if you've ever played KOTOR 1, both extremes are disgusting, because neither is always right. It's like being a member of a political party and agreeing with every decision it makes, just because it's your party.

Well, if we're going to do the injustice of boiling either paradigm down to single sentences, it would be this:

Lightsiders want what's best for everyone. Darksiders want what's best for them.

Looking at even palpatine's motives, he united a crumbling republic by creating a martial state in the empire. He forced people to get along...or else. This was a more or less good intention, although as he claimed more and more power, he grew more and more corrupt. The oppressive regime that ensued caused a rebellion...but that's a separate subject. But I think even Palps started with good intent.

To say that lightsiders ignore their emotions, while darksiders give themselves into their emotion is a misnomer. I think it would be much more accurate to say that Darksiders embrace their emotions, bind them to their will. Palpatine, as dark as he was still thought out every move, every repurcussion. If he gave in to his emotions, why wouldn't he attack the Jedi council when they didn't expect it...sitting in his office or something?

And Dooku...he wasn't enraged at Obi-wan, anakin, or yoda. His face didn't show anger...only concentration... And he was not fully dark-side yet. (his eyes didn't go all colorful like every other sith lord like maul, palps, or vader) And yoda spat force lightning back at dooku... what's that say? Yoda ain't a sith.

The big mistake I think we're making is we're stereotyping "Lightsider" as meaning the same as Jedi. There are different degrees of "Lightsider", even if only one strict ideal for what it means to be an actual Jedi Knight. Jolee Bindo was essentially a Lightsider, he just didn't adhere strictly to the Jedi Code. He had not fallen to the Dark Side but he was still predominantly Light.

The labels "Light" and "Dark" are more a state of mind than labels on the Force itself. It is true that manifesting the Force as Lightning isn't inherently "Evil" or "Dark", it is how you use that energy that matters. So, yes, there are "Grey" Jedi in that regard, people who look beyond the Jedi teachings and think "whats wrong with using Force Lightning to recharge a battery?" (or whatever). However the second you start blowing people up with Force Lightning you cross that line into the Dark Side, there isn't justification for it. Murder is murder.

There are different shades of Light and Dark but there is no "true neutral" in Star Wars. The literal idea of a Shadow or "Grey" Jedi doesn't work. People will always be either Light Grey or Dark Grey, there is no plain Grey, and so they will always air toward being either Light or Dark. Its an inescapable fact.

The Dark Side is a lot like a black hole. You don't come out of it and when you fall you keep on falling. It has no boundaries it is a limitless pit.

You need look no further than the films. Look at Episode I; look at the actor they cast for Anakin Skywalker. They deliberately made him out as the most pure and innocent boy imaginable to demonstrate that "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny". No matter how righteous his intentions, no matter how noble his reasons for wanting to become a Jedi (to pursue his dreams, to save his mother, etc.) he still fell to the Dark Side.

The character of Anakin Skywalker exists for that very purpose, to demonstrate that there is no way to escape the pull of the Dark Side.

Now while he eventually found redemption he is one of only two people to have ever done so. Anakin Skywalker and Ulic Qel'Droma are the only two Sith Lords to have ever returned to the Light. There have been Fallen Jedi and lesser Dark Jedi but of all those who have given completely and surrendered fully to the Dark Side (the only way to unlock the greatest and most destructive powers) only two have ever been able to turn their backs on such power and walk away (I'm aware there are probably some lame minor characters I'm forgetting).

Its possible for "Shadow" or "Grey" Jedi to exist, but it isn't a regular occurance. If sticking to the Jedi Code is meant to be difficult then balancing on the knife-edge that is the exact point between Light and Dark would be next to impossible. 99.99% of times somebody would be either Light Grey or Dark Grey.

That's why they aren't called White Jedi and Black Jedi (other than the obvious racist issues that would have been asking for), because there are different degrees of Light and Dark, but as with real colours, the hardest colour to create isn't White or Black, it's a perfect shade of Grey. Likewise, as soon as you put a little bit of Black in with the White you will never be able to get it to become pure White again, you'll always have some shade of Grey. It is far easier to make something Black if you spill a little White paint than it is to make something White again if you spill a little Black.

What if I use Force Lightning on troops about to slaughter innocent people? Is that still evil? Luke blew up a Death Star killing thousands of people but that didn't make him evil. He saved billions more by doing it.

And why is it that the "dark side" has such a hold? If one can slip from the light towards the dark, couldn't one just as easily go from the dark to the light? They never really explain why you can't change back and then they throw in people who have done it before. In the 100,000 years or whatever force users have existed I'm sure there have been many "shadow" jedi and many others who have turned from the dark side. We don't have to really follow the movies, and how could we? The whole basis of this club goes against the movies

I've just recently altered my character from the ground up. I made myself out to be a "Shadow Jedi" because it fits my nature. I'm not wholly good or evil, and my character uses both sides of the Force to fit his need. If this were an RPG, and it sorta is, I'd be chaotic neutral - which I always am in any RPG I can use either power to server my self or to server others, I choose for myself, I don't follow some preconcieved guidelines enforced because its "the norm"

Well, just a couple things. 1) Luke didn't blow up the Death Star. That wasn't exactly his fault, more like the fault of that dude who flew through the bridge of the Executor, which then got pulled into the Death Star because of its own gravity, blah blah blah. 2) If you used Force Lightning to kill a bunch of people ready to slaughter innocents, isn't there a better way that you could've done it, without tapping into your anger? Were you only using "as much force as required," or was there a way, I don't know, that you could've used TK to throw up a shield around the innocents?

Yeah, sounds awful lame. It's more fun to just fry people with Force Lightning, but that's always been the impression I've had, of what lucas wanted Jedi to be. They were always the peacemakers, who found "better ways" of doing it. Perfect example: Obi-Wan Kenobi, in trying to get Luke to confront Vader. Sure, he could've said "Luke, he's an evil bastard, he's your father, and I have to train you to fight, and kill him." Instead, he told him Vader murdered his father, and then let himself be killed to make Luke think vader was just the killer of Kenobi, and all that stuff, so that Luke would want to kill Vader.

I don't know. It's all weird bull[Expletive Deleted], in the eyes of the beholder. I don't believe there's "Shadow Jedi," who have access to everything, to "maintain the balance." I believe there's Jedi who know evil powers, and use them, but it taints them, and they have to "atone" for it, or risk crossing sides. I also think there's Dark Jedi who know "good powers," but they twist them, or make them conditional, blah blah blah, in an effort to make a good deed seem like a shady deal, just to swindle someone out of something. I don't see "true neutrality" being available, but that's just me.

and I've now stopped caring cuz the argument is sort of pointless. None of us can be right because we arent George Lucas so we don't make the rules, and I doubt we'll ever see the complete 100,000 year history of the Republic through til the New Jedi Order, etc. It really doesnt matter in any way.

What if I use Force Lightning on troops about to slaughter innocent people? Is that still evil? Luke blew up a Death Star killing thousands of people but that didn't make him evil. He saved billions more by doing it.


There are two things that have to be taken into mind when using the Force: The first is the reason and the aim you use the Force for, and the second is your state of mind and how you gt the Force to work.
"Force Lightning" is a pure manifestation of the Dark Side. You need to gather so much anger and hatred that even Charles Manson would look like Mother Terese. And there is also the explanation why it's only reserved for the darkest of Sith Lords: Everybody else just can't muster enough hatred to manifest the Force that way.
So even if you were trying to simply recharge a battery (or maybe power up a generator for an orphanage so thousands of innocent children survive), you let your hatred and anger get the better of you, which in turn is the Dark Side consuming you even more. You grow powerful, learn better how to focus your anger and how to gather even more hatred until there is nothing but hatred and ange, rendering you unable to feel anything else.

Healing yourself is best done when in a clear state of mind - without anything bothering you, at tranquility. I think it is obvious from my above explanation why Light Jedi would have less problems emplyoing it than Dark Jedi - although they may still be able to, under extreme difficulties. Also, keep in mind that Ulic Qel-Droma wasn't fully Dark Side when he was healing himself (did he even do that?).

And why is it that the "dark side" has such a hold? If one can slip from the light towards the dark, couldn't one just as easily go from the dark to the light? They never really explain why you can't change back and then they throw in people who have done it before. In the 100,000 years or whatever force users have existed I'm sure there have been many "shadow" jedi and many others who have turned from the dark side. We don't have to really follow the movies, and how could we? The whole basis of this club goes against the movies



I am sure we are all aware by now that we're discussing basic Star Wars principles not necessarily kept up under the current structure of the club.

That being said, even the DB doesn't allow Shadow Jedi. I understand that the concept of a neutral Force-wielder is the pinnacle of spoilerism but it just doesn't work this way. Light and Dark Side aren't equal. Mastering the Light Side is inherently more difficult than mastering the Dark Side. This isn't because Miss Force tells you "I don't like your face over here" but because of its association with your state of mind when employing the Force (or not doing so, see above).
And no, there have never been Shadow Jedi. If a Jedi turns away from the Dark Side, he is most of the time tainted (slightly Dark) or disconnects himself from the Force - see Ulic Qel-Droma (although that wasn't a mutual termination of hostilities ).
The Dark Side has such a hold because it feeds on strong, negative emotions. And since we humans (and other aliens) are emotion-based creatures, the Dark Side always has a stronger grip on us.
On a sidenote, I believe Vulcans wouldn't make good Jedi either, as they lack the compassion needed to follow the Jedi Code.

Blah Blah Blah. I'M I LIGHT JEDI FOOL! BOO-YAH

Heh I like your sig Mike

Still doesn't matter as that's just the way you perceive it. Not everyone will see things the same way, and it hasn't been denied outright in the movies. There has been mention of it in the books, which afaik do need LA approval. Just like KoToR needed approval for anything they did from LA. If we're sticking to stock Star Wars canon then we need to make a lot of changes around here.

Seems to me you're a Jedi Master in a Dark Jedi club, explain how that works when the two sides hate one another so much?

I'm not in any position - I'm the Rogues. I see no problems there.

The Light Side is all about control, especially about control of your emotions. Even compassion with others is to be controlled or there is the danger to be swept away with other's feelings and situations. Obi-Wan was swept away as a Padawan and even left the Jedi for a bit.

In the books (who some might ignore) the Jedi were allowed to marry/partner up among themselves. But duty always had to come first, and they would not see each other for long intervals.

However, this lack of acknowledging emotions makes the Jedi vulnerable, too. Who drove Anakin to the Dark Side after all? Yes, he was tempted by Palpatine, but the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan caused his frustration first place.

The Dark Side is all about giving in to your emotions and instincts, doing what you feel is right (this being selfish or altruistic) and not giving in to anyone else if you can be stronger. It's easier to be powerful with emotions, but harder to take control. And as was pointed out before, with power comes corruption.

It was never said anger IS part of the Dark Side. Only that it leads to the Dark Side. Inevitably, if you do not supress it. But in the end, even positive emotions can lead to anger or fear.

A Jedi who loves someone and this person is injured and close to dying will fear for his or her life and for him or herself because of the danger of being left alone. Now they got some skill in the Force but not enough to heal with the Light Side's control alone. Fear and anger, though, call up power from deep inside they never knew they were capable of. Barely controlled, raw power, but it will focus on the task at hand and heal the loved person.

Now in itself this was a Light Side act. Based on how it was done, it was all Dark Side. There could be many such examples.

Shadow Jedi exist in my personal SW universe. However, they are not the "balance" of the Force, even though they will more often than not claim it. The balance comes from Light and Dark alone. The Shadow is what is in the middle and dependant on both. Inevitably, someone calling him or herself a Shadow will favour one side of the Force. Those who don't will hardly ever have any substancial power. You need true committment for real power. I also don't know where the idea comes from that Shadow Jedi would have "access to everything." They have access to whatever they are talented in, just like a Dark Jedi. A Dark Jedi can use so-called Light powers if it suits his needs and wants and views. The Brotherhood members use healing for example. What else is there that is even considered a pure Light Side power?

And yes, the Shadow Jedi are essentially Dark, just not completely swallowed by the Dark Side. That is what you don't see, Mike. "Slightly Dark" is Shadow. And yeah, Vulcans would make good Jedi I believe, because Jedi also control compassion in the end. It would be like the ultimate Light Jedi. Something not possible with any emotion.

And yes, the Shadow Jedi are essentially Dark, just not completely swallowed by the Dark Side.  That is what you don't see, Mike. "Slightly Dark" is Shadow.



Arania, that is just picking words. If somebody calls them "Shadow Jedi" around here, they see themselves as a godlike fuse between Light and Dark Jedi, using both sides of the Force without any of its drawbacks. And albeit that may be possible in somebody's small, personal universe, it is not in the official Star Wars one (and neither in the DB one either).

Umm not really. I've written about my character and because he can tap the force using either anger or compassion he has access to both sides of the Force. However, it's like Ara says. If not completely devoted to one side you will never achieve that true power. For instance I'd never be able to use Force Lightning as it's completely dark. When the RP stuff with rebirth is done we get to choose what powers we have and place points in them (or at least thats how it was in the beta) So it's far from godmoding.

If it is being abused its being done so by newbs who would give themselved godlike Dark Side powers anyways because they dont know anything about the DB.

Thinking about it I'm starting to wonder if Healing would be a Light Side power, or whether it would actually be a Dark Side one. It was meant to be a very rare skill among Light Jedi, as Jedi Healers were far and few between, and it was a difficult skill to master properly.

Now let's think for a moment about Palpatine and the idea of Sith having long life. How do you extend your life? Surely that's a form of "Healing" in a way, as you have to keep your cells young, you have to pervert nature and twist the Force to your will, rather than take life as it really is.

Come to think of it I've never actually seen that many Jedi heal themselves. To heal would require you to accelerate the growth of your own cells, which is a perversion of nature and the nature process of life, which could quite easily be thought of as a Dark Side property. Think about the recent trailer: "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural - Palpatine". If you think about it, forcing your cells to heal quickly isn't the most natural thing. After all, if healing was a Light Side power, why would Anakin have needed to ask Palpatine how to save Padme? Surely the Jedi could have stopped her dying?

It's not "Dark" from an emotional point of view, but it makes you wonder how truly Light it is... you could probably argue healing is actually a neutral power. Healing others is obviously as purely Light as it gets, but healing yourself in the middle of a battle, in order to win that battle and kill the other person, could easily be seen as a selfish and twisted act, thus Dark.

That's absurd and completely off-topic, even though I can understand how you came to those ideas. Also keep in mind that there are no such things as "Force powers".

In addition, stop giving out spoilers for Episode III. Some people haven't see the trailer and don't intend to do either. This is the second time you're doing that.

It's not really off topic, and it really gets you thinking. And I hardly doubt saying one line from the trailer is considered a spoiler.

I hardly see how discussing Force powers is off topic when we were discussing Force powers.

Further to my previous point, can anybody actually name a Jedi who has used healing powers? Ever? I'd actually struggle to do it. I've never seen, outside RPG material (which breaks every rule in the book anyway), a Jedi able to magically and spontaneously heal. The only people I've seen do that are Dark Jedi who achieved it by draining the life force from another creature. I mean, if healing was so easy, why didn't Obi-Wan, or Luke, or even Yoda, ever use it? Even in the books I've never seen it. They could go into a Healing Trance but that was the extent of it. They couldn't heal quickly and easily. They could only speed up their bodies natural functions, not magically stitch an open wound.

Healing would be more comparable to Sith Sorcery and Alchemy (think mutations and the Massassi warriors) than to the natural way of life. The Jedi only ever used the Force when they absolutely had to, otherwise they taught not to call on it and not to become dependant on it. I can see why they might use it if somebody was dying (though even then they weren't the sort to be afraid of death), but to heal for other purposes seems very much the "quick and easy path".

And I believe you missed my point; I was providing a possible justification for why Dark Jedi could well make use of healing techniques. If you would rather I not use an Episode III reference then look no further than Darth Vader. It was the Dark Side that kept him alive. The ability to prolong the life of his body wasn't an application of the Light Side, but was something that can only be described as a form of healing and medication.

By the way, I deliberately stuck to the same reference I had made earlier to ensure it wasn't a second "spoiler". I also wasn't aware it even was, because it's nothing to do with the trailer or material released regarding Episode III, it's an established fact that has been circulating the Expanded Universe for over a year now. It's as much a spoiler as me telling you that Palpatine is really Darth Sidious, or that Anakin Skywalker is really Darth Vader.

Actually, I have read about them using it. In the Jedi Apprentice I believe... or whatever the hell series has a young Obi-Wan. He uses the Jedi ability to heal after several practice saber matches. Basically, the book says they accept the pain as a signal from their body and use it to hasten the speed at which they heal. That's what healing is. Dark Jedi or Light they use their knowledge and ability to hasten their recovery which would heal wounds or knit bones at a rate you could visibly see.

Look at Episode 1 the duel of fates. Obi-Wan falls how far down from one of those ramps and lands on his shoulder, takes a second and gets back up. I don't think its anything we see as its something being done on the inside. Theres no way he could have landed like that without breaking something

Besides, Heal has been a power in every game going back to Jedi Knight - the first time you get to really play a Jedi character. Which is approved by LA. *shrugs* Oh, and healing yourself in battle doesn't have to be for selfish reasons. A Jedi would need to heal to continue their mission of protecting innocents. If they just allowed themselves to be killed by every murderous enemy they'd be allowing evil to reign unchecked. So it's not always how it appears.

Again this all goes back to the Force is the Force. Either way you tap into it its still the same damn thing. Which would mean a light jedi can use lightning (ie Yoda) and a Dark Jedi could heal. Telekinetic kill is an evil power (grip) but Luke uses it in RotJ. So much for theories on light or dark side only powers.

Beh. I agree with Shadow.

Your way of thinking isn't wrong, Goat, but it's a little out of context. I'm not going to recitate Shadow with how many games have healing as a Light Side power since we all heard that already. Also, we all agree that healing another is an altruistic act of good (to a certain) extend so it's not dark either.

The Force always manipulates particles on an atomic scale. Telekinesis accelerates atoms, inner strength (whatever that may look like, take Force Shield from KOTOR for example) bolsters your cells and Battle Meditation even influences the minds of both allies and enemies by a strong degree.

The argument that healing is of the Dark Side because it facilitates the growth of cells as a "perversion of nature" (Just think about this very statement for a second!) is not valid.

Last but not least, as second part of the counter-proof, it is also imperative to see why this power would be used. Refer to Shadow above for the combat issue. Outside of combat, a Jedi would harm the galaxy if he didn't heal himself since he is the guardian of justice and peace. Injured, he is a bad guardian and places the galaxy in jeopardy.

And that is why Healing is a Light Side power, and not a Dark Side one.

Obi-Wan used healing in A New Hope, waking up luke after the tuskens knocked him out.

light, dark, it's all the same. The 'dark side' is just more about self-empowerment...and selfishness. The Jedi learned from the way the sith fought each other down in petty rivalries, and probably built the Jedi code as a way to control the force sensitives.

but then again, i'm probably applying too many real world concepts to a fantasy world.

The mechanics of a being's psyche do not change, whether they're placed into a fantasy world or not. Some beings, by nature, tend to be more giving, and caring for their immediate environment, whereas others care only for themselves and their personal gain.

Gees! Being part of the darkside involves giving your liver and brain hell by drinking too much beer, then making an absolute fool out of yourself when your pissed to your eyeballs. - Atleast that's what I thought the brotherhood was about when I joined .

And you'll ask,

Why was Vader so Dark and Mean?
Well who wouldn't be when there's a permanent mask between you and the emperor's best brew.

Ever heard of straws, Konar?

After listening to many people on IRC and reading the message boards I have to say I am getting worried, do we even follow the dark side anymore?

Point in case, KoToR II I have heard many people saying they played the Light side first (far enough you may say) but some even went as far as saying they were not going to play the dark side?

Another point in case is the groups, I have had many discussion with new leaders saying they try to lead through understanding and communication....

WE ARE DARK JEDI! we rule through fear (Which is kinda difficult in an on-line club) but what about greed? Lust for power? both are good motivators but are rarely used in this new touchy feeley world.

Is there anyone left who truly believes in the dark side?

Thoughts, comments  :w00t:


Yes I guess you could say i believe in the Dark Side, im big on power, greed, and fear

Quote:"You forget that Dark Jedi aren't their own masters anymore - it is the Dark Side that demands its toll every day, every minute and every second. And everytime its call for hatred and deceit has been quenched, it thirsts for more - like a hungry beast deep inside your body, trying to bite its way out. And the only way to keep it inside is performing "evil acts" (however they may look like: slaughter, treachery etc. We're not talking about love here because that's not an evil emotion. The Jedi forbid love because out of love comes anger and hatred and jealousy). And while you are fighting back this beast, it feeds on you, devours you from the inside, robs you of your life essence."

THAT is the Dark Side. And that's what most people don't realize.

You are a fool. The dark side is a loosely knit collection of individuals who are dedicated to personal growth and the pursuit of knowledge and power, who try to look within themselves and outside. It stresses individualism and critical thinking, self-control and mindfulness, yet relies on exercising passion and emotion. The only responsibility we have is to ourselves, and it is a rather big responsibility - to be the most we can be, what sounds so simple but really isn't. It's everything, and it's dark. Darkness is about honesty. Stripping yourself bare and looking to see how you have really been constructed. Looking into yourself. Seeing what it is you desire.

What about anger and hatred? Passion is important for a darksider. It gives us the conviction to do things, the desire to create and destroy. But of course, passion isn't just about anger and hate. It's about the full range of human emotions. To be passionate is to care about what you are doing, to care about the things you touch and talk about, to care about where you are going. We must, therefore, be passionate when we're laughing and smiling with friends; not just when we shouting in anger. Otherwise, we are repressing those passions which make our life worth living, and not only depriving our life of part of its full blooded colour, but running the risk of developing problems through not admitting to and repressing those things which we find undesirable.

That is the Darkside.

Quote:" I was about to write "This is plainly wrong" - but that's not true. From a certain point of view you are right. What you forget, however, is that a person using the Dark Side loses control over himself as the Dark Side consumes him. This is an important fact. While you may still be able to perform good deeds after turning to the Dark Side (attuning), you will never be able to once you have completely fallen to it."

This is plainly wrong. The Darkside is all about control.

Quote: "Light Side and Dark Side are "mere" labels, that is right. But they label a very important distinction. Because, as Goat has pointed out, Dark Side powers are fuelled by hatred (and other negative emotions), influencing you in turn as well."

Again, wrong. Darkside powers are fuled by ALL emotion. Not just negative ones.

I'll just take a good laugh on that, okay?

Now now, I think you all got far off topic. It was pretty simple. If you had all those neat powers in RL, would you go out frying or not. I know I would. Hell, I would use force lighting, and add "smels like chicken"

I think I believe in Dark Side values, to some extent. And this is why. I mean, what does Sith code say? The force will set me free. And that's nice
You don't have to take over the galaxy and kill of all jedi to be free. Of course, you will say, that when one controls everything he is free. But if he isn't strong enough to control it all (Look at ALL famous darksiders) he won't get freedom, and will simply die. Being a Dark Sider means being free. Free from everything, including you own pride and arrogance (hey, that's what got Exar, Palaptine, Naga Sadow and others killed. They were arrogant enough to think they would take over republic). One shouldn't be oblidged to go out, manipulate everyone, kill others, and be a prick. He should be able to do that, but shouldn't necessary do that. He should be able to show mercy and compasion too. being unable to give charity, being nice to strangers means, that you still have limitations. Of course, again, one shouldn't be obliged to do thath. One should simply be ablt to chose to either spit on a beggar or give him hundred bucks or simply ignore him (sorry for a not so nice example), and be confortable with all posible actions. Now it would be nice to be free, wouldn't it?

Anyway, my rambling ends here.

P.S. No, I can't fry anyone. I wish I could, but meh. It was completely theoretical post.

See? Sepiroth and Shimas are prime examples for what I have denounced earlier. Dark Jedi in the DB aren't Dark Jedi. They're pansies with no real idea of the Force itself. Hey - no offense. You just don't have the experience to know any better... yet.

I just read some of the previous posts and I am apt to agree with Master Halcyon; most of the members of the Dark Brotherhood let their real life influence their characters and what we are left with is a large group of weak willed-quasi Dark Jedi who can't decide whne to help or when to hurt. We, as characters, can't decide what is the real role of a dark jedi.

It appears to me that to be a dark Jedi one must feed off their passions and emotions, this we can all agree upon. But, assuming our characters are influenced by the same feelings as the people that created them this is a technical impossibility. For even though we will always try and destroy those around us in a greedy rage our natural emotions will always make us form groups to which we then compromise some of our feelings for the better of the whole. This is an unavoidable consequence of higher thinking and it is one we cannot avoid.

So, if one had to ask my opinion I do not believe any of us are "dark Jedi" as none of us fit the true definition. However, if we look at what it takes to be a true dark jedi or even a sith we can see that to be truly dark is almost impossible. In the entire history we claim to follow we only have a few good examples of people who truly lived dark side values. It is simply so hard to do that only the most exceptional are able to achieve this state. So, maybe we're not truly dark but based on the what it takes to truly believe in the dark side I think we're getting about as close as we can come.

What Kschamehellan said.

I also get the feeling that most people around seem to think that being a Dark Jedi is the same as being a Goth. As if it was some kind of fatal, sad fate you're the victim of.

Also, take note that I am referring to how people act in character and in their stories - not in reality. There are no Dark Jedi in reality.

See? Sepiroth and Shimas are prime examples for what I have denounced earlier. Dark Jedi in the DB aren't Dark Jedi. They're pansies with no real idea of the Force itself. Hey - no offense. You just don't have the experience to know any better... yet.

Hal. You just don't understand. Some people Not members of the DB do believe in the Force, the dark/light side, ect. These people are known as Jedi Realists. They believe in the Force the same way some peole believe in Paganism, Wicca, or even Christianity.

Yes, and if we were still living in the 18th century, they'd be burned. What's your point?

Plain and simple? The title of this thread is Dark Side Values: DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE DARK SIDE. My point is that some people may.

There were a few good points made about how the dark side is about 'living off your emotions' and such, but while the principle ideas always seem to be there, its in the interpretation where the confusion occurs. I think the easiest way to understand what the dark side is is to understand what the Jedi Order isn't.

The fundamental basis of Jedi belief revolves around letting go of all attachments- physical, spiritual, mental, emotional... everything. That's what being a Jedi is about; becoming one with the Force and allowing the will of the Force to be your guide. In a sense it involves 'being' the Force.

The 'dark side' is the reverse. Not quite the opposite, more just 'everything that isn't a Jedi'. It again wraps around the fundamental idea that 'power corrupts'. Meaning if you don't live by the strict harmony of a Jedi Knight's lifestyle eventually you'll do something you regret. A Jedi's life involves following the 'will of the Force'. However there isn't a 'will of the dark side'.

The Force is the Force is the Force. It doesn't suffer from schitzophrenia. It has a will. The dark side means ignoring that will. Putting self before the Force.

So, like Mike said, following the dark side doesn't mean entering into some kind of cult running around killing everything that steps in front of you. This is one of the features that makes me hate the term 'light side', because its a fantasy, its fiction, it isn't correct. There isn't a 'light side', there isn't really a 'dark side' either, but we'll come to that. What we have taken to labelling the 'light side' simply means 'the Jedi path'. That's all it means; the Jedi path. The Force isn't a colour palette with 50% white and 50% black. Nor is it a gradual shade with pure white slowly blending through various shades of grey to pure black. The Force is just the Force.

Like I said before; the Force is the Force is the Force.

The best symbolism I have for this actually comes from the new Revenge of the Sith novel (don't worry- no spoilers). Think of the Force as you do space. The darkness is infinite; the light of the stars only stretches so far. However, even the smallest candle can push back the dark. That's more what the 'light side' and 'dark side' are. The 'light side', or Jedi path, is a star on the infinite expanse of darkness. Its the way of using the Force for good without allowing human instincts and emotions to corrupt.

The dark side is in this case the opposite. If you don't follow the Jedi path then you have no guideance. And yes, the dark side corrupts. Because with the dark side there is self.

Self is an attachment. A Jedi forgets their family, their ancestry, their individuality, and becomes just that; a Jedi. They perform the will of the Force; there is no self in that. A Dark Jedi ignores the will of the Force and does what he wants. Does the dark side itself corrupt you by causing your skin to peel and your limbs to fall off with leprosy? No. It is your self that corrupts, because without the Jedi path, "the 'light' side", without the will of the Force, all that is left is what you want. To want is to be possess, and to possess is to retain attachment. Hence through attachment, through greed, envy, jealousy, pride etc. you develop the personality traits associated with the dark side.

In a way that is the best answer for what the dark side is. The dark side is self. Its about wanting what you want more than what the will of the Force wants.

To a certain extent the dark side doesn't exist. The Force is the Force is the Force after all. It is really just a label, created by the Jedi Order, for anything 'that isn't of the Jedi path'. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, it just means you can't cleave the Force into two halves and label them 'light side' and 'dark side'. Its not as simple as that. This is the very reason why the path to Knighthood was many failed to complete, and why so many were turned away by the Jedi Order if they did not meet their strict demands, because the Jedi path was a narrow one. Everything else was the dark side. Thats why it was so easy to fall to the dark side, because there was much more that was dark than was light.

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that 'nobody here acts like a real Dark Jedi', thats a tad unfair. People act like Dark Jedi, but nobody acts like a Dark Jedi Master. It doesn't take much to be classified as a Dark Jedi, just look at Anakin Skywalker, he was practically a "Dark Jedi" the second he gave in and slaughtered those Tusken Raiders in Attack of the Clones. But, yes, it took a lot more for him to become a Sith Lord and be named Darth Vader. This is where very few of us manage to play our characters properly. We're all perfectly fine at handling the role of Initiate to Jedi Hunter, because the Journeymen are just those who don't walk the path of the Jedi- who walk the path of the dark side.

To go that step further though and actually be indoctrinated as a full Dark Jedi Knight is a little more involved. The easy question to ask to understand this is: why would you? What purpose is there for falling further into the black sea of darkness? Why should you want more power? That's the principle question and the one that we all should have to answer if we want to be able to claim we're still playing our characters properly once we reach the Equites. Its that want of power that causes the corruption. This is as true in real life as it is in Star Wars. At the same time this is the hardest idea to understand without actually being your character. We all prance around with ideas like "If I was in charge this is how I'd do such and such better..." or "I wouldn't let power corrupt me..." and "George Bush is a power freak". The reality though is that unless you're as spiritually pure as Ghandi you'll find out the hard way that power corrupts even the strongest resolve.

That's why its impossible, outright impossible, for any of the people, especially Elders, who claim their character is still a 'nice guy' and only uses the dark side when they need to. I'm sure Anakin Skywalker was a 'nice guy', just go watch The Phantom Menace and see how long he manages to put up with Jar-Jar without Force choking him, but even that little boy managed to be corrupted by the dark side. That's the central lesson of Star Wars. Power corrupts; theres no escaping it.

Its always easy to go "I'd do better if I were president" or something, but we all know deep down that there are very, very, very few people who would actually do a good job when handed that kind of power- least of all ourselves. The Force is the extreme example. It might seem like nothing, but the Force is everything- a Jedi is the most powerful force in the universe. If ordinary people get corrupted just by being in charge of the political movements of a country what do you think being in charge of the power of the universe would do to someone? I'm sure it would have been so easy all along for Obi-Wan and Yoda just to come along to Coruscant one day armed to the teeth with the Force and lightning the [Expletive Deleted] out of Darth Vader and the Emperor- why didn't they? Surely that would have been the peaceful solution? Surely that would have brought peace, justice, an end to tyrany and war? If the Emperor was so powerful how strong would Yoda surely have been had he wielded the Force for aggression? The answer, obviously, is because they were Jedi. They knew that had they done that the next question would be "where would it end?". After thinking "hey, the dark side isn't so bad, we can go andd do all kinds of good things for people this way" where would they have stopped?

Now, yes, this is all rather deep, overly meaningfull, and I clearly have no life. But the point is, to answer the question, "what are dark side values?", the answer is "there aren't any". The dark side is about the abscence of values. Its about self and want and desire and lust. Equally it could be about the want of protecting and saving someone, but such an attachment quickly grows into something more sinister- possessiveness, materialism, greed, fear of loss.

So, closing up, and going back to one of the first things I said, like Mike said, the dark side isn't comparable to being a goth. There isn't some kind of 'stereotype Dark Jedi'.
But, there is a 'stereotype Dark Jedi Master'. They're called Sith Lords.

By the way, Jedi Realists clearly haven't watched the Star Wars films, because their understanding of the Force is greatly incorrect. I'd probably call them wanabe-buddhists more than Jedi.

Quote: "The Force is the Force is the Force. It doesn't suffer from schitzophrenia. It has a will. The dark side means ignoring that will. Putting self before the Force."

It's just two different points of view. we don't ignore the will of the Force, we believe our way is the right way, just as the jedi believe there's is.

Quote: "The dark side is in this case the opposite. If you don't follow the Jedi path then you have no guideance. And yes, the dark side corrupts. Because with the dark side there is self"

So we corrupt ourselves? Who says we should serve others? The "light" Jedi?

Quote:They perform the will of the Force; there is no self in that."
They don't perform the will of the Force they think they are. Some dark Jedi believe that they are doing the right thing, the will of the Force.

Quote: "By the way, Jedi Realists clearly haven't watched the Star Wars films, because their understanding of the Force is greatly incorrect. I'd probably call them wanabe-buddhists more than Jedi."

They interpret the Force as they see it. They don't have to watch Star Wars, most of the ones I know have, but their views are their own.

It might be easier if you see for yourselves.

http://www.forceacademy.com

http://www.thejedi.org

Insightful post, Goat. While not agreeing 100%, I agree 99.5% - I commend you. You'd make a great Jedi.

Very nice Goat, I think you summed up very well what all the rest of us have been trying to get at. I don't agree completely with what you wrote but it does show that you've put some real thought into this so nice job.

As to those people that believe in the force as a religion. I'm not quite sure what to think about them, especially duw to the fact that many of them do fully understand about the nature of the Star Wars universe. They have simply taken a story (well written at times but still a story) and have extrapolated to form a unique set of beliefs and doctrines. In all they have some interesting points and I find it interesting some of the stuff they say...if anyone is interested after reading this thread I would definetly check out those sites. Even if you don't agree with what they say (I don't) it still gives an interesting perspective on the story line we try and follow.

It's just two different points of view. we don't ignore the will of the Force, we believe our way is the right way, just as the jedi believe there's is.

This is one of the bits where you have to turn away from a Dark Jedi's way of thinking for a second and acknowledge what has been established beyond any doubt (aka. said by George Lucas) that the Jedi do follow the will of the Force. Its true that some Dark Jedi might think what they're doing is the right thing to do- again, key example: Anakin Skywalker- but part of the Star Wars mythology is that the Jedi are the ones doing the 'right thing'. Dark Jedi are the bad guys after all, much as we might like to think we're nice and happy and live in a fun land called the Dark Brotherhood, in the real Star Wars universe we're the bad guys.

They don't perform the will of the Force they think they are.

Again, part of the Star Wars mythology simply involves accepting that Jedi do perform the will of the Force. They're the good guys. They're like the Lawful Good characters in a Dungeons & Dragons RPG. Dark Jedi may not be forced to be Chaotic Evil but we're incapable of being Lawful Good.

So we corrupt ourselves? Who says we should serve others? The "light" Jedi?

Well the answer there is probably: civilisation does. Because only through civilisation can one ever hope to find everlasting peace, thats a fairly universal belief in practically every single culture and civilised nation- and I'm talking as much real life here as Star Wars. That's why the Jedi are the 'good guys', becaue they fight for justice and peace. The Dark Jedi corrupt themselves in the same way people such as Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler have throughout history- they all thought they were doing the right thing. I'm sure at the time Hitler thought he was being a really great guy and uniting the world under one honest and just government. But we all know how that ended. Its the same with the dark side.

I am worried as well about the loyalty of the jedi to the dark side. The other day i saw a happy birthday post to the grand master. Would you say happy birthday to darth vader. doubt it. What the hell.

Umm... maybe because we're still real people and because Jac is still a real person who celebrates his birthday?

Star Wars isn't real! Its imaginary! MAKE BELIEVE!

Or... something.

Wow...I actually got through a Goat-epistle. Usually I stop halfway through and try to get my brain back into my head by reading my Organic Chemistry textbook...

Anyway...Spectrum...like Goat said. We're still people. I don't know about you, but I don't walk around with a lightsaber. It would probably start a trend with the weirdos at Berkeley, but I attempt to refrain from doing that.

This is make believe. Have fun with it. The best part is, as any actor can tell you, playing the evil villain is so much fun because you can do whatever the hell you want. You'd never see or hear of Richard III sitting down with a shrink going, "Should I kill my nephews?" And you certainly wouldn't see Darth Vader having tea with the Dalai Lama, something I wouldn't mind doing once in my life.

I have had the pleasure of meeting his Holiness, once when I was a lot younger. My mother is a Historian of Religion (Theology) for Cambridge University, and had taken me and my brother to India to visit ancient Hindu and Buddist sites of worship. I dont remember the encounter greatly, but supposedly I was blessed by the Dalai Lama.

I have to agree with Xanos and Oberst on this issue. We are after all a club of human beings, with feeling and real lives; so when an important event in our life comes up we like to celebrate it with our friends ( in club and out of club). Although I see where you are comming from, IE the In character mode.

Oh and Oberst, Richard IIIrd nephews death in the Tower in inconclusive. Historians claim that Henry Tudor created that tale to villify Richard after the War of the Roses. Just a bit of clarification, I have endured enough of my mothers lectures on the subject through out the years to be well versed on all the historical theories regarding the brothers death..

I really should stop posting these topcis

On second thought they cause fights so maybe I won't stop!

I know, Tib...I was, however, using his character in Shakespeare's play and not the actual King Richard III.

Oh I see. Then please accept my apology for jumping to conclusions. See predator, there is no fight!

Ok...here's my take on playing a dark jedi (I'm NOT talking about the real life religion, btw):

Crix is pretty devious and can be ruthless when needed. He works towards his own goals 99% of the time and when his goals line up with someone else's and helping them makes it easier on him he can (and probably will) help them. He has no problems killing certain people to further those goals but he is just as capible of having a peaceful conversation if it would fit the situation better.

Not all of his goals are entirely personal though. Crix would love to see Taldryan become the dominant clan in the Brotherhood (again). The reason for this is two-fold. First of all, Crix is loyal to his clan and would love to see them gain more power over the Brotherhood. Secondly, if Crix's clan becomes more powerful then by defuly he becomes more powerful.

He has his limits though. Because of his loyalty to Taldryan and Dinarai Crix would not kill the QUA , AED, CON or PCON just to take their position. If there were other factors (ie. bad leader, weakening the clan, ect) Crix would entertain thoughts of killing the current leader(s) out of loyalty to the clan...but if he could put himself in that position afterwards he would be even happier. (Note: That is purely IC, nobody needs to worry about me showing up at their house with a shotgun cause they were a bad leader in an online RPG =P)

So basicly Crix's motivations are expanding his clan's power and expanding his personal power. A lot of the time the two goals will mesh but if they don't he doesn't have any problems working for his own ends.

Crix is definately NOT a dark jedi who kills for the sake of killing. He kills when someone needs to die, but he also realizes that if too many people go missing then he may attract more attention then he wants to.

He does enjoy a bit of carnage every once in a while though =P

I have one problem here. Obviously the force isn't real for one thing and we don't accept midichlorians into our circle of SW, but how is there a "will of the force"? As far as I understand it, it is basically an energy that surrounds us. (Again, unless you accept midichlorians). The force has no mind of its own. Otherwise, it would not need sentient beings to channel itself through. I doubt if it could think on its own, it would need a fingertip to be able to turn itself into lighting.

Therefore, I don't believe that the Jedi are following the will of the force. They are simply using it for good, or what good can come of it. Besides, if the force had a will of its own, then it would be difficult to turn to the "dark side" not easy because the force would try to will you to the "light side".

Just my opinion.

If it is fake then who cares whether we really believe in it or not it doesn't matter.

After listening to many people on IRC and reading the message boards I have to say I am getting worried, do we even follow the dark side anymore?

Point in case, KoToR II I have heard many people saying they played the Light side first (far enough you may say) but some even went as far as saying they were not going to play the dark side?

Another point in case is the groups, I have had many discussion with new leaders saying they try to lead through understanding and communication....

WE ARE DARK JEDI! we rule through fear (Which is kinda difficult in an on-line club) but what about greed? Lust for power? both are good motivators but are rarely used in this new touchy feeley world.

Is there anyone left who truly believes in the dark side?

Thoughts, comments  :w00t:



yeah i believe in the dark side some of you are getting too soft, you predator have yoda as a avatar even though he is a jedi, go find a dark jedi avatar

ok, i believe that there is a dark side...i believe humans cant tap into it...it is possibly our anger...our fury...even jealousy...but then there's lucas's dark side...

I know im a little late to be jumping in here and to be honest my brain is starting to bleed out of my ears, But the point i read a page or two ago abbout possesiveness and fear of loss being dark side traits seems a little harsh. any mother or father can be accused of these when it comes to their children.. but anyways im probably missing the point. its late, theres blood running down my collar now and this Sith needs some rest.. 8oP

(the dark side can allso be justice through revenge. the light can be justice through understanding...i think...)

There's been a lot of discussion about the Jedi being good.

No.

They are neutral. They don't save people just because they need saving, and they don't intervene on things that aren't their duties.

How easily could the Jedi have stopped slavery on Tatooine (think TPM)? But, isn't slavery evil? Wouldn't stopping the slavers, and freeing the slaves be an act of goodness?

Conversely, killing off the tuskens, (who were kidnappers, theives, murderers, and rapists) could have been seen as a good act, right? But it wasn't considered that because of the motive. Anakin was angry, and sought revenge. Not justice, revenge. And because he killed them in revenge, instead of to dispassionately kill them to end the suffering of the native people...

which is another point... fear of reprisal, fear of punishment from the Jedi Council made him conceal his actions...internalizing them, letting the bad feelings fester within, until he told the only person he felt he could trust with it (palpatine).

And the jedi, well, they are tought to let everything go...to have no attachment, so that emotion does not colour their actions.... NOT as anakin says that they should love all things (Anakin's view was flawed to begin with, having been flavoured by lust for Padme, and later, love...which in turn became fear of loss)

So what is the point?
The Jedi don't want to feel... they're too afraid that they will do selfish acts because of it, and are literally afraid of their own power. They train themselves to act selflessly, they brainwash themselves so that no vestige of ego remains, no sense of self.

The Dark Side means feeling, and not being afraid to act on their feelings. Rage, hate, love, lust... Yes, act selfishly, but not necessarily without thought of what happenend next. Look at Palpatine. For whatever reasons, he hated the Jedi. If he gave in to the Dark Side earlier, he would have killed a few Jedi before they swarmed him and took him down. But he was able to temper that anger with the cool head of planning... and was able to manipulate events so that all but a handful of them were killed.

Being Dark Side does not mean ignorant with rage. It just means that you phave your own goals, and drives...and that you're willing to do what you think* it takes to acheive them.

but that's my two cents.


*- you might be horribly, horribly wrong. Anakin's goal was to save Padme, and in his persuit of that goal, caused her demise.

Conversely, killing off the tuskens, (who were kidnappers, theives, murderers, and rapists) could have been seen as a good act, right?



Well in most religions I know killing is generally a bad deed. Maybe there are situations where it is nessesary cause of protecting yourself or others. Sometimes pll can just decide between a bad and a worse deed. Someone is ever the looser, cause even bad ppl have family, have friends.

I know that sounds a bit soft for a dark jedi. O-) Well it's pretty simple at all, killing a bad person don't makes a person a good person and the man who killes a killer is a killer himself.

I hate to say it, but this is pretty patently untrue.
Most religions (and all Judeo-Christians) believe that killing is fine, so long as the person *deserved* it.

And by *deserved* it, it could mean that they were not of the same faith, stole, raped, was raped, etc.

"But Muz, one of the ten commandments reads 'Thou shalt not kill'..."

Bad translation. That phrase more accurately translated would read: 'Thou shalt not commit murder'

The difference between killing and murder? The state kills our heinous criminals with a lethal injection or poisonous gas. Jeffrey Dahmer murdered his prey, then stored them in his freezer and ate bits from time to time. Police, when shot at, return fire, and sometimes will kill their assailant. There was a guy who murdered his girlfriend's parents because they didn't want them together. Cows are killed for steaks and hamburgers. and the list goes on.

The difference is intent.
the result is just as deadly, but it is intent that decides the nature of the act.

Just like the Force.

Well, I'm sorry, I didn't want to discuss on real religion in here cause I guess it don't really fits in here. Maybe there are different views on the things, I just have leared it in religion that way. I remember a couple of scenes where jesus told not to use violence, not even to protect his own person, and I remember the first christian communities preferred to hide or even go into death instead of fighting against the roman empire that was hunting them. But once again, I'm sorry. I guess we shouldn't fight on such a topic and I guess everyone can have a different view on this.

May the force be with you,

Muz makes sense- there's nothing about not killing in any religions. If there was, then religion wouldn't have caused so many wars/conflicts and so much bloodshed throughout history.

But yes- I digress. I concur- the difference between the Dark Side and the Light Side is the intent of the user. Like (to use a simplistic reason) KOTOR. If someone kills to get what they want, they're heading for the Dark Side- if they kill to try and make things better for other people, they're going for the Light Side. There's no great metaphysical debate- it's pretty simple.

The thing is if we really believe in the dark side of the force and i wanna say that i truly belive in this, for me is a way of life this doesent mean that you are a bad person its just a point of view maybe one without too much impediments like the light side and i guess thtats why we are here so.... >:)

Backing up Muz's point:

Take the crusades, for example. The Pope sent Christians to KILL Muslims in Jerusalem. It wasn't considered murder to kill one who wasnt Christian, it was an act of God.

A large reason why the crusades happened was because all of those good Catholics in Europe were fighting and killing each other and the pope wasn't too happy about that. So he looked around and realized that Jerusalem was controlled by the Muslims. The wheeles turned and the lightbulb turned on: he could get all the Catholics to stop fighting each other if he gave them a common enemy, and who better then the people who held their most holy city. Instant crusade...kinda...that's the one paragraph version of how it happened.

All in all, I like the description of good / neutral / evil in the D&D system.

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Description.rtf

Usually I am able to put my rp characters into one of those 9 alignements without having too much trouble.


I copied parts of that document here: (Open Game Content under the Open Game License! So no trouble posting it here)

THE NINE ALIGNMENTS
Nine distinct alignments define all the possible combinations of the lawful–chaotic axis with the good–evil axis. Each alignment description below depicts a typical character of that alignment. Remember that individuals vary from this norm, and that a given character may act more or less in accord with his or her alignment from day to day. Use these descriptions as guidelines, not as scripts.
The first six alignments, lawful good through chaotic neutral, are the standard alignments for player characters. The three evil alignments are for monsters and villains.

Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.

Neutral Good, “Benefactor”: A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them..
Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order.

Chaotic Good, “Rebel”: A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.
Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit.

Lawful Neutral, “Judge”: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.

Neutral, “Undecided”: A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.
Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.
Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion.

Chaotic Neutral, “Free Spirit”: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society’s restrictions and a do-gooder’s zeal.

Lawful Evil, “Dominator”: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
Lawful evil is sometimes called “diabolical,” because devils are the epitome of lawful evil.
Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.

Neutral Evil, “Malefactor”: A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.
Neutral evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.

Chaotic Evil, “Destroyer”: A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
Chaotic evil is sometimes called “demonic” because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil.
Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.


The complete 3.5 basic rules can be found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35

As I've always said, Kaine Mandaala is Lawful Evil.

Manji fluctuates between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil, depending on which situation he's in. And how annoying the n00b he's fighting is.

I still dont understand how someone can join a DARK BROTHERHOOD and not adhere to the astringent rules of that DARK FORCE from which they have apparrently turned to. My Character is completely and totally devoted to the Dark Side, nothing else exists save his hunger to inflict pain, obtain power and glory, and to protect that force through the elimination of those that threaten its leader, in other words those of the Light, whether then be force adept or not. The Brotherhood is the organization for this, it is with this organization that we shall eliminate the light.
As to the selfish qualities of the Darksiders, it is our responsibility to cull ourselves of the weak. It is part of our training in the force, to kill those among us, who show weakness or the ability to change and threaten us because of their knowledge of the DB. We are all servants of the Dark Side, children of the infinate twilight, it is our purpose to be this to the fullest of our ability, if we are not then we should be destroyed by our betters, or those with enough initiative to protect the DB in this way.

Seek illumination through the subjugation of all peoples and Nations,

Myrkal

Im agree with you how we can be in this brotherhood and dont believe in dark side as i said is a path that you choose i dont care about the history the thing is tha dark side shows how you can live with angeer and pain and be good with that or be better with that

Very insightful, Muz. The Jedi are indeed a pack of arrogant hypocrites, denying themselves and standing idly by while chaos rages unchecked across an entire galaxy. They would much prefer to stay cozily in their ivory towers than to help those suffering below them (Invisec on Coruscant for example). They see their power as unnatural, choosing not to use what nature itself has given them, and for what? Does their "benevolence" bring order and peace? Does anyone even respect them in the end (apparently not since a thousand generations worth of Jedi who DIDN'T overthrow the Republic were immediately forgotten once a certain someone cried "assassination attempt")? FEH!

If only some brave souls would stand up and decide that the Jedi should rule the weak. Much less of a headache that way.



Manji fluctuates between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil, depending on which situation he's in.  And how annoying the n00b he's fighting is.




ROFL. Nice.

Chaotic Neutral, “Free Spirit”: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society’s restrictions and a do-gooder’s zeal.

Hmm, that would describe me in real life and it would describe my char.

But back to the point the "jedi" were arrogant even if they deny it. But the main view of how a dark jedi should act is flawed as well, I mean if we are only driven by hate lust or anger than you are no better than a tusken raider. I think in my own opinion that the grey jedi are the ones who have it right.... Well, I will leave it at that for the while.

A Dark Jedi acts on all emotion, not just hatered or fear. Love, discontent, ect. A dark Jedi is a Jedi as he should be. A Dark Jedi is the will of the force.

*Shugs* Fine by me.

I truley believe this. A Dark jedi strips himself of the fog of lies that a light jedi surronds himself with. He realises that he is his own master, and that he controls his destiniy

In the final analysis we all do what we want to do in a given situation. Even those who "sacrifice" or become "martyrs" do so to fulfill in some way their view of themselves. Of course, situations arise in which one does not have control but, to the extent that one does, one does what one wants to do. The philosphical basis, whether it be religious or otherwise, is for analytical purposes at best or propaganda at worst. Either way it is nothing more than footnote. I believe so called "Darksiders" tend to be more in touch with this understanding. To invoke a scene from the movie "Life," it all comes down to who is going to eat whose cornbread.

A final caveat - in the words of Dennis Miller, "I could be wrong."

As darkness abhors light, and light abhors dark...
The universe cannot, must not come to peace.

The Light Jedi are a shadow, ebbing away in the light of our Glory.
Uppon our seeping into the galaxy we will be the dominant over all.
The Jedi included...!!!

Nothing short of a miricale can stop us now.
And there hasn't been one of those in a very long time... :mellow:

i believe in the dark side. it is very independant. plus it gives you more of an adavantage than the light.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Thru passion i gain strenght.
Thru strenght i gain power.
Thru power i gain victory.
Thru victory my chains are broken.

i believe i have the last sent. right...