So, I'm A Dark Jedi And A Bounty Hunter...

And now it's looking like there may be a problem with this, where there wasn't beforehand.

For those who don't know me, hi. I'm Kant Lavar. I started this whole thing in the TIE Corps under the name Jakar Streng, and after a couple years, created a character in the Bounty Hunter's Guild under the name Kant Lavar. As time went on, I retired from the TIE Corps, with Kant Lavar becoming my main character in the EH. I had a couple other guys off and on in varying other SGs (the Senate, the Hammer's Fist, and the Intelligence Directorate), but none of them really lasted. After a while, I decided to make Kant a little bit of a munchkin (and/or a bit of Gary Stu, I'll admit) and have him be in the Dark Brotherhood as well. I joined the Krath (since at that point I had none of the games required for the other orders) and had a good time of things in Clan Naga Sadow, eventually hitting DJK.

I had to go on an extended leave of absence and came back just in time for the DJB's split from the EH. I ended up staying in the EHDB, mostly so I could continue to have a character in the BHG as the same guy. (Not that anyone in the BHG would have cared, in all actuality, but whatever.) After a while doing that, with the same Kant Lavar being in both the EHDB and the BHG, I had to go an exetended LOA again, this time while I was in training for my current job with the US Army.

So then after nine months, I manage to get my hands on my own computer and an internet connection, and one of the first things I do is I go to reactivate my BHG membership. I also reactivate myself in the EHDB, but once I find out the BHG has left the EH (to insultingly little fanfare on the EH side of things, I would add), I let the EHDB side of things drop, come up with a vague reason why, and go back to sitting around in the BHG alone.

Last week, after a fairly decent discussion in my Kabal mailing list (Kabals are roughly equivalent to Clans, for the uninitiated) about how the non-EH DJB is sucking people's time away from the BHG (which is somewhat quiescent of late), how the orders are now more for RP purposes and, yes, I could join the Obbies which I'd thought Kant would have been more suited for in the first place, so I did. And now here I am. After finding the Wiki, I went and started working on the DJB Wiki entry for Lavar, and started working on one for his primary ship, the Blackbird.

Then this happened.

D'oh.

Now, don't get me wrong, I can understand people's first reactions about this. Some random guy shows up and automatically has at least one multi-million credit ship? I'd be a little suspicious myself. But in the BHG, multi-million credit ships are not only not uncommon, they're practically the norm, especially for people who have been around for over 6 years. (Wow. I had to make sure I saw that right on my BHG roster entry. Anyhoo...) The reason for it is, when they were looking at the old SSL, the BHG Commission realized that even very new members, with very little effort could create ships that could outfly the Millenium Falcon and blow up a Star Destroyer singlehanded. This was considered a problem, and short of reworking the value of a credit in the BHG and therefore screwing up everyone's rank until they got that fixed, they decided to do the much easier thing - make a ship much much more expensive to build.

So, anyway, my question boils down to this: Am I being totally unreasonable here? During my first tenure in the DB, nobody had a problem with my character actively being a bounty hunter - granted, that was while lots of people had characters in both the DB and another subgroup - and now there's problems. I'm not unwilling to make concessions and compromises, but I really wanted to have Kant Lavar regain his Force powers, have to come to grips with being at the bottom of the ladder after being, while not on top, not that far down it either, etc.

So, while I think I'm being reasonable about this, I figured since I probably have a certian bias on the matter I'd place the question at the feet of the general membership. I'm not looking to incite anything, insult anyone, or anything. I'm just asking if I'm being a total idiot by expecting to be able to bring my character from another former subgroup of the EH here, as I did when both groups fell under the EH umbrella.

Well just based on a quick look it doesn't look that much better than what others claim to have except maybe the speed and the stealth, but as far as I could see the stealth is useless when it moves so I don't see that being a problem.

If it was the only one you had, and the only real item you possessed that was of any value, it'd be closer to acceptable. I was under the impression that it's one of many, and according to the link you supplied, there's a whole host of items with huge pricetags. Included on it are four starships with the average price being just over the value listed for this Blackbird. Some of the items are listed at prices that cannot honestly be plausible unless a Star Wars Imperial Credit is the intergalactic equivalent to the Japanese Yen (which is currently 119 = $1 USD).

Multi-Million Credit thinking is what kills the virtual economy. With a ship like that out there, we have very little stance on a building that system with any sort of hint of realism. If that is an "average ship" and it's price is x million credits, that sets the bar unrealistically high. If you don't quite believe what I'm saying, go play SWG. Everything is x thousand, x hundred thousand or x million credits in a game where getting credits is tough.

I know most people who read this will think "but who cares? We don't have money and it's all make believe anyway!" but I'll let the cat out of the bag, if anything to explain my rationale. The club IS trying to calculate some sort of currency system, and stuff like this is throwing it all off.

Honestly, I understand and on a lot of levels I agree with you. A friggin' comlink for ten thousand? A little bit ridiculous, I agree.

But here's the thing, and I'm repeating myself because, apparently, you missed it. (And given the size of that last post I can't honestly blame you.) When the current incarnations of the BHG's Mall system were being created, the BHG leadership hit a quandry. Members with only a year or so in had multiple starfighters that could outrun anything in the galaxy, could destroy Star Destroyers singlehanded, and owned enough armaments to supply a small army. This, they reasoned, was a problem and very unrealistic, and they only saw two real solutions to it. First, rework the value of the credit and try and restore some sort of economic balance. (Part of the problem was that was around the time the EH Internet Office had a JavaScript version of sabacc online and BHG members could - and did - use that to artificially inflate their credit balances without increasing their rank. We also had BHG Lotto for a time, and that didn't help matters either. Hell, I did the math last night and I myself have over 34 million in BHG credits worth of stuff that runs over the amount of credits I've earned towards rank. But I digress). Reworking the credit value would have meant everything anyone owned would have to be refunded, the exact formulae worked out to convert the old credit amount to the new one, a new set of rank levels to be worked out, and then the new system applied to everyone. While this was, in my opinion, the better option, it was deemed too complex and too fraught with opportunities for people to start, for lack of a better word, bitching.

The second option, which they went with, was to deflate the value of the credit. This was partially done by increasing the cost of individual items beyond what they had been in the past. The second way they did this, which is why ships in the BHG are so expensive, is to force ship creation to become more complex. In the previous version of Stalker Shipyards, one only had to worry about how much power items took up, and how much internal and external space something took. Now, we have the "bay" system, where each ship has discrete amounts of space for different types of equipment, such as avionics, armor, weapons, cargo, warheads, engines, and others.

In short, I get the fact that the BHG credit system is a little skewed when compared to others, and I'm pretty sure just about everyone in the Guild would agree. And I really don't worry about the relative credit value of things in my RP for just those purposes. Really, all I want, and all I ask, is to be allowed to maintain my IC "dual membership," if you will. I don't mean to impugn on any systems the DB has or will have in place, but I have a character who I enjoy playing who has a well-established history, and I don't want to lose that. I don't think I'm asking a lot, but that's why I started this thread, to see if people thought that was unreasonable.

So they pretty much have their own credit system is what you're saying. They are treating it like the stereotypical Peso. Though frankly 1 Peso (1/10th of $1 USD) is better than 1 Yen (1/120th of $1 USD) these days, it's thought of as completely worthless.

With that in mind, it's safe to say that the values listed on your roster of items are probably 4-5 times higher than they should be? Or there is a slightly more complex equation, like 1 IC = 4.86 BHG ICs... which would bring the good old `Bird down to around 1.7M, which - considering all the upgrades, the Real-World cost of fighter jets and military craft - is not unreasonable.

I'm really not trying to be difficult about this, but it's all part of bringing SW Realism back into play. For too long all these online clubs have let the fantasy aspect run amok. Even the DJB itself is rather unrealistic in the Star Wars sense -- always there are two. Here there are two thousand (plus).

Yeah, you pretty much got it in one. To be perfectly honest, RP-wise I regard the BHG credit value of the gear I use as immaterial (I keep coming back to that 10,000 credit comlink and scratching my head). You probably aren't that far off on your 1:5 ratio - but I've never really considered it in that level of detail because quite frankly I've never used the credit value of my gear in any sort of RP sense. (If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably something of a sliding scale, as I can't believe that a comlink would cost 2,000, let alone 10,000. However, for some of the gear, like the more esoteric "Special Edition" weapons, their prices are somewhat believable as the flavor text for them says they're one of only a handful that exist in the galaxy.

But still, if the fix is as simple as me ignoring the BHG credit value, that's not a problem whatsoever for me.

Well said in that last paragraph Kaine. Just thought i'd say that.

Kaine, read the Sith'Ari prophecy

When Darth Vader killed the Emperor, and then died himself, he ended Bane's destructive Rule of Two. Thus fulfilling the Chosen One prophecy (Bringing balence to the Force), and the Sith'Ari prophecy (Destroying the Sith, but through their destruction made them stronger than ever.)

So thats for the anti-realism as in member count in the DJB...however concerning credits and possessions, still a bit unrealistic there.

Technically, we're Dark Jedi. Hence the Dark Jedi Brotherhood part

Sith are just an Order here, just like Krath, who are almost certainly extinct- yet we have them.

For Realism, technically, we'd have to be confined too one planet on an arm of the galaxy near oblivion, in my opinion. I mean in our time frame, we have the Empire New Republic and the Chiss Accendancy, and our planets are very sporadic, some one would more then likely come accross Dark Jedi moving between these planets, no?

Of course its a big galaxy, so maybe the Sith were never defeated, and do live on some estranged arm of the galaxy, wiped from the Republic database eons ago, but we dont know that

Though Kaine's actual point is flawed as Dismal pointed out, its more so because in the Star Wars sense, Dark Jedi and Sith are two seperate entities. Really we dont breach the rule of two, as technically only Sarin and the DGM would be Sith Lord and Apprentice, the rest of us would i supose be the opposite of palpatines Dark Side Elite and such. (Funny thing is, GM is actually a Jedi rank ;p).

I think the rule of two is only broken by a Sith with Darth Krayt, i'm not sure, some one geeky like Goat would know. Technically, after Darth Vader dies, the next Sith Lord would be Jacen Solo, and if you've read the books, there's still a sense of the rule of two. Lumiya trains Jacen, and Jacen wants to train Ben. Technically we couldnt have a Dark Lord of the Sith anyway, because when the Sith are known to exist, its usually because of a canon DLoS

Complicated stuff. It really at matter of opinion for alot of members depending on thier knowledge of the Star Wars Universe.

My opinion is canon for the win ;p

(Oh and in responce to the Sith Ari Prophercy, a number of Sith can claim this, if its not actually a cycle which happens every few thousand years)

let me just explain this insofar as Star Wars Realism is concerned:

Films first. Everything else a distant second.

MIne wins then

Technically a Dark Jedi Brotherhood could not exist during any of the films, plus we're based like 18-20 years after Endor arnt we? I think the films have very little baring here.

In my point of view, the films were a mere template, considering Lucas has had a hand in everything to some extent, even though other people expanded it, the club wouldnt function of the mere realism of of the films.

For instance there were only two. There wouldnt have been some mass of Dark Jedi, not that it isnt possible, in the comics the Sith "Rediscovered" the Old Republic. Problem is, we wouldnt exactly be lost, as we have an Imperial influence on ships, which means that fictionally, some one would know of our existance, and if there was a horde of psycho murdering Dark Jedi who could turn on anyone to get more power, would you keep it a secret?

My point is, Jedi are the popular thing amongst Star Wars geeks, and so are Sith/Dark Jedi, masses of Sith/Dark Jedi wouldnt officially exist in any time frame bar the Sith War Era, and Darth Krayt or whatever's era. Two era's in which the movies have very little consequence apart from being the future and the past

I mean, some what we do have to go abit non fictional to make it work, but perhaps we've gone a little to far from the fictional

"Destructive" Rule of Two?!

Have you read Darth Bane?

I just read that from Wookieepedia

The book?

I'm a real-life Dark Sith master, yet no one will pay attention to me and my uber powers.

I'll say it again - Films above all else. Official Novels a distant second. Things like Wookieepedia a trailing third.

Hell I believe the games hold a higher level of credibility than the books.

I'll say it again - Films above all else. Official Novels a distant second.

Then we should be somewhere around the battle of Yavin, not over two decades later.

As cannon goes: Movies ----> Books ----> Games ----> other sources

Any conflict between the movies and the books would be decided by the movies, but the extended universe would detail anything not covered by the movies.

Also, while I don’t want to start a Movie/EU debate, for the record: Lucas has had a hand in every corner of the extended universe, from allowing major plot devices, to disallowing them (as can be seen with the hands off policy on Yoda’s race and the lack of anymore Wookie Jedi) to requesting them (Like the death of Chewbacca).

You don’t have to read the extended universe books (lord knows I don’t) but reading Star Wars source books (like the essential guide and new essential guide series) will keep you up to speed on events, personalities and technology.

Lastly in defense of the Wookiepedia, they don’t develop anything, they only record information from Star Wars sources and believe me, the site is frequented by more than enough Star Wars nerds to keep them honest (which in all reality is the strength of the wiki system).

@Seph: The "destructive" rule of two i read from Wookieepedia

Now, when I tried getting a personal ship through my character's history I was flat out told 'no.'

Just though I'd add that fact.

I have one...

As someone that once ran the Mall for an extended period of time, I've always personally discouraged use of Mall items, especially ships, outside the BHG. Most of the things in it have too many problems that have never been adequately corrected due to various issues regarding the admin of the system. For example, I wonder why everyone has a problem with the credit value but not the 230 MGLT speed of the ship. An A-wing is supposed to be blindingly fast at 120 MGLT, and this is nearly twice that. The Mall works best when using it's stats in comparison to other items it creates, and unfortunately breaks down when used in conjunction with other source material.

I'm referring to the thought of prices for things when I make my next statement, which is:

Until the DB has a currency and item system, he should be able to have whatever he wants. Sure, it isn't realistic, but neither is anything in this place. Kant at least has reasonable explanations for why he has his stuff, whereas other are like, "Well, I have an uber-mega castle of doom and I'm the King of the universe."

The only thing I would do Kant, is tone down certain stats. Mainly the speed. And if credits are going to be that much of an issue, take everything in the BHG and hack off a few zeroes from the right end of the number.

My character in the DB is also my character in the BHG, although later in the timeline.

As for "canon" which we can discuss and argue all day long, the games are way less reliable than the books. To tell you the truth, my SW canon list goes like this:

Original Trilogy - Novels - Comics - Prequel Trilogy - Video Games

Honestly, if we're a club that exists during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, then nobody can say the novels don't mean anything. Yeah, some of the novels were crap, but out of over 100 novels, you're going to get a few crappy ones. I personally enjoy the newer books.

Anyways, instead of telling him that a ship is OMG too expensive, help make a credit and mall system in the manner that the BHG has. That way, it will be easier to control the ridiculousness of what each DB member has.

Until a cohesive system is put into place for items, possessions and other economic concerns, we should rely on common sense, enforced by the DB leadership (BTL’s, House and Clan Summit, Dark Council etc.) if needs be.

Wait a second... I think that thanks to my uber skillz, I've managed to miss something very important in the initial creation of things here.

The DJB is set at a time about equivalent to the Vong invasion in the canon EU timeline?

Hell, problem solved. Lavar retired from the BHG, sold off most of his stuff to maintain the lifestyle he had been accustomed to, and the only ship he has is... well, I'll figure that one out later. But this changes things, more than likely for the easier.

In the immortal words of Homer Simpson, "D'oh!" X-)

EDIT/UPDATE:

Yeah, I'm going with the above. The Blackbird is being toned down (right now, the speed has been dropped significantly and the SSL Semi-Cloak is at least temporarily gone), and my character page will reflect the change in time period, Lavar's retirement from the BHG, selling off of equipment, and however he rediscovered his Force powers.

God, I'm glad I caught the whole timeline thing now, instead of, say, a year from now. Then I'd have a lot more retconning to do than I do now... *smacks himself in the face with a spork*

I'll say it again - Films above all else. Official Novels a distant second. Things like Wookieepedia a trailing third.

Hell I believe the games hold a higher level of credibility than the books.


You realise Kyle Katarn has single-handedly killed more cannon fodder Sith than any Jedi in any of the books?

Anyways, instead of telling him that a ship is OMG too expensive, help make a credit and mall system in the manner that the BHG has. That way, it will be easier to control the ridiculousness of what each DB member has.




Gee, you think?




We've been working on it. A lot.

We're just trying to reign in some of the more extravagant people before the system goes live and they start bitching and moaning, because there will not be any way to break the system and end up rich beyond reason (like the aforementioned sabacc bug).

And before anyone asks, we're not releasing an expected time frame. The plan we're using requires more hours than anyone could imagine, and from what our test subjects have said, blows the other clubs possessions systems out of the water.

And that's all I'll say on the matter.

In a nutshell, everyone gets a Tribble. You can only have one tribble at a time, and they are all of equal size, weight and intelligence. Color is all that varies, but no one color is more or less prevalent than any other.

Everyone is also issued a standard military vehicle shaped like an avocado. It's armed with minimal firepower - enough to defend itself and get away. In the event of its destruction, everyone gets 2 oz of guacamole.