Why does George change the story

Shadow

13-02-2006 08:50:07

ok so far i have found 2 discrepancies in the film story line, if u know of any more please put them here for discussion.

Boba fett: Background story -a man named Jaster mereel, exiled law enforcer form unknown planet, joins storm trooprs, leaves and becomes a bounty hunter and trains with mandalorians, takes name Boba fett.
Film - Clone son of Jango fett (a character that appears no where in any back history, rather like Jar Jar but lets not get started with him)

The death star: Background story - Super weapon designed by Bevil Lelisk and his team at the maw installation under the direction of Tarkin, built at the Penal planet despayre, first test of weapon blew up that said planet.
Film - super weapon created by genosians (another new character/species)plans given to darth tyranus, who passes them to sideus, death star is then constructed at the end of EpIII

Ok this is a brief look into them, if u want any more info on these just ask, ok so whats George up to with these and any others i may not have found yet?

Kaine Mandaala

13-02-2006 11:58:49

ok so far i have found 2 discrepancies in the film story line, if u know of any more please put them here for discussion.

Boba fett: Background story -a man named Jaster mereel, exiled law enforcer form unknown planet, joins storm trooprs, leaves and becomes a bounty hunter and trains with mandalorians, takes name Boba fett.
              Film - Clone son of Jango fett (a character that appears no where in any back history, rather like Jar Jar but lets not get started with him)

The death star: Background story - Super weapon designed by Bevil Lelisk and his team at the maw installation under the direction of Tarkin, built at the Penal planet despayre, first test of weapon blew up that said planet.
              Film - super weapon created by genosians (another new character/species)plans given to darth tyranus, who passes them to sideus, death star is then constructed at the end of EpIII

Ok this is a brief look into them, if u want any more info on these just ask, ok so whats George up to with these and any others i may not have found yet?



Jango/Boba Fett: Backstory is irrelevant, and George will change it as he sees fit. I have the feeling that the backstory was something to just stop questions on a seemingly insignificant character. Aside from being the bounty hunter that turns Han Solo over to Jabba the Hutt and his three-four lines of dialog, he doesn't do enough for all the praise he gets.

As for the Death Star, nothing says it wasn't in production at the Maw when the plans were in Dooku's hands on Geonosis. We see the construction briefly, under the watch of Tarkin, at the end of E3 but it never says where that is.

Malik

13-02-2006 12:34:30

also you have to remember the back story about boba and the death star in the books weren't written by lucas, so he doesn't have to go with that.
It's his universe he can change whatever he want no matter what the books say :P

Devani

13-02-2006 12:59:50

There is one discrepancy that I remember though...why does Leia say she can remember her mother if her mother died at her birth?

Malik

13-02-2006 13:44:55

maybe she means her adopted mom?

Halcyon

13-02-2006 13:57:34

Yeah...her adopted mother may have died when Leia was still very young. The adopted mother has never been really mentioned later on...only Bail has

Tarax Kor

13-02-2006 14:43:44

There is one discrepancy that I remember though...why does Leia say she can remember her mother if her mother died at her birth?



Actually... it's a rare case, but some people CAN remember their first time 'out'. Usually it's blurry and just flashes/glimpses and not anything concrete... but it does happen.





....but that's too much of a stretch for George's mess-up. :P

Aghasett

13-02-2006 15:47:49

Watching ANH, 7 bits always stick out for me as retroactive continuity errors:

-The biggest: Obi-wan not remembering R2 and C-3PO.

-Lars Owen, when first purchasing the droids, not remembering R2 and C-3PO. Wasn't 3PO built in his own home?

-Leia: "Gen. Kenobi, you served my father in the Clone Wars..." Really? Seems to me Organa wasn't even in Kenobi's pay-grade, let alone issuing orders to Jedi. Bail must've been telling his daughter some tall tales about the good old days.

-The "Final Duel": By comparison to the duel on Mustafar, the Death Star duel between Vader and Kenobi looks like a sparring session at padawan day camp -- really weak.

-Chewy: Maybe he never met Kenobi face to face before ANH, but having served w/ Yoda, he must've known him by reputation.

-Han: On the Falcon, when he says "I've seen alotta things, but an all-consuming Force...puh-lease..." But the 1000 year-old Jedi Council was in existence when Han was a small child. Jedi powers were an established fact throughout the galaxy. But Han wasn't aware of that? And where's Chewy saying "ya know something Han, I've actually seen it. There was this little green dude I once worked with..." or something.

-The Death Star: A huge project to be sure, but in ANH it's just been completed and it's making its first test run. In RotS its construction looks to be about 40% complete. The beginning of it's construction occurred some time between Ep. II and Ep. III. Ergo, unless there was a major labor strike in between, that sucker should've been completed a long time before ANH.

Malik

13-02-2006 16:08:53

Well, about the droids, I'm sure there are millions of droids that look just like 3PO and R2 in the galaxy so maybe they didn't think more of it when they saw them?

And the two duels, well both were old men in ANH, not to forget the difference in movie effects. :P

And if the jedi order was only around while Han was a little kid then he might not have heard about it at that time so never seen a jedi either.

Can't help you with the others.

Tarax Kor

13-02-2006 16:31:35

Organa was one of Palpatine's top aides, in a sense. One of the most senior Senators on the Senate, and he was on the Advisory Council. So... technically Organa had a big hand in the political side of things.


With Chewie... no. The only Jedi on Kashyyyk was Yoda. And there was no 'telling tales of', it was just preparing for battle. I'm sure Chewie would've remembered Yoda... but he had no contact with Obi-Wan Kenobi. At all.

With Han... it's established in the books that Han was for all intents and purposes a slave for the first 18 years of his life. He lived on a ship and was trained to be a thief and a crook under a ruthless con artist. And since he's only 10 years older than Luke+Leia, that means he was born around the time of PM. Meaning basically, if he lived a very secluded lifestyle, that by the time he escaped his 'employer' the Empire was almost 10 years into existance. Yeah it's a stretch, but it explains his ignorance of the Force.

Also, you have to realize that not all of the Galaxy believed in the Force. Sure, they saw the Jedi and all, but they didn't acknowledge their abilites.

Kaine Mandaala

13-02-2006 17:18:09

Watching ANH, 7 bits always stick out for me as retroactive continuity errors:

-The biggest: Obi-wan not remembering R2 and C-3PO.


It has been nearly 20 years, and he's been alone in the desert most of this time. People forget minor details.

-Lars Owen, when first purchasing the droids, not remembering R2 and C-3PO. Wasn't 3PO built in his own home?
3PO was built by Anakin on Tatooine, but nowhere near the Lars homestead.

-Leia: "Gen. Kenobi, you served my father in the Clone Wars..." Really? Seems to me Organa wasn't even in Kenobi's pay-grade, let alone issuing orders to Jedi. Bail must've been telling his daughter some tall tales about the good old days.
"Served" is a rather loose term - being that Bail was on the Senate, and the Jedi Council in essence worked for the Senate... it's a stretch but technically correct.

-The "Final Duel": By comparison to the duel on Mustafar, the Death Star duel between Vader and Kenobi looks like a sparring session at padawan day camp -- really weak.
It's been nearly 20 years and neither of them have had anyone to practice with. But I agree - compared to the fight that made Anakin into that suit-wearing monstrosity the ANH duel was weak.

-Chewy: Maybe he never met Kenobi face to face before ANH, but having served w/ Yoda, he must've known him by reputation.

-Han: On the Falcon, when he says "I've seen alotta things, but an all-consuming Force...puh-lease..." But the 1000 year-old Jedi Council was in existence when Han was a small child. Jedi powers were an established fact throughout the galaxy. But Han wasn't aware of that? And where's Chewy saying "ya know something Han, I've actually seen it. There was this little green dude I once worked with..." or something.

For the Chewbacca bits I'm just going to assume he's been with Han long enough to just let it go. "Let that guy put his foot in his mouth" Chewie thinks.

-The Death Star: A huge project to be sure, but in ANH it's just been completed and it's making its first test run. In RotS its construction looks to be about 40% complete.  The beginning of it's construction occurred some time between Ep. II and Ep. III. Ergo, unless there was a major labor strike in between, that sucker should've been completed a long time before ANH.
The outer structure was about 40% complete at the end of ROTS. There is a lot of internal crap to get done, though 20 years worth of internal crap? I doubt it. Plus nothing in ANH says they just tightened the last lugnut when Vader arrives. In an engineering/construction sense, the "new" Death Star could have been fully uilt up to a year before put into use by the Imperial Navy.

Xanos

13-02-2006 17:43:07

Jango/Boba backstory: while the original Boba Fett story does clash it comes from the time before the EU was made official, from which there is quite a bit of material that was trashed after they decided they wanted the EU to be consistent. In the EU post-AOTC, Jaster Mareel was the leader of the Mandalorians a few decades before TPM. Jango was his protege.

Death Star: at face value it potentially an issue, but there actually is nothing in the films to suggest the designs were not made or improved by Bevel Lemelisk. In respect of building time, the scene at the end of ROTS may not necessarily have occured at the end of ROTS, its possible that was a scene from a few months or years later. Its also possible that wasn't Death Star I, but just one of the many prototypes they built in the Maw first. We also don't actually know how long the Death Star had been finished in ANH, maybe Tarkin had taken it for a spin around the galaxy first, blowing up random planets for kicks?

Leia's mother: as said by others, for all we know Bail's wife dies as well, which might happen in the upcoming Coruscant Nights series. Plus as Tarax said, its also possible she may have been refering to Padme, nothing actually says she didn't know she was adopted, they might just have made up a fake story as to where they adopted her from.

Obi-Wan and the droids: on one hand, why should he? Droids are droids so there isn't any guarentee he'd remember them two decades later, would we recognise a vacuum cleaner just because we used to own it? Its true droids prpobably have more sentimental value, but actually Obi-Wan was meant to not be that pro-droid, and never understood why Anakin cared so much about R2, so its possible he never really 'bonded' with them enough to remember them. Its also true he was just lying to Luke, so as to not have to say "oh yeah, 3PO was built by your fath.... oh wait... crap."

Own Lars and the droids: this I think is the same story as Obi-Wan. He may not have remembered them, they were only droids after all, he'd never even met R2 except for maybe a few minutes when Anakin came that one time. 3PO was just a plain gold protocol droid so theres no real reason for them to remember him. Cliegg Lars probably would, Owen may never have cared much for the droids for all we know. Its again possible as with Obi-Wan, even more so in Owen's case perhaps, that he just didn't want to mention anything if it involved Anakin's true past.

Bail and Obi-Wan: well, strictly speaking, the Jedi served the Republic, by means of serving the Senate, so in a way he did. It could also just be put down to political sucking up on Leia's part, by trying to be more polite than was necessarily true.

Final Duel: thats what thirty years of SFX improvements get you, this is why I actually prefer the novels as I can use my own imagination. It is true though that as Darth Vader he was slower and used a different lightsaber Form than as Anakin Skywalker, though admittedly that still isn't a particuarly convincing argument for how slow it was. As far as Obi-Wan goes you could just say he was defending rather than going all out to kill his friend, combined with the fact he was just old and worn out (not that that is so true given how athletic Dooku was at an age older than Obi-Wan was in ANH). The truth is that in ANH Lucas imagined the gyroscopic effects of a lightsaber to be serious enough that the weapon was 'heavy' to use, something they changed by the time of ESB.

Chewy and Obi-Wan: Obi-Wan didn't look the same though and there's no real guarentee Chewy knew that much about the Jedi, its only an assumption that he probably would, but it doesn't mean he couldn't have not. Though I think (not totally certain) that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan helped Chewy's father at one point, which would imply Chewy should have known him by name, but again, thats EU, as well as still not concrete evidence that he'd know the name. Plus, that was Obi-Wan Kenobi, this was Ben Kenobi, for all we know Kenobi might have been a common enough surname.

Han and the Force: well a lot of people didn't think that much of the Force when Han was growing up, thats the whole point behind why people were willing to buy Palpatine's story about the Jedi rebellion and elect him Emperor. The Empire had also been waging a twenty year propaganda campaign, that may not even be a full generatio but its surprising what twenty years of brainwashing can do. The media can turn us against individual politicians or countries who we may have previously liked or trusted just by throwing a series of damning stories at us. I'm sure after twenty years people would have started to believe the lies the government had put out. In real life people lose their faith, convert to other religions, etc, so its not beyond people to change their fundamental beliefs on a whim.

Shadow

14-02-2006 04:49:55

going back to the point that george lucas has nothing to do with the books and the back stories, that is wrong, he has to authorise all books and back story issues before they are published, this is to prevent any old rubish being produced, ok he may not personaly read them all but some one from lucas arts who is in the know does. you will find this stated in some of the early productions by bantam books

Malik

14-02-2006 05:39:45

but if you read the first paragraph of Xanos's post you'll see it wasn't always like that.

Shadow

14-02-2006 07:10:48

what r u on abouit the first part of that post has nothing to do with what i just said, i was refering to kaines first comment.

Malik

14-02-2006 07:14:48

Jango/Boba backstory: while the original Boba Fett story does clash it comes from the time before the EU was made official, from which there is quite a bit of material that was trashed after they decided they wanted the EU to be consistent. In the EU post-AOTC, Jaster Mareel was the leader of the Mandalorians a few decades before TPM. Jango was his protege.


That's what I was referring to and that has everything to do with what you said, when the first books were written Lucas didn't have to approve them so the writers could write whatever they wanted to, so Lucas never approved the Boba Fett backstory and thus it's not official.

Shadow

14-02-2006 08:24:45

well actualy he did, if u go to Jeremy Bulocks home page you can find both of the official backgrounds for boba fett, the fet background was not thought up till later in the series of starwars books

Kaine Mandaala

14-02-2006 08:27:40

what r u on abouit the first part of that post has nothing to do with what i just said, i was refering to kaines first comment.




Ok first - I never said Lucas had nothing to do with the books. Most of what I was getting at with my first post was that Lucas had no idea what he wanted, so he made it up. Years later, when he wanted it all to match, he changed his story. Did you know Jedi where supposed to be known as Whill? That Mace Windu was really the original jedi mentor (instead of Obi-Wan)? That it was once the adventures of Luke Starkiller? Probably not - Lucas changed the story as he saw fit. I'm sure he had no idea what he wanted to do with Boba Fett. Seriously - he's a background character... No more significant than General Veers. When the character suddenly got popular and people started asking questions, I'm sure George just made something up. Years later he realized he needed to change that story to fit his new plan.

Second the company is LucasFILM not LucasARTS. LucasFILM is responsible for and owner of everything Star Wars related, including creating and running the game company LucasARTS in 1982. LucasFILM was established in 1971 with the release of THX 1138.

Malik

14-02-2006 08:36:02

Don't forget that lightsabers were initially supposed to be the weapons carried by stormtroopers :P

Shadow

14-02-2006 08:36:55

ok, sorry i appear to have got the wrong message from your post, and the Lucas Art thing was a whoopsie, i meant Lucas Film. and i didnt know those things, there actualy very interesting, i though the Starkiller think was just a rumour, cos the name comes up in I jedi. I know he has the right to change stuff, but sudnt he make sure that stuff aint been done about it already, i know Jeremy Bullock was very upset about the change to his character, he mentioned it on his site, though i aint looked at it recently, rumour has it that this upset was one of the reasons he was included in EPIII

Kaine Mandaala

14-02-2006 11:37:39

I feel bad for Jeremy Bullock on one hand - he was known as Boba Fett for so long, launched into legendary status along with David Prowse, Peter Mayhew, Anthony Daniels and Kenny Baker. On the other hand, he still got paid for his performance, and even though they replaced his voice in ESB/ROTJ, you can still see him as one of the Imperial officers ;)

Yeah it sucks to have the character you've been associated with for so long just get changed because George can't get his story straight, but that's Hollywood, really.

I think the Lightsaber as stormtrooper weapons thing is just silly. I have seen images of base ST's holding them, but also it's kind of misinterpreted from one McQuarrie drawing with Luke wearing a very ST looking helmet.

Shadow

15-02-2006 04:16:44

actualy i read something just yesterday on an rpg website about stormies with sabers, some sort of atempt by Palps to create dark side stormies with sabers

p.s. which imp officer does he play

Kaine Mandaala

20-02-2006 12:49:15

actualy i read something just yesterday on an rpg website about stormies with sabers, some sort of atempt by Palps to create dark side stormies with sabers

p.s. which imp officer does he play



He's the blond guy that grabs Leia when she's screaming to Luke as he arrives on Bespin.

"Luke! It's a trap!"

Xanos

20-02-2006 18:34:01

From what I understand I think they retconed the original Boba Fett story about him being a stormtrooper that quit the Empire to be a guy who just pretended to be Boba Fett but wasn't the real Boba Fett or something. Its a lame excuse but it works at least. Its not the only example. There are quite a few 80s stories that got canned when they officialised the EU. The ancient Marvel comics are a good example, they've kept a few parts, even expanded on some a lot (Lumiya being a good example, though thats largely due to fan demand), but most of the Marvel stuff has just been washed away and forgotten. The same is true of a lot of stuff from the old WEG RPG, though theres also a lot from the WEG RPG that has been kept, but its been very much a case-by-case thing, with LucasFilm keeping what they liked and throwing out the rest.

But if you look hard enough of course you'll find errors, nothings going to be perfect when theres that much to keep track of, but by large the inconsistencies are only tiny issues. Its amusing really how much some people get worked up about, if you ever read the literature forums on www.theforce.net the people there go nuts over the most stupid things. They chased one of the authors away (quite a few of the authors actually post there) over the size of the Clone army... something so rediculously trivial, a number, a meaningless number, yet some of the retards there decided to have a massive, about 70 page long, rant at Karen Traviss because they hated her figures for the army and claimed it was far too small. That's gratitude for you.

Like Kaine said though, a lot of the big u-turns were made by Lucas himself. The ages of people in ANH is the easiest example to show... as he originally planned for the Empire to be 30 or 40 years old, when it ended up only being 19.

Shadow

21-02-2006 04:40:29

thanks for those points, it seems that this topic is starting to blow away my concepst of SW universe, oh and kain cheres for the pic, i always wondered which one he was, but all the pics of him i seen are much older so i didnt recognise him

Baron Zarco

18-03-2006 15:54:23

Kaine is correct and said it all when he said that Lucas owns the story and can do what he wants. But, I cannot help but say that sounds a lot like Eric Cartman's "Whatever, I'll do what I want!" Maybe we will find out at some point when the stories are re-written for the 1000th time that George Lucas is Eric Cartman. Or is is vice versa?

At any rate, Lucas' "right" to re-write begs the question of whether it is in good taste or wise or at the expense of the "story." I suppose that reasonable people can have reasonable differences on that. I for one, though, can say unequivocably that Lucas lost a lot of my admiration when he re-wrote Satr Wars to ANH and included Greedo shooting first. Yes, Lucas has a right to insert his sissified political beliefs and philosophies into his work. I would argue, however, that Solo shooting first was the mark of his character, ruthless when confronted with his own livliehood and survival. His transformation to the hero who came back and got Vader off Luke so Luke could fire the "magic shot" was, in my opinion, an important element of the story. It occurs to me that Solo shooting first made that "transformation" all the more dramatic.

Again, no, it is not my story but I feel comfortable in stating my opinion even if I do not own the story.

Kal

06-07-2006 03:05:49

Watching ANH, 7 bits always stick out for me as retroactive continuity errors:

-The biggest: Obi-wan not remembering R2 and C-3PO.

-Lars Owen, when first purchasing the droids, not remembering R2 and C-3PO. Wasn't 3PO built in his own home?

-Leia: "Gen. Kenobi, you served my father in the Clone Wars..." Really? Seems to me Organa wasn't even in Kenobi's pay-grade, let alone issuing orders to Jedi. Bail must've been telling his daughter some tall tales about the good old days.

-The "Final Duel": By comparison to the duel on Mustafar, the Death Star duel between Vader and Kenobi looks like a sparring session at padawan day camp -- really weak.

-Chewy: Maybe he never met Kenobi face to face before ANH, but having served w/ Yoda, he must've known him by reputation.

-Han: On the Falcon, when he says "I've seen alotta things, but an all-consuming Force...puh-lease..." But the 1000 year-old Jedi Council was in existence when Han was a small child. Jedi powers were an established fact throughout the galaxy. But Han wasn't aware of that? And where's Chewy saying "ya know something Han, I've actually seen it. There was this little green dude I once worked with..." or something.

-The Death Star: A huge project to be sure, but in ANH it's just been completed and it's making its first test run. In RotS its construction looks to be about 40% complete.  The beginning of it's construction occurred some time between Ep. II and Ep. III. Ergo, unless there was a major labor strike in between, that sucker should've been completed a long time before ANH.



1. Obi-Wan not remembering: Ever think that his memories might have led to some sad news to Luke about Darth Dad?

2. Lar's memory loss: 3PO was NOT built at the homestead, he was built in Ani's home in Mos Espa. Besides, I think that it would be a bit of a stretch for him to remember rusty old 3PO when he's now in gold plating on a sandcrawler. And he only saw R2 once.

3. Obi and Bail: As far as that goes, Obi served the Senate, of which Bail was a part of, so in a way that's true.

4. Obi-Wan Fogie vs. Anakin Skycrispy: How young and healthy were Ani and Obi in ROTS? In ANH, Vader's bin locked in a heavy metal box and Obi's bin hiding out in a hut in the desert for god knows how long. I'd think that they'd both be a little rusty.


5. Chew-man and Obi: Chewy heard about alot of Jedi from Yoda, but I think that names would be a little tough for a guy who, if u read his backstory, helped a green midget escape a world populated by carpets, got taken by Stormies as a slave, and got freed years later by a smuggler. Names and stories tend to get driven out of your head.

6. Han's lack of faith: Considering Jedi were called traitors and villains, among other things, by the Galaxy's government, would it be unreasonable for the common people to be told that Jedi powers were tricks and treachery?

7. Death Star, take 2: Half the Death Star in ROTJ was much, much bigger and stronger than the one in ANH. Besides, considering that before ANH it was just a picture, do u not think that maybe they f*cked up a cupple times? I mean, we're talkin Stormies here, I'd feel safer if I had drunk monkeys on my side.

slang term dictionary
Darth Dad- Vader
Obi- Obi-wan Kenobi
Ani- Anakin Skywalker
Obi-Wan Fogie- Obi in ANH
Anakin Skycrispy- Post arse kicking Ani
Chew-man- Chewbacca
Stormies- Stormtroopers(Also known as morons with bad aim and overly gratifying codplates)

Dictionary is for whoever doesn't speak Kal, so most of you. No offense, but my mind works differently than most others.


I answered all those questions 5 months ago. Now we're just dragging up old threads. --KM
http://www.darkjedibrotherhood.com/forum/i...indpost&p=99823

Scyrone

06-07-2006 15:39:07

my mind works differently than most others.

Actually alot of the sland you mentioned is used alot in alot of forums, lol.

Kal

06-07-2006 21:45:53

Even so, my mind works weird, therefore I put in the dictionary. You know, just in case.