Dark Council Amalgamation Part II

Have at it. Please be patient as we have lots to reply to.

Jac

sounds a bit like micro-management, but if the current system is broken, and there is enough free space for leaders on the clan levels to do their jobs without waiting on the ok from an already overburdoned DCer, then it all sounds good. I have learned from personal experience with a few past leaders that micromanagement will stagnate a clan faster than doing nothing at all, which in some cases is what the end result was. As long as there is a balance built it, then I am all for it.

I've read both parts and I personally think it's all a great idea

/me stamps the generally unneeded and disregarded Scorpius Stamp of Approval on the documents and changes.

I talked with Vith about this on IRC already, but I wanted to address it here too.

When the document says that we're encouraging more Dark Council interaction with the Clans, we do not mean that we want Councilors to start interfering with the House and Clan leaders actual job - leading. The document is saying that Councilors should put more efforts forth to get to know the Clans and all their members, its really about builing better relationships.

Hope that helps clear some things up.

wow. how long did this take to write? I was just wondering if this is going to be a permanent link on darkjedibrotherhood.com or if this is going to be thrown inside the codex or compendium because I'm going to have to read this a few times for things to sink in.

wow. how long did this take to write? I was just wondering if this is going to be a permanent link on darkjedibrotherhood.com or if this is going to be thrown inside the codex or compendium because I'm going to have to read this a few times for things to sink in.




Well, We're been working on it since before New Years. I've documented the different steps on Mr. Calendar (http://www.darkjedibrotherhood.com/calendar/calendar.php?mode=cat&cat_id=5). As for hours? No clue....many many hours. It took quite a long time to develop that duty list.

The proposals as they are will be linked to the Proposals section of the main page, and the Position Duties will be added to a new system called the "Decrees". Those will be available from the main site as well.

For now though, We'll leave it linked at the top of the page.

One thing I'm just unsure of... now that we've abolished the Order Leader positions... how's this going to affect the Orders themselves?

Since everything is Multi-order anyway, does it really warrant having Orders even just for the RP value? I'm asking this because I don't think I've seen many fictions/poems/run-ons where a distinction between the Orders is made. The only possible exception, and this is a minor one, is Krath. Krath have always been less combat-oriented than Obelisk or Sith. Even gaming has become a completely all-Order event.

What's to come concerning that?

One thing I'm just unsure of... now that we've abolished the Order Leader positions... how's this going to affect the Orders themselves?

Since everything is Multi-order anyway, does it really warrant having Orders even just for the RP value? I'm asking this because I don't think I've seen many fictions/poems/run-ons where a distinction between the Orders is made. The only possible exception, and this is a minor one, is Krath. Krath have always been less combat-oriented than Obelisk or Sith. Even gaming has become a completely all-Order event.

What's to come concerning that?



Orders are purely fictional now. We actually made that change almost two years ago, but the Order Leaders kept a bit of the old system around. Despite only the RP effect, we won't be doing away with any orders. They are good parts of our tradition, even though they don't serve a practical purpose.

That, and Trev would kill me if I killed off the Triumverate story from our history.

Jac

Bah silly Trev

I don't even think we need Orders at all anymore. It just adds another unnecessary level of complexity to a club that's already far more complicated than it needs to be. I would rather that we just did away with Orders entirely...

From a fictional/roleplaying standpoint I think having Orders without Order Leaders is an extremely dull concept. Without Order Leaders there is absolutely no reason why a Krath/Obelisk/Sith from one clan would ever associate with a Krath/Obelisk/Sith from another clan. Order Leaders gave each Order a higher purpose which unified members of that Order towards some climatic, ultimate end.

I don't even think we need Orders at all anymore. It just adds another unnecessary level of complexity to a club that's already far more complicated than it needs to be. I would rather that we just did away with Orders entirely...

From a fictional/roleplaying standpoint I think having Orders without Order Leaders is an extremely dull concept. Without Order Leaders there is absolutely no reason why a Krath/Obelisk/Sith from one clan would ever associate with a Krath/Obelisk/Sith from another clan. Order Leaders gave each  Order a higher purpose which unified members of that Order towards some climatic, ultimate end.



Fictionally, Order Leaders still exist. Anyone can write about an Order leader drawing a group of the order members together. However, no real member will hold that position.

Jac

Fictionally, Order Leaders still exist. Anyone can write about an Order leader drawing a group of the order members together. However, no real member will hold that position.

Jac



In that case, we should probably have a competition to determine just who they are - best submission gets to name and characterize the virtual OL. Just so that everyone uses the same Order Leader...

Tarax4OHC!

Thats actually not a bad idea, and something that did spring to mind actually when I first thought about Order Leaders in a post-Order Leaders world. Rather than a position that has administrative work on the Dark Council we could just make them the war leaders or champions of each order or something... a title a person earned through a GJW or RoS or something like that.

Alternatively, as an approach to keeping Order Leaders even fictionally, we could just do away with them even on a fictional level and just say each Order is ruled by a Council of its own Elders who have achieved Mastery of the Order (i.e. Order Power Masters) or something. That saves needing to worry who the Order Leader is, as there wouldn't be one, there would just be a Council of Elders.

No doubt there are quite a few other ways we could go as well, there certainly seems to be potential though in answering the question of "who runs the Orders?" with some kind of award based scheme rather than an appointed Dark Council member. We could also just make them fictional characters who don't exist... but that just seems lame.

Ironically, Jac had mentioned that same idea to me, Goat (about having the OL titles won in GJWs, or some such). I do like the idea of a "council of Elders" better, though, in a way. And not so much like, a ruling body for each Order, so much as just an unofficial advisory voice. The Grand Master is the one that I see as ruling "directly" over the Orders now, and I can see him taking the time to meet with certain individuals and discussing Order-related issues.

I don't think it'd just be Elders, nor do I think it'd just be positioned members of the Order. I can see Jac speaking with anyone DJK+, who has built a reputation, who has proven themselves to be a good leader, or who just cuts out the bull[Expletive Deleted] and gives it to him straight. It's an idea that could be developed.

The Grand Master is the one that I see as ruling "directly" over the Orders now, and I can see him taking the time to meet with certain individuals and discussing Order-related issues.


Allow me a newb question and ask what the "Order-related issues" are now that orders are pretty much fiction-only now? Are these issues just the fictional development ones that we constantly see come and go, or are there any practical issues that you guys see coming up related to the Orders?

I've only just heard about all this change and the disbanding of the OLs etc. Probably unsurprisingly, I'm quite upset that the position of KHP has been closed down.

I appreciate that having a 'Krath leader' per se is a bit redundant now that orders have been watered down so much, but the DB does still need a lead on fictional activities. The duties of the three OLs haven't just disappeared - and I notice that we now have gaming tribunes which sound suspiciously like the old OHC/SHW job descriptions... but for some reason there's no fiction tribune. Instead, the fictional organisation of the DB has been spread between 2-3 different DC offices.

I'll be interested to see how many months the MTs continue for. They certainly won't be (or shouldn't be) a priority for a DGM, and they do take a surprising amount of time each month. Without someone specifically working to keep them going, taking time to promote them etc, they'll soon slide into obscurity. And, to be honest, with Rebirth still dragging on, I'd far rather the DGM and his staff were working on that than on a couple of fiction topics each month.

Will there be another MML or regular DB-wide fiction competitions? If so, will they be ad hoc and run by whichever DC member feels like it at the time? Again, an MML takes a lot of organising. A CON can't run it because by definition it pits clans against each other, so one of the other DC members will have to... if they just happen to have an interest in fictional events. Will any DC member have sufficient interest and time to run and grade an epic comp (with 50+ page submissions)?

Perhaps I'm being too cynical, but I'm afraid the new organisation of the DB seems, once again, to be oriented around its gaming aspects. The fictional aspects of the DB appear to have been palmed off on 2-3 different DC members, each of whom already has their own DC duties. But then, the writers of this club have always been something of an afterthought - it was only through the KHP's strong leadership in the past that fiction came to be recognised as a main DB activity.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm sure no-one meant to sideline the writers in this reshuffle... but why on earth is there no fiction tribune??

I didn't even think much about that Alanna, but having a fiction tribune isn't that bad of an idea. We do want our top DC members focused on other more pressing business. A fiction tribune would/could require just as much work as other tribunes.

Now that Alanna has brought it up, I have to say that she brings forth an excellent point. I was actually thinking about it just last night wondering who is going to run the various competitions the KHP constantly puts forth for those of us who don't play many of the games (me, for example, who only gets his lazy buttox onto SWG a few times a month and spends most of his time writing).

I think a fiction tribune would be an excellent addition to help fill the void left by the disbanding of the KHP.

1) As far as "Order-related issues," I was speaking about both fictional, and non-fictional issues. Fictionally, Jac says there's still "Order Leaders," but I can see this getting swept under the rug. I think it'd be too confusing, and unnecessary, really. And as far as realistically, if there's a need for an Order-specific competition, or just about anything for one, or all of the Orders, Jac (and Kir) should be on top of that, and at least coordinate and delegate it effectively, if not run it themselves.

2) I'll admit that I was a bit surprised that there was just a gaming Tribune, and not a fiction counterpart, as well. At one point, I remember discussing that idea with Jac. At this point, I can't see Kir just "forgetting about" the Monthly Topics, or just letting it fall off into obscurity. Kir just isn't that type of guy. I also don't see it as a side-lining of the writers in the DB. Why? Well, for one thing, there's always going to be the ACC. If nothing else, that will be a valid outlet for fiction writing. Second, there's the Writer's Corner, which Kaiann is said to be extremely enthusiastic about running. Third, there's too many of us who write to let fiction get side-lined.

I mean, honestly, if any of us who care about writing notices a decline in writing competitions, or anything like that, Jac and Kir will hear about it. They know very well that there is a large portion of the DB that wants to write, and will always want to write. I don't think it will decline, but I also don't think it would be a bad idea to try and push them into a fiction Tribune. Let them have a go at it like this, give it a month or two, see where they go, how they do, and then go from there.

Just to clear some things up about the writing side...

Writers aren't getting sidelined in these changes. BF was exactly right when he said I'm not going to "forget about" the MTs or anything like that. Actually, the entire DC has jumped at the opportunity presented here.

While the MTs will ultimately be the responsibility of the DGM, the DC has volunteered (quite enthusiastically) to have them rotated each month between a different Councilor. That way the topics and views are always changing, and it will keep things fresh.

Kaiann has volunteered to take over the writers corner, and I know he has a lot of energy to put towards that project, and will make sure it continues on very well.

I have brought Dark Sabre into my staff as a Magistrate with the specific job of working with me to ensure writing competitions stay consistant. We will make sure stuff like character development comps, epic competitions, mystery comps, and any other type of writing competition you can think of continues to be planned and run.

In addition (as previously mentioned), the ACC continues to exist and thanks to the tireless work of Dalthid, is flourishing. This will always be a center of fiction competition, and it will only be improving more with time.

One final point - if everyone takes a moment to think about it, I think you'll realize that in the past most of the fictional competitions have not originated from the office of the KHP. Every day a battleteam leader, Aedile, Quaestor, Proconsul, or Consul starts a writing competition in the various Houses of Clans in the Brotherhood. These sub-DC levels of leadership are where the majority of all competitions come from, and will continue to come from.

So between the rotating the leaders of the Houses and Clans, the Dark Council members, Kaiann, Dalthid and the ACC, Dark Sabre, Sarin (my Praetor) and myself, I am certain that fictional activities will not decrease at all in the Brotherhood.

With the additional information you said there Kir, it actually sounds better to me now. Rotating MTs, DS added on there, and the enthusiasm is very encouraging. If things go as that sounds, the writing arena should be well taken care of.

Just to add on to what Kir said, this is what I recently wrote in a reply to Alanna via email. Just thought you all may want to read it:

"When Kir, Pyr and I discussed the whole set of changes, I had actually included a Fiction Tribune in the mix the first time around. After talking it over with Kir, we decided it would be best to start out the way it is now, without the Tribune. Couple reasons The first and foremost is that I think a key part of the whole amalgamation process is to take away the "activity gap" that existed between the clans and the DC. There simply hasn't been room for regular DC competitions because there has always been a lot from the OLs. Lately it's to the point where DC members don't even try because that was the OLs job: activity. In that regard, I wanted to make sure that the DC could get a chance at least in trying their hand at some of those competitions. The Monthly Topics, for example, are going to be distributed monthly to a different DC member. One month I'll run it, the next month Spears will do it. The overall job falls under the DGM because he will coordinate who is doing the MT and make sure it happens (and it will happen). The Writer's corner, as I'm sure you've seen, is going to Kaiann (who has been asking for some day to day responsibilities and is quite exciited about the WC). And things like the Character Development comps and the MMLs are going to be coordinated as well by the DGM office but they will be more DC-wide events. Kir has brought Dark Sabre in to help with that and I'm sure a variety of people will be willing to serve on the DGM staff in that capacity.

It's a good question to ask whether the DC members will have interest to grade things like that -- and I think they will. Gone are the days where I'm going to just let a DC member sit in their proverbial office cave. I think in order for us to be truly successful, the DC needs to reach out more and the OL spots had to go so we could distribute the proverbial wealth.

There's good reasons for having a Gaming Tribune and not a Fiction Tribune. Outside of the obvious ability to spread out Fiction events more easily, the Gaming events come quite often and require a ton of administrative work. Passing around a Monthly topic once a month is easy compared to passing around 10 different tournaments and then scoring and submitting medals and adding points and all of the like. There's just too much administration for a team of people to handle [IE, splitting it amongst the DC when it's easier to do it with just one person]. That, and most of the DC members aren't gamers, when all of us are fiction writers. And as for the separation between ICTE and Gaming Tribunes -- the ICTE is a complete bitch to score because none of it is automated. When it becomes so, we will re-evaluate the need for the position.

And that brings up a good point. Some of these changes have never been tried. But we can't know whether they work or not until we do. If they turn out to suck ass, I'm not one to shy away from claiming a mistake. We can always adapt.

I hope this answers your concerns....let me know if there's anything else I can do for ya.
Jac"

Hmm... I'm still very unhappy with the lack of a focal point for fiction activities, but it sounds as if this has already been discussed and decided, so tell me if I'm rehashing old arguments.

Unfortunately, despite your best efforts, it does still sound as if fiction is going to be a bit of an afterthought: "This DC member does x, y and z... oh, and some fiction. This other DC member does x, y and z... oh, and a bit of fiction too." Maybe there won't be a drop in fictional activities (we'll have to wait and see), but isn't it saying something about the priorities of this club that there are people dedicated to the ICTEs etc, but not to fiction?

"I have brought Dark Sabre into my staff as a Magistrate with the specific job of working with me to ensure writing competitions stay consistant." So why not give him the same status as the other Tribunes?

What you say about the lack of admin required for MTs may be true, but I'll bet grading a popular fiction comp takes more time than scoring the ICTEs. Certainly during past GJWs, it's been the fictional scores that have been waited on (and the ACC scoring).

I'm glad so many DC members are keen to run MTs, and passing them around will certainly keep things fresh, but I'm not sure I agree that anyone can run a fiction competition, and I certainly wouldn't agree that all of the DC are writers. They might all write occassionally, but surely these competitions would be better judged by someone whose main participation in this club is focussed on writing? This in itself shows a lack of understanding about what goes into running and judging these comps. (Sure, there are plenty of people on the DC who are very capable of running them, but that's hardly the point.)

[Just as an aside: Back when I took over KHP, I tried passing the MTs around to different people to run each month - it was very unpopular, so I stopped it. Unfortunately I think the thread discussing this was on the old MB.]

It seems a little ironic, Jac, to be saying the KHPs in the past have been too active, and that's the main reason you don't want a fiction tribune now

[And Kir - I apologise, I didn't mean to imply that you'd just forget about the MTs. I was annoyed, and phrasd my post badly.]

Fiction is not an afterthought, nor being phased out. It's the responsibility of the LH alone, instead of the responsibility of 8 other DC members.

Rotating the MT's is a great plan. More people should be involved with running the MT's because frankly I never dealt with them and I'm sure many other DCers didn't either.

Hmm... I'm still very unhappy with the lack of a focal point for fiction activities, but it sounds as if this has already been discussed and decided, so tell me if I'm rehashing old arguments.


This is a rehashing, yes, but it's always good to. If you and I aren't on the same page it's pretty much guaranteed that some others aren't as well. I don't mind going over it all again and again.

As for a focal point....The Dark Council needs to be the focal point for DB wide fiction events. The DC as a whole, not just a member of it.

Unfortunately, despite your best efforts, it does still sound as if fiction is going to be a bit of an afterthought: "This DC member does x, y and z... oh, and some fiction. This other DC member does x, y and z... oh, and a bit of fiction too." Maybe there won't be a drop in fictional activities (we'll have to wait and see), but isn't it saying something about the priorities of this club that there are people dedicated to the ICTEs etc, but not to fiction?


The fact that the ICTE is run by people other than the DC members to me is a testament that it isn't as much of a priority to the DC (no offense ICTE boys. We love ya and you're quite important). I know that when I have a project that I want prioritized, I do it personally. Kir wanted to personally oversee the MTs because he felt that the MTs deserved his attention. Besides, I don't think anyone is going to let us forget.

At the worst, the MTs will get the exact same push as they do now: a mention in a report every week or so.

This is something that we'll all just have to wait and see on though -- like I said at the end of my last post, I'm not afraid of change again, but I need to see that we try to get fiction working throughout the DC first. I plan on making it a priority. If it doesn't work, we'll look at the Tribune possibility

"I have brought Dark Sabre into my staff as a Magistrate with the specific job of working with me to ensure writing competitions stay consistant." So why not give him the same status as the other Tribunes?


He's not going to be doing all of the work -- just working as an assistant in creating and sometimes helping to grade competitions. Can't really say that the DGM can't have staff helping him with this stuff when KHPs always had big staffs. Really, there we plenty of MTs and other comps done through the KHP office that were admin'ed and graded by staff members. That's not something that is new to today.

What you say about the lack of admin required for MTs may be true, but I'll bet grading a popular fiction comp takes more time than scoring the ICTEs. Certainly during past GJWs, it's been the fictional scores that  have been waited on (and the ACC scoring).


This is true, but I think in the GJWs this has been primarily because we've had the same 2-3 people judging a ton of fiction competitions....that, and GJW events gets many times the number of submissions as a MT. Each month there will be a refreshed set of people ready to grade the MTs -- I don't think that will pose a problem.

I'm glad so many DC members are keen to run MTs, and passing them around will certainly keep things fresh, but I'm not sure I agree that anyone can run a fiction competition, and I certainly wouldn't agree that all of the DC are writers. They might all write occassionally, but surely these competitions would be better judged by someone whose main participation in this club is focussed on writing?  This in itself shows a lack of understanding about what goes into running and judging these comps. (Sure, there are plenty of people on the DC who are very capable of running them, but that's hardly the point.)

[Just as an aside: Back when I took over KHP, I tried passing the MTs around to different people to run each month - it was very unpopular, so I stopped it. Unfortunately I think the thread discussing this was on the old MB.]


I don't know if I could disagree more that anyone on the DC isn't qualified to grade fiction. At the very least, anyone who can fully read a set of stories is qualified to judge the stories on the basics of plot, character, overall cohesiveness, etc. Mechanics is something entirely different, but someone like me who is bad at grading mechanics can easily get help. I've always favored more than one person grading fiction entries anyway.

One advantage that we fail to point out as well is that this brings about a group of people's likes and dislikes. When you have one KHP grading the entries over and over again, you have the same KHP's preferences dominating the grading. When Telona thinks is a great story might only be #2 in my eyes and vise versa. I may have a particular like or dislike of someone's writing style -- but with new set up that person can get a different judge next month who may love it.

I do recall the passing around of the MTs before, but it wasn't on the DC member-scale. I went through and re-read all of the KHP reports before this all went down (yes, I went through well over 100 of them) and I recall many times when Aragorn or DS were running the MTs. But again, if people don't like it after we've tried it for a while, then we go back tot he drawing board.

It seems a little ironic, Jac, to be saying the KHPs in the past have been too active, and that's the main reason you don't want a fiction tribune now


eh -- careful. I never said that the OLs were too active. I said they had a job of activity, meaning that their main job was to provide the members with avenues for activity. Next to the remaining DC members after Amalgamation, the OL jobs just don't stack up as DC-worthy. I consider a DC job something that requires 2-3 hours a day on average. During an RoS, maybe the OLs get there, but on a day-in day-out basis they don't. That's one of the reason why OLs since the beginning of time have always re-written the Order histories and locations and powers and everything and come up with different projects that never were completely pulled-through: running one regular competition a month, doing the WC and maybe some other comps is not going to take up all the time a person of DC-caliber is willing to give. Hence the random projects that are made to have something to do.

Just as an example to that, when we re-did the Praetors some months ago, Telona and I had a talk about whether she should have one. We basically decided that if she did all of the work for the KHP, there's nothing left over for a Praetor -- vise versa, if she delegated say, the WC, she'd have little left to do.

The lack of spread of "activity responsibilities" is a main reason, yes, that I don't want a Tribune. I think that's the most important change of this whole thing. We are taking roles that require interaction with the members and clans and making the DC members do it, instead of relegating it to just one spot. I don't see how that could ever be a bad thing, provided it gets done. And that's the key, isn't it? You're concern is that fiction won't have a focus and that it will fall to the wayside. I'm taking the optimistic view that we will have fiction at the forefront of our thoughts. I think if you take away that issue, everything else is just jibberjabber.

The issue is, will fiction still be a priority in the brotherhood, and will the jobs get done. I say whole-heartedly: yes they will.

Thanks, Lannie!

Jac

Fiction is not an afterthought, nor being phased out. It's the responsibility of the LH alone, instead of the responsibility of 8 other DC members.


The Writer's Corner is the responsibility of the LH. Everything else is falling under DGM to assure it is done by the larger DC.

Jac

Also just to clear something up because I keep hearing it come up...

Just because I prefer playing JO doesn't mean I'm "not a writer". I have been Krath before in the past, and have won major fiction and poetry competitions in the DB as well. In addition I did a ton of writing in Taldryan setting up clan institutions, and I've done a lot of ACC battles (check 'em out if you don't believe me).

I think people automatically think of me as a gamer and forget that I write as well, and I do actually know what I'm doing

Lies! Kir knows nothing, but how to play JO CTF! Speaking of which, come play with us some time. We miss you

Jac/Kir: Thanks for responding to all my concerns/comments. It's a testament to the DB's leadership that you're so accessible during a change like this.

I may not agree with everything you're saying, but I'm happy to wait and see how things play out

Hmm... thats proved my assumptions wrong then, I assumed a Fiction Tribune or something was forthcoming

Having it split between DC members doesn't seem like a bad idea though. It keeps them on their toes and makes sure they can't just sit there doing "secret projects" that nobody sees but actually have some form of more direction interaction with regular members. Personally, as far as the actual MTs themselves go, having different people run them may offer a bit more diversity too, but we'll have to wait and see exactly how that pads out I guess.

If it does prove a flop though... we can always appoint a Fiction Tribune later. Thats the real nice thing about Tribunes, we can make them up as we need them. Plus we've still got the Dark Voice which a lot of people like to submit to. I'm sure if push came to shove the Dark Voice Tribune could find more ways to open the DV up to more freeform submissions for bi-monthly competitions or something of that nature.

This is probably late, but I think we should take back the Lord Hedgemom position, but like a Tribune: Role Playing. Just an idea

ah, no not late, only with a year...