Light or Dark?


21-06-2005 18:41:14

With the Tests of Wisdom and character histories, I see a lot of similar ideas- fallen Jedi, giving into anger and killing someone; basically, things you'd expect for traditional Dark Jedi. We see it in the movies, and in the newer video games where you can actually choose the alingment of your character (JA, KOTOR I,II, etc.).

One thing that has recently seemed to become a trend is the presenting of Light Jedi as cold hearted murders, slavers, and other such things that considered "dark" or bad and evil.

I'm just wondering why this is occuring more and more, and where did these ideas come from? I'm not saying every Jedi is perfect, but to say that a Light Jedi, who has devoted his life to the Light Side, would indulge in such things, is, well, for lack of a better word, wrong.

Your thoughts?


21-06-2005 19:17:08

Star Wars is based off of fallen Jedi. Look at Anakin. He is the biggest example for this case. As for the character bios and what not, I'm not really sure. You're either trained to become a Sith, or you have prior Jedi training.


21-06-2005 20:16:48

Yeah, I know the story is based around the fallen concept. That's not quite what I'm asking about.

Allow me to clarify: in these stories that I read, there is the portrayal of full fledged, Light Side Jedi as the aforementioned murders, slavers, etc. That's what I'm wondering about- why this has suddenly become a trend.

Kaine Mandaala

21-06-2005 21:26:10

People need a scapegoat but don't know enough about the subject on which they are writing. In other words - lack of originality and unfamiliarity with the true nature of the Jedi.

If you look at my history and character history timeline on the HRLD site you'll see that [the character of Kaine Mandaala] hates the Jedi for keeping the truth about his past from him, even though - in reality - they didn't know the truth. The inspiration comes from the notion that Luke could have really been angry at Obi-Wan and Yoda for not telling him that Darth Vader was his father. This anger could have, theoretically, led him down the path to the Dark Side. Granted, old Ben and Yoda knew damned well what happened to Luke's father...

My character, who was once a skilled and compassionate Jedi Knight, fell to the Dark Side after learning that the pre-Jedi Academy life he remembered was all a fabrication. He felt used by the Jedi, and betrayed by his former master - who, as I've said, had no idea of Kaine's true history.

Kohn Fang

21-06-2005 21:52:34

Well along with wat started this, if one lives the jedi way, it is suppressing many emotions, love, anger, hate, etc. some people who are weak might not be able to live holding these inside, personally anakin (in my opinion) was a great lightsaber dualer, yet a horribly pathetic jedi, he could not keep his emotions in check, and when he appeared to be keeping them in check, they were just building up on the inside.


21-06-2005 21:54:41

Isnt that called biting the tongue? But then its bitten so hard it begins to bleed.....meh, you get the picture.

Shinichi Endymiron K

21-06-2005 23:45:49

I became dark due to years of war and imprisonment which galvanized my loyalty to the empire and drove my hatred of the rebellion and those associated with it (Jedi).


22-06-2005 05:54:02

This is why I dislike the term Dark Jedi Brotherhood and really don't know where it originally came from. For years we were the Dark Brotherhood, no Jedi in there, but then people starting putting the world Jedi in for some reason which isn't exactly true. The term Brotherhood of Dark Jedi had been more widely used in the past so I suppose it arose as an abbreviated form and alternative to just Dark Brotherhood. Either way its a relatively more recent name compared to the others.

Theres a difference between a Darksider and a Dark Jedi. A Darksider is someone who was trained in the dark side from the start or just a generic evil person who may have started off as a Force Sensitive from some other culture, Baran Do Sages, Matukai, Zeison Sha, Nightsisters, Sorcerers of Tsund, or whatever else. However the term Dark Jedi is stricly reserved for fallen Jedi- to be a Dark Jedi you have to have been a Jedi first. The term darksider covers a wider range of people.

This is why the term Dark Jedi Brotherhood isn't really appropriate. Due to our place in time very few of us were ever once Jedi Knights. We're thirty years after the rise of the Empire meaning not many of our characters are old enough to have been Jedi Knights in the Old Republic and the new Jedi Academy under Luke Skywalker is far too new for any of us to have turned from it yet (timeline wise it has been around for about two years). The number of us who are therefore Dark Jedi is very small.

This is also why there is a very distinct difference between Dark Jedi and Sith. To call a Sith a Dark Jedi would pretty much be an insult. If you had called Darth Sidious a Dark Jedi he would probably have had your head for it. He was not a Dark Jedi. He was a Sith, which conversely also means he was a darksider. To call him a Dark Jedi would imply he was originally a Jedi Knight which Palpatine would have considered insulting. There is no quicker way to piss a pure Sith off than to ignorantly call them a Jedi. Darth Maul showed this a number of times when people called him a Dark Jedi- it infuriated him because he despised Jedi, calling him one was calling him the thing he hated most in the universe.

So as far as the Sith Order goes it would actually take offence at the term Dark Jedi Brotherhood. The Grand Master, being the Dark Lord of the Sith, would also take offence from it. The Dark Lord more than anyone else would not want to be associated with something as inferior as the Jedi Order.

The only real way to try and blag why we would be Dark Jedi and not ordinary darksiders is because we train to use a lightsaber. Lightsaber combat is also known as the Jedi Arts. To wield a lightsaber was something the Jedi did- it wasn't something every Force Sensitive did. The Matukai and Zeison Sha adepts had their own weapons that built on their Force potential, but they didn't use lightsabers. The Nightsisters didn't use lightsabers either. Even the original Sith didn't use lightsabers- they used Sith Swords.

The lightsaber was always the symbol of the Jedi- fallen and Dark Jedi just happen to still use one.

Thats why Darth Sidious was able to defeat the Jedi. He didn't just train in Sith teachings- blasting people with lightning etc- he trained in the Jedi Arts in order to use their own weapons against them. The Sith evolved and adapted, they assimilated the teachings of other factions and turned their weapons against them in order to win. Its what made the Jedi Order powerless when the Sith returned because they hadn't bothered to change their ways and were stuck in the past fighting the same way they had thousands of years ago. They may have beat the Sith that way during the last war but the Sith had learned from their mistakes. The Jedi had been too arrogant to think they needed to.

Using this argument it may be possible to argue that we're Dark Jedi because we're trained to be Jedi. We are all trained in the Jedi Arts, lightsaber combat, and so qualify as Dark Jedi. Its not entirely true though as you only have to think about Darth Maul or Darth Sidious. We are Dark Force Sensitives, otherwise called darksiders, but Force Sensitives do not have to be Jedi. Likewise Dark Force Sensitives don't have to be Dark Jedi either.

To go back to your question... the tragic fall from good to evil is the centrral concept of Star Wars as symbolised in the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, otherwise known as the Star Wars Saga. The films when viewed as a sexology are meant to be about the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, everything else that happens is just fluff to bulk out the story. The heart of it is about Anakin. Thats why so many other stories in Star Wars try to mimic that of the films. Star Wars is ultimately about tragic loss. Darth Vader wasn't evil, he was tragic, thats why he could be redeemed and why there "was still good in him". Darth Sidious was the Devil and was symbolic of pure evil. You'll notice characters like Darth Sidious are rare though, most bad guys in Star Wars follow the Anakin Skywalker model more than they do the Palpatine model.

I put it down to a lack of creativity personally. People can't be bothered to try something new so just stick to the tried and tested method of the tragic hero. It works, it sells, so they use it. Look at the KOTOR series- thats an almost perfect emulation of the Anakin Skywalker tragedy- and people loved it. The tragic fall of Darth Revan to the dark side in order to save the Republic from the Mandalorian invaders... you can't get better than that. It was Palpatine renamed to the Mandalorians.

In the Dark Brotherhood itself, well, people join to roleplay their favourite characters, no? If people join the club its most likely because they want to be Anakin Skywalker or somebody else so their character ends up modelled closely on the film heros. If we didn't have the ban on people using official character's names we'd have a lot of people calling themselves Joe Skywalker etc which shows who people want to be.

I agree though that most people don't think about their histories much when they write them and fail to remember that whats most important about a tragedy is not how but why. The reason everyone was so desperate for Episode III was always because people wanted to know why Anakin turned to the dark side. We already pretty much knew how he did it- we wanted to know why. It was the most important question in understanding why he turned into Darth Vader and screwed the galaxy. How something happens is just the outer coating, what makes or breaks a story is if we can agree with the why. Thats why all these people claiming their Jedi characters are turning to the dark side doesn't really work. There needs to be a reason why they did it. People, trained Jedi Knights especially, don't just "turn to the dark side" because they feel like it... they have to have a reason. Its why too many of us are wrong to style ourselves as Dark Jedi, too few of us have a reason to say we've fallen from the light to the dark, we'd be much better off remembering we're not Dark Jedi we're darksiders, because most member's characters in the Dark Brotherhood don't have enough substance- they're just pure evil. More people here roleplay the Darth Sidious model of evil down to the bone than the Darth Vader model of the tragic hero. My character is a mix personaly but thats rooted in a rejection by the Jedi at an early age for much the same reasons why Mace wanted to turn away Anakin in Episode I and a number of experiences with places such as Korriban that act as a catalyst for corruption.

To quote Darth Traya "there are dark places in the galaxy". In places where the dark side is strong, I suppose it could be argued the Shadow Academy and Antei is one of these, the ordinary rules of a reason for turning can be somewhat ignored, as people can just be directly corrupted with the dark side.

To finish my rant on Dark Jedi v. Darksiders I'll just mention something else: Light Jedi v. Jedi. The term Light Jedi is equally wrong... Light Jedi don't exist. It's like saying Dark Dark Jedi. A Jedi Knight is a follower of the light side, to use the term Light Jedi is unnecessary. Its essentially saying Light Light Jedi. You cannot be a Jedi and not be part of the light side. I never understand where this term of Light Jedi was originally coined as I've only ever seen it used by members of the Dark Brotherhood. Its not a term that has any factual backing. There are Jedi and Dark Jedi. There aren't Light Jedi and Dark Jedi. Mace Windu was a Jedi Master, he wasn't a Light Jedi Master. If anything the Jedi Knights live in harmony and balance with the Force- that means they're neutral more than anything. To stamp them with a label as being Light isn't really correct. Especially in our setting. In the Old Republic it might be possible to get away with labelling the Jedi Order as the Light Side. The whole point of Luke Skywalker though is to show the Jedi realised their mistakes and realised that you can't just label everything light and dark. Luke, and subsequently all Jedi Knights of our timeline trained by him, was far more the universal Jedi Knight who understood the Force wasn't as simple as just light and dark. You might be able to use the Force for good and evil purposes, but the Force itself is ultimately neutral. More reason why Jedi Knights of our era wouldn't be "Light Jedi". More than one of the Solo children have used lightning, even Luke uses a variant stunning form of lightning, without becoming labelled as Dark Jedi. The Force in our era is a much more philosophical understanding than the ancient Republic method- I call it ancient because don't forget the Jedi lost because they were stuck in the past. The Sith had evolved. Mace Windu was using an understanding of the Force as ancient as Yoda.

Anyway, my boredom for this morning is over, I'll end now before I never shut up.


22-06-2005 13:05:13

Xanos are you or have you ever been a psychiatrist << Spelled it right on my first try. My idea on the Dark or Light....everything Xanos said I completely argree with every word he said and couldn't have put it better.


22-06-2005 18:12:00

Nope, never been a psychiatrist. I'm only nineteen. I mostly studied the sciences at school and am currently working towards my Batchelors in Law at University.


22-06-2005 18:26:01

the jedi are fools and must be purged, anybody want to join a group called the jedi hater society? j/k but that would be cool

Macron Sadow

22-06-2005 21:14:05

Nice one, Xanos. You are only 19? Whoa. I would never ever have guessed. You write elegantly.
Law... that explains it. heh heh.

Anyhow.... the Sith truly did fight with alchemical swords at first. Later, the appropriated the Jedi lightsaber technology. The True Sith were masters of absorbing whatever they encountered and then turning it to their own dark will. Exar Kun was a great example of this.
Even though he was a fallen Jedi, he became a Sith and amalgamated his knowledge of the two lores. He even mastered Naga Sadow's Masassi servants and then furthered Sadow's works.

Also, this. The "Prophecy" mentioned the Chosen as restoring the balance. The Jedi at the time were superior in numbers, and considered their way the only one. Their blindness to the duality of the Force led them to think the Chosen would destroy the Sith, but in reality they were the ones out of balance with the nature of the Force. Without light, there is no Darkness. Without Darkness, there is no light.


24-06-2005 13:47:25

macron, thats exactly what i said, for there to be balance there has to be light and dark or it is not truly balanced, think of a light side world that had no evil, populatioons would soar due to no death, by the way i looked it up and when someone dies, the dark side flourishes in that persons absence of the force. ;)


24-06-2005 14:08:38

Hence the reason the Jedi Council got their undies in a bunch when Revan and Malik went off to war.


24-06-2005 19:53:20

they were right to go, i would, the madalorians would have destroyed everything, the power hungry the way since revan was mentioned, hes my favorite sith. :)


26-06-2005 08:20:13

Lol Jaymz, he just has the time to post up something like that.


26-06-2005 08:37:51

Xan, you're 19? You're a freak! :P

- man, writing like you do, in a case situation you'd have all ends covered. When you graduate give me your number so I can call you if I get into any trouble with the law ;)


Anshar ~

I agree with Kaine in response to your query on the new un-Jedi like trends developing within the Jedi. People I guess are loosing their touch when it comes to writing in accurate Star Wars terms.


27-06-2005 23:26:43

well the main reason any light jedi turns to the dark side is because of power he wants moor power and will goto any level to get it like anikan he wanted to save padamay so he turned to the darkside if your selfish and greedy you will turn to the dark side

p.s. Xanos rites so much


28-06-2005 12:37:43

Wow. What a lack of grammar.

What you said is true Xan. I'm almost 17 and I love law as well (I do well in it, but as to trials, my utter lack of charisma usually takes hold).

But if you really look at it, what makes the Dark Side evil? The Force itself is a natural force, therefore it is neutral. It's the uses and applications making up its history that make people see it as evil. What about guys like Plagus? He could keep people from dying! True, if NOBODY died, problems would occur with population (or would they? there are alot of planets out there...), but what if it were done to people who's talent was too good to waste? What if we could have preserved Einstein, or Steven Hawking, or Arristotal. The list goes on! Imagine us, living 'till Judgement Day!

Anyway, that's just my spin on it. People don't call lightning evil, but it destroys. It's the person that's evil, not the Dark Side.


29-06-2005 02:02:51

you mock my grammer i make up for it in my fighting ability in any starwars game ie. swg or jedi academy il mess u up nagrO

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