Light Side Order Ranks

Hey Guys,

So if you are apart of the beta for the new site or you read Raken's announcement about it, then you may also know that in the new system the Light Side orders are going to have their own ranks. Thought I would open the floor to discussion, then Im gonna go research canon ranks.

This sounds like a good idea. I also was thinking that we should have it as in-line with the canon as possible, so researching the ranks is a good idea.

As discussed and, largely, agreed upon by the original Summit + GM/DGM. It was an interesting discussion but was not implementable at the time.

JOURNEYMEN
Initiate (INI)
Apprentice (APP)
Acolyte (ACO)
Protector (PRT)
Guardian (GRD)
Padawan (PDW)
Jedi Knight (JK)

GUARDIAN ORDER
EQ 1: Guardian Defender (GDE)
EQ 2: Guardian Warden (GWA) / Guardian Duelist
EQ 3: Guardian Peacekeeper (GPK)
EQ 4: Guardian Guardian Exemplar (GE)


SENTINEL ORDER
EQ 1: Sentinel Scout (SSC)
EQ 2: Sentinel Ranger (SRA)
EQ 3: Sentinel Shadow (SSH)
EQ 4: Sentinel Watchman (SWM)

CONSULAR ORDER
EQ 1: Consular Savant (CSV)
EQ 2: Consular Seer (CSE)
EQ 3: Consular Chronicler (CCN)

EQ 4: Consular Sage (CSG)

ELDERS
Jedi Adept (JAD)
Jedi Master (JM)
Jedi Oracle (JOR)

I assume Guardian 4 is not suppose to be Guardian Guardian Exemplar

Also, while its nice to see that there has been some discussion about this before; its also good to get the house involved. I remember what it was like when the old Order Leader made the ranks without input, and the constant back and forth changes that were made (especially for the Sith even past Exodus) because the membership wasn't involved.

That in mind, I personally do have some issues with the ranks list.

Padawan- frankly, if I was a new member I wouldnt want to be known as a Padawan after some 4-6 months already spent in the DB. Its very much a term used for those new to the order and if you remember the movies, Obi-wan only called Anakin it to put them in his place. Compare that with the fact that in comparison the Dark Jedi have Jedi Hunter as their last title before knighthood, and the fact every other SW club out there has Padawan as their very lowest rank - I honestly dont believe it would be well received. I do believe we need the rank though as it is canon, but since it is the first title a Jedi receives after initiate and when they are picked up by a Master it makes sense to me to place it instead of Acolyte (a few dark and cult like word). Then for Journeyman 6 it could be Disciple instead.

Guardian Exemplar- Two issues with this, the name itself is horrid in my opinion. I can understand though that if you wanted to connect it to the Obelisk order it makes sense given the desire for perfection. But the Guardian order is not known for this desire. Remember they are Jedi, they dont have the same type of cravings for power - which this is a form of. Furthermore, you have used the canon titles for the highest of each order (Sage and Watcher). In canon, the Guardian highest title in canon was Warrior Master. I do believe we should stick as close to this as possible for canon reasons, and the fact you have used canon to sort out the other order ranks.



Personally, I do like what was sorted out for Consulars. When I was researching last night I saw many similar ranks for them so Im glad to see that has been sorted out so well.

Sentinels, I dont like the Ranger title myself for a Jedi but the rest are okay and I could live with Ranger. Other may not though.

Elder ranks, no issues. I like each of them.

I think that for the Elders, Oracle and Master should be switched but that's just me.

hmmm, I curious what you say that Callus. Frankly, I assume they put it that way because it lines up with DJM and DP. But besides grand master, the next highest rank was jedi master. But there were also titles like high councillor. Though, we use this title as a fictional title for the QUA already.

We tried to stay away from ranks which exist as positions as much as possible. We liked Oracle because it's similar in nature to Prophet.

This was just a hastily put together (over like 3 weeks) list because Orv seemed to suggest it was possible. Of course IF something like this implementable and on the table it should be discussed and agreed upon by the whole house. I only threw it out there so people have some sort of framework from which to begin.

Ji

Before spending a lot of time on this, let it be clear that (for the new site) it's not required anymore for the Light Side orders to essentially mirror the Dark Side ones. So, if you guys want two (or four) orders, then that's possible. They also fictionally don't need to be the counterparts of the Krath, Sith and Obelisk anymore. If you want them to be, fine, but don't let it limit you

~J

I remember spending hours researching ranks for that list.

There was a lot of discussion with the GM/DGM about this when we put it together that explains some of the rank choices on the list. So let me elaborate.

First I pretty much put those Journymen ranks together, and at the time they were just for show because re-coding the pre-Equite ranks would have been too difficult. I put Padawan in place of jedi hunter because it's the Rank granted to a jedi only after they begin serious training with a master and it's directly before becoming a Knight in Canon. Having ranks inbetween Padawan and Knight would just be strange and confusing to new members in my opinion.

Guardian Exemplar- Two issues with this, the name itself is horrid in my opinion. I can understand though that if you wanted to connect it to the Obelisk order it makes sense given the desire for perfection. But the Guardian order is not known for this desire. Remember they are Jedi, they dont have the same type of cravings for power - which this is a form of. Furthermore, you have used the canon titles for the highest of each order (Sage and Watcher). In canon, the Guardian highest title in canon was Warrior Master. I do believe we should stick as close to this as possible for canon reasons, and the fact you have used canon to sort out the other order ranks.

This Rank was the subject of a lot of disscusion, I too strongly supported Warrior Master or Weaponmaster for EQ4 Guardians but the GM/DGM had problems with having "Master" in any rank other then "Jedi Master". They might have different views now but they were pretty adamant about it at the time.

In regards to the elder ranks the DC wanted Jedi Master to line up with Dark jedi Master.

I'm glad you like the Consular Ranks, I spent a lot of time trying to find Canon ranks that would fit there and those were my favorites.

I put a lof of work into this list back in the day, would be really awesome to see some of it get used.

Yet there is a Sith called battlemaster? Heh, frankly that argument doesn't make sense. If it can't be Warriormaster then surely there is something similar that can be used.

We brought that very point up, Raiju and the response was that, had the current DC been in power back then, Battlemaster would not be a rank.

Since James says we don't need to mirror the other orders we could discuss whether we would like to mirror the DJB or TOR. If we mirrored the DJB it could stay similar to how it is now.

If we mirrored TOR it could be Jedi Sage, Jedi Sentinel, Jedi Guardian, Jedi Shadow or something.

Ji

That is an interesting concept...frankly I'm up for the possibility. Yet, it would have to be within reason. Can't, for example, have a half dozen different orders. But if we followed the advanced classes of TOR it could be very specific for each order and you wouldn't have to worry about defining as a Consular if you were more into medicine or stealth warfare...

I still like Padawan being the equivalent of Jedi Hunter. Padawans aren't tiny bitches and recruits have to go through training before BEING Padawans.

Funny thing is, when I was the Rollmaster I actually named the 'new' master/student program to master/padawan when designing and implementing the program. Although Sith Hunter wouldn't make a lick of sense.

As for the orders, I very much like the idea of mirroring the advanced classes of TOR (Although we have to keep in mind that there are rank restrictions on double-bladed and two single-bladed lightsabers, so I don't see much of a difference between guardians and sentinels until the sentinel reaches a rank where he is granted an addtiional lightsaber, being that the inclusion of an additional lightsaber is the main dividing factor between guardians and sentinels in TOR). Although I do like the idea of having a stealth-based order. Otherwise, I'm also up for using the three existing ones.

Also, for the sentinel order ranks, I think sentinel ranger could be changed to something more fitting. I like the idea of Sentinel Investigator, although i'm sure there are other ranks that could fit here, as well.

Another thing is, with the inclusion of new orders for the light-side, will we be able to come up with our own order powers?

Just an example from Wookiepedia for a possible sentinel order power:

Known for practicing more specialized Force-techniques, a form of Force Immunity was favored amongst those in this class. Crossing Force-based training with increased mental conditioning, this ability allowed them to better withstand outside mental influences, including Force-based attacks.

And regarding the Jedi Guardian ranks...
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_battlemaster
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Blademaster
According to Wookiepedia, the Sith Blademaster is 'on par' with a Jedi Battlemaster.

We had actually written that before TOR, with the KOTOR order specs in mind. Guardians were tough fighters, Consulars were lighter Force users, and Sentinels were somewhere in between, which is where Sentinel Ranger comes from.

I'm not sure about the TOR Idea, frankly it sounds kinda strange.

Personally I support using the Canon Jedi Orders (Guardian/Consular/Sentinel) makes us sound more professional/official and they're something lots of Star Wars fans are familer with.

Having a bit of mirroring with the dark side orders is a good thing I think, keeps things from being too confusing.

Agreed. And as I mentioned in my last post, I don't think there is much of a difference between Guardians and Sentinels in TOR other than the inclusion of an additional lightsaber (Which we can't use until a higher rank, anyways), unless we could say that Guardians play a more defensive role than the Sentinels. Also, i'm up for opening a poll to see which route has more interest, whether it be the way we currently have it (Mirroring the DB) or mirroring the advanced classes of TOR. I'll get one set up when I get back home tonight.

Once we get the ranks decided, we can probably get rolling on deciding order powers and house powers, since I don't think we have any, yet.

Jedi Paladin, instead of the controversial Weaponmaster?

Powers... I had a list of names from years ago, but I seem to remember that we already had our House powers figured out. One of them was some kind of conversion of Darksiders.

I suppose if there's no record, then I don't see any harm in coming up with new ideas

My old random list:
Light Pulse / Blast
Oneness
Wall of Light
Electric Judgement
Ray
Droid Disable
Confusion

I have sat here reading thought everything you guys have talked about.... that being said I have no opion on this becasue I dont that much about the rank system. I know what I like though and I like most of what was come up with. Maybe a few little name changes here and there but I think you all have the right ideas already.

As for mirroring a game like ToR what happens when it isnt a game any more that people know much about? Will it still be relivent to people?

what ever you guys come up with I am sure will be great. I trust all of you to do what is best for the house!

Ok, it's been a while since I've been around so forgive this old man if I state something that has been done or has already been denied or whatever.

After looking over the rank list and the fact that we don't have to adhere to the DB's rank structure, I have a comment or two I'd like to share.

According to the Good Book (the Jedi Path ), there are 4 Jedi Ranks. This is obviously not enough even if we don't stick by the DB's rank ladder. All 4 of these ranks are already in the list so including them is not a problem. We would need to expand on this list.

Since we do not have to copy the DB's list and just adjust it for the Light, I say we throw out all ranks (after initiate and apprentice) that are also in the DB rank system. These are specifically Acolyte, Protector and Guardian. While these ranks sound perfect for the Jedi, they've been associate with the DB for so long we should do something new. We definitely shouldn't use Guardian for the simple fact that it's the name of a sect within the Jedi Order.

Acolyte --> Disciple
Protector --> Defender
Guardian --> Preserver

These are examples if we wanted to use synonyms of the ranks in place. After choosing them, I already don't like them. Haha.

Maybe have Force Warrior. According to wookiepedia, Force Warriors were a sect composed of force users who were practitioners of unarmed combat. They mixed meditation and martial arts techniques. This would be a decent name for a Jedi rank before they are allowed to use a lightsaber.

The funny thing is I keep coming up with ideas and then throwing them out once I put them down on paper. Haha.

Overall, I think we should not adhere to the rank structure set up by the DB. If we can be different we should be different. I'll see if I can come up with actual ranks to add to the discussion based on what I know from the Jedi Path book but a lot of the names within it are on the original rank list. The only thing I'd be suggesting would be a structure.

So I'll go away, do some thinking, and then come back to offer my two-cents.

It's been about 6 months since this topic has been commented on. Was anything finally decided on?

A lot of this was discussed and finalized internally. Ranks are now finalized.