Saber styles and Martial Arts

Taken from IRC discussion, slightly condensed.

Xanos> I've never liked that people magically know two whole martial artforms
Xanos> To me knowing more than one should be special
Xanos> Especially lightsaber.
Xanos> A DJK only just got a lightsaber
Xanos> And masters TWO forms?
Xanos> I'd like an option that says None.
AraniaRoS> and the form of martial artns Arania knows isn't even mentioned anywhere
AraniaRoS> so i had to pick something
Xanos> I'm actually pondering creating a proposed list of Dark Jedi styles.
Xanos> In theory we'd not use any of the Jedi Forms.
Xanos> Vapaad would probably be our DJK form
Xanos> As its the most dark side a Light Jedi wants to venture into
Xanos> Well, Form 7 is Vapaad.
Malik> form 7 is vornskr or however you spell it
`Xanos> Personally I want us to get rid of those "Way of te..."
Xanos> I'd rather named styles be our own creations.
Xanos> Vapaad has a name because its damn special.
Xanos> If we create our own styles giving them names will make them unique.
Xanos> Plus we can't number our own Dark Jedi creations.
Xanos> As they're meant to be numbered in order of creation.
Xanos> And Vapaad was recent.
Xanos> So if we created Form 8 it'd mean it got created in the last 20 years
Xanos> But yeah... if you can get Dalthid to get rid of the Ways that'd be nice
Xanos> I liked the martial arts that Alaric added.
Xanos> I didn't like the Ways though.
AraniaRoS> why dont you post on the ACC board about it?
AraniaRoS> in a .. shortish, concentrated form?
Xanos> I might do jsut that.
Xanos> Though the RC Demo is at 98%
Xanos> So I may disappear for a few... years.


So, because I don't want him to foget ) Any opinions? I basically agree with him.

I AGREE 100%... with a twist, of course...

I don't think every and all style should have a custom name, but possibly derivatives of the same. I know that not everyone here has a "Master" declared - but logically, you learned your sh*t from somewhere. So, for example, if KP Page Meridian was my master, initially, and his form was... i dunno... XYZ... whatever... then mine might be XYZ-A, y'know? A derivative of the original form. That would also show a bit of lineage around here, perhaps even in the families.

As for the "way of the..." yep, that's going... I hate it. And I'm not even asking I'll put them back to "form" whatever and when/if I go with 'custom' sabre styles, they will still need to be tagged (radio button prolly) for writing's sake - comparison... which style does it closest resemble.

That's my four cents...

Yay!

Oh and by the way... we need to change Alaric's names for Lightsaber forms. Just... ew. I never liked those.

(no offense to the former CM of course)

Ya I always felt those were kind of odd... I'm not sure it's from any real SW fiction or anything but I don't see Dark Jedi going around calling things the Way of the Wookiee or whatever

EDIT: And then I read the rest of the posts and saw they are going, so nm I like the idea of learning your fighting style from your superiors, not masters really, but say a clan would have a certain style they teach, or even House. That might be a good way to handle it because Houses are the ones that teach their new members stuff and fictionally we all have lightsaber training halls somewhere in our headquarters. Maybe, like clan powers, we each have a clan/house variation of a particular lightsaber style? One that could even be created the Clan's themselves with an in depth description on the phsyical and mental aspects of the form. Maybe even at this level members would have varying abilities with the rank they carry. A DJK would obviously have less skill in his house's style then say a DA - or even make it a "time in clan" thing.

That was the shortest Goat post I've ever seen <_<

I have a question........

Does having the two fighting styles actually do anything?

It would be cool if you got different advantages for different styles or something like that.

I think everyone picks to styles that sound fitting... but when we write we just write about swinging a lightsaber around. Unless you have actual training in such a weapon it's pretty hard to tell how forms would differ from one another in combat and writing about it is near impossible Maybe if there were a set of "this form allows you to perform this" "this form forbids you from doing this" rules.

Actually, for the ACC there are a few writers that write their styles extremely well - almost impressive even, but you're right too... the genral populace doesn't really pay much attention - but the Operators should.

The nature of the ACC doesn't really have enough 'stuff' to consider attributes based on sabre style - but the RPG might. If you are a Form 2 guy and spend uber XP on a proficiency level you might get + whatever to a skill check when blocking blaster bolts... without getting too crazy, I'm trying to look into adapting our CS's to be more "specific" - but I don't know if I'm going to go that far yet... but that's not a "no"... yet.

Even having, like Shadow said, a list of syle specific moves that people could write into their posts would make the styles more usable.

ummmm... there is a list like that... its in the ACC Compendium, and always has been...

http://www.darkjedibrotherhood.com/dbjedi/...dium.asp?Part=1

I've never paid attention to the moves/styles, simply because Arania has her very own styles. I should write that into her sheet some time.

The various styles do actually make quite a difference to how your character should fight in theory. The main reason I favour additional forms is because the core seven are those practiced by the Jedi with avoidance of any dark side techniques. No dirty fighting, few killing blows, that sort of thing.

- Form I is quite dark. Its about power and involves a certain amount of willingness to give yourself over to the Force. That can be dangerous for a Jedi as when they're fighting its easy to let go of their control and submit to the dark side. Its quite appropriate as learning stance for our purposes.
- Form II is essentially fencing. Its designed for lightsaber on lightsaber combat. It makes for a good secondary for almost all of us as we also spar with one another at times.
- Form III is basically 'blaster deflection'. For a Jedi Knight it makes sense. I suppose to us it makes sense but its a lot more defence oriented. You're not going to win a saber duel using Form III.
- Form IV is probably the most appropriate combat oriented form for a Jedi. It isn't about power and strength but agility. Again, you can see how that's fitting for a Jedi Knight, less a Dark Jedi.
- Form V is 'blaster return'. It's the same as Form III but with the idea of deflecting the bolts back at your opponent. There's little reason for any Dark Jedi to train in Form III when theres Form V.
- Form VI I don't exactly get that much. I think it's all about defence, guarding people, intercepting blows and stuff.
- Form VII was the least Jedi style, only mastered by Depa Bilaba and created by Mace Windu. It strayed close to the dark side. In Form VII you have to completely let go and allow the Force to guide your movements. It's about lightning fast reflexes and rapid blows.

Is it actually useful to know more than one? Sort of, but if you can master two, why not four, or six, or seven? It's not like a Form II Master can't deflect a blaster bolt, it more just says something about the way they wield a blade. That's where I feel allowing two is a bit much, as it's meant to be a personal thing that reflects your characters belief, having two waters it down from meaningful to largely irrelivant.

Vapaad + Form V = Everything. You've got your crazy powerful attacks and full blaster deflection, hence my lack of support in mastering two.

Trained in one form, master of another. Sure. But thats different. I consider myself a master of form two, that doesn't mean I won't have ventured into the others and incorporated certain aspects into my technique. It just means I think of a lightsaber as a weapon suited for combating other lightsabers.

Isn't Form I just the basic training style wherein everyone learns to hold a saber? Everything I've ever seen on it has led me to believe that it's not really intended to be a combat style, since every other Form is superior to it.

Adding the SWish names of stuff (ie. Form II: Makashi) would be good. Gives a certain degree of variety to posts, and sounds more legitimate than "way of the".



My take on things is that when you select two saber styles it's not that you master both. One is your primary; the other your secondary. You have way more control over the first, but the option of employing the second with a varying degree of success.
In that way a Jedi can adapt somewhat to changing tactical needs.
You might also be better able to predict your opponent's moves if you share a style, even on an unequal footing.

Form I is actually very powerful for a Jedi saber technique.

If you read any story involving Kit Fisto who was the Nautolan Jedi Council member (the green guy with lots of tentacles coming out the back of his head) you'll find that Form I is considered by the Jedi as their most combat oriented form.

Its essentially the crudest form practiced by the Jedi, they are numbered in order of invention after all. Naturally the first one would have been the one most used back in the days of the Sith War when they would have been warriors a lot more than peacekeepers.

I don't really like giving them names at all, it defeats the idea that Vapaad is so nicknamed because it is far more special than any of the others. I'd far rather see us create a new form called Makashi or whatever rather than just go and rename the Jedi forms. Like I said in the quotes taken from IRC: Vapaad would probably be basic training for a Dark Jedi as we don't stick to elegant and peaceful techniques; thats the basis of ALL the Jedi forms.

At the very least I'd quite like us to make a special form for dual wielding and double-bladed lightsabers. If we are really insistent on keeping Vapaad for Dark Adepts+ (which doesn't fictionally make sense, mind) then I'd suggest we have a form seven lite style for training. Its quite easy to think up a few other varieties also. The Jedi techniques avoid allowing the Force to guide their actions any more than necessary, as they don't like using the Force for aggression, thats why Vapaad was so dangerous for them to learn, so we could quite easily have a technique thats basis is basically "always hits" because it involves fully giving yourself over to the dark side for control. The Jedi didn't agree with physical combat either, so a more Darth Maul styled technique that incorporated aspects of martial blows and kicks would be quite nice too.

I don't really read that much SW literature, but look at how the current ACC compendium info is set up. It's taken directly from a whole bunch of mutually supportive websites (whose sources are admittedly unknown to me, but the fact that the info is so pervasive must have something going for it).

So the question really becomes, "do we want to change our information base?" I don't see a viable reason to do that. It just makes things complicated in my mind.

According to the info I've seen (which fits nicely with what we have already):

Shii Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Shien, Niman, Vaapad: these are the names given to the Jedi saber styles.

(and I think we should have names for them, because it allows for greater writing flexibility. Besides which...we have jung mas, and shiaks)

Form I is older, thus crudely effective, but the newer Forms were created as the need to surpass it and gain greater finesse arose. And surpass it they did. Form I centers on destroying your opponent's weapon, which is made nearly impossible by all but maybe Form IV (which lacks defensive value). Thus relegating this Form to a basic training function.

Form II is the elegant duel one, which holds little in the way of blaster deflection.

Form III is the first of the blaster deflection forms. High defensive value. Centered on disarming your opponent. Never really saw that as preferable Form when we have V.

Form IV is the most acrobatic, but it sacrifices defensive value as a trade off, and requires a lot of Force aptitude to maintain.

Form V is the merger of Forms III and IV. It's more aggressive than III, but makes up for IV's defensive shortfalls. It emphasizes blaster deflection, and smashing away at your opponent with heavy-handed tactics.


Form VI is a "jack of all trades; master of none" deal. You learn Forms I-V, but don't specialize in any of them. The main advantage would be surprising your opponent by changing tactics. It's not really a very pragmatic Form, as we can see by Emperor's successful purging of the Jedi.

Form VII is largely experimental, and bordering on the Dark Side. It is the merger of many Forms, but emphasizes IV and V. It's acrobatic to the point of erractic movements, and full of bold strikes. No one has mastered it yet, as it is often as big a threat to the wielder as to the opponent.


I don't see how Dark Jedi could use anything that would be seen as a different style entirely. Maybe different derivations of the original styles. There are only so many ways that you can swing a saber. The Dark Jedi just use more aggression behind their movements. Thus turning Form V from "superior firepower" to Vader sending bolts back at you and pummeling your blade with his.

Putting kicks and punches into a fight doesn't directly tie in with how you wield your saber, or give rise to a new Form. It reflects the martial styles you know and how well you throw them in between saber strikes.

Having said this...

Some sources I've seen state that Niman is the two-handed saber style, and that there's a weird derivation of Form IV called "Sokan".

Actually, if I had my way I would kill ALL of the sabre styles (except VII) and re-write styles specific to the brotherhood... but that wouldn't go over too well with the 'secret' lightsiders that roam the club

What? So I have a green saber...I mean...I have no idea what you're talking about.

/me snarls as an afterthought

To my knowledge all the stuff that seems to be floating around the web and that we currently use in the ACC strikes me as the kind of stuff that probably originated somelike like Supershadow; meaning its most likely nonsense.

I've always wondered where it comes from, as theres no reputable source material that lists it. If anything its often contradictory to the depictions given to characters utilising the various forms. I suppose it may come from the WOTC RPG Sourcebooks, though I have the Jedi Sourcebook and theres nothing about the forms in there; nothing on this level at least.

Dalthid, I'd say go with it; write something new. The current descriptions are way too single minded anyway, the blaster defence ones just come across as if you know that and nothing else. I'd far rather we expanded on the idea of it being defense oriented, kind of like what Teras Kasi is to Teras D'ni, rather than solely made it appear that if you want to reflect blaster bolts you NEED to learn Form III.

The best comparison idea I can think up for a Dark Jedi is if you consider a samurai's learning compared to that of a modern soldier. The samurai learned more than just how to kill someone with his sword; Jedi style, whereas all a modern soldier wants to know about a sword is the most efficient way to use it; Dark Jedi style. Its a difference in approaches. I daresay Darth Maul would have used a lot more Teras Kasi in his technique than he would have any kind of Jedi form. Jedi tried to stay away from incorporating too much Force useage too as it was 'unfair', you don't see Jedi doing Force pushes akin to Darth Maul at the end of Episode I much.

what I can do is to take the framework of the styles and 'darken' them, expand upon the aggression and emotions that make them so

Dark Side variants would probably work like that, yeah.

It seems I'm arguing a case thats outdated. I've just bought KOTOR II as its only just been released here and lo and behold; form names.

Form I: Shii-Cho
Form II: Makashi
Form III: Soresu
Form IV: Ataru
Form V: Shien
Form VI: Niman
Form VII: Juyo

Being that its KOTOR there is the slight contradiction in that Vapaad was invented by Mace Windu, so in theory Form VII shouldn't appear in KOTOR II. That said I'd actually use this as an excuse to say that Juyo is "Form VII Lite" and that Vapaad is "Form VII Advanced". Its said that Vapaad was invented by Mace Windu, nothing stops someone arguing that there could have been previous work into developing a seventh form.

So... it turns out there are names after all.

Though this is even more reason to get rid of the "Way of the..." names, for those are a complete work of fiction; now there are official names we should use them rather than anything made up. I still prefer to call them by number myself, but I daresay others would rather give them names, but its all good either way now.

The basic pros and cons given in KOTOR II fit in with the descriptions that have flaoted around in the past and elaborate a little to give us a bit more to base our own descriptions on:

Form I
Single Enemy: Fair
Many Enemies: Very Good
Opponent-Lightsaber: Fair
Opponent-Blaster: Good
Force: Fair

Form II
Single Enemy: Fair
Many Enemies: Fair
Opponent-Lightsaber: Very Good
Opponent-Blaster: Poor
Force: Good

Form III
Single Enemy: Good
Many Enemies: Poor
Opponent-Lightsaber: Poor
Opponent-Blaster: Excellent
Force: Fair

Form IV
Single Enemy: Excellent
Many Enemies: Poor
Opponent-Lightsaber: Fair
Opponent-Blaster: Poor
Force: Fair

Form V
Single Enemy: Poor
Many Enemies: Good
Opponent-Lightsaber: Good
Opponent-Blaster: Excellent
Force: Fair

Form VI
Single Enemy: Good
Many Enemies: Good
Opponent-Lightsaber: Good
Opponent-Blaster: Good
Force: Good

Form VII
Single Enemy: Very Good
Many Enemies: Good
Opponent-Lightsaber: Very Good
Opponent-Blaster: Fair
Force: Poor

Just what do the styles have to do with the Force?

I actually put thought into what style i really wanted, i chose a small creature, made him crazy fast, (small things are often more dexterious than large hulking beasts) choosing the form four, using your speed and agility for attacking rather than just swinging like a troll. For the RP sense that would be most logical and sought it out. Who doesn't like a ewok force jumping over your head and munching on your ankles every once and a while?

Does that mean force usage or what? Because in that case Force usage would be very high for forms like IV and VII but lower in those such as VI.

Just what do the styles have to do with the Force?



A lot actually. I mean, the reason most people don't go around using lightsabers in the first place is because the skill needed to wield one is based in the force. So you normally need some sort of handle on the force in order to effectively use a lightsaber. That also means each form has some sort of "force usage".

As stated already, certain forms use more in different ways. Forms used for blocking blasters and such needs a lot of attack anticipation powers along with some quick movements...

Form IV really needs the force for the quick and acrobatic attacks (ie. Yoda). Having a high dexterity helps as well

Form VII is pretty much giving yourself into the force completely. Your actions are guided by the force and not your own doing.

Well, several people use sabers without being force sensitive. Callista for one - she lost her connection to the Force.

Aurra Sing left the jedi order but occasionally uses a lightsaber. I would assume she lost her connection since she couldnt practice it without being hunted.

Yes, Xhedias, you do have a nice character. "Swinging like a troll"...I resent that!

And NOBODY likes the ewok ankle munching. Those things give you rabies...fleas...and other things too horrible to describe.


I'm not quite sure what you've got in mind Dal, as I said, "there are only so many ways to swing a saber". Fencing between a good guy and an evil dude is still fencing…it just becomes angry, overly aggressive fencing. Really I just see it as the philosophical difference between where the saber stops (before or after it passes through your neck). But please develop your idea.

Let's move on to the topic of martial arts.


We know that saber proficiency is rank related (which is pretty much a function of time in training, and increasing control of the Force). So what of hand to hand styles?

Should it be like every other weapon? It's not Force related (specifically) after all, and theoretically it should be possible to become a master before your character even joins the Brotherhood. In that case giving yourself a 5 makes you a master...at least of your primary style.

But if that's the case...then the ACC is insanely full of masters of even of the most challenging styles. Some of the forms boast near invincibility.

Take Knifist for example. I should be able to knock away any non-energy bladed weapon without getting a scratch (so long as I'm unarmed), while still being able to practice another form beyond that. Is that...fair and realistic? Maybe, maybe not.

We should also remember that hand to hand is about STYLES, not about how well you handle a CLASS of weapons (ie. how well you handle a spear in general). The “handedness” issue that Dal is debating already would constitute the class of hand use in general.


Perhaps we should have it so that a 5 denotes "specialization"; whereas 5 + having primary and secondary styles as the same thing denotes "mastery" (it would display complete devotion to that style)? It seems as though there should be some sort of penalty to that effect.


On the other hand....

Perhaps the doubling up of styles for "mastery" shouldn't apply to EVERY style.

-Knifist has a penalty already (must be completely unarmed). What would be the incentive to double up on a weaponless style when there are battles where you pretty much need to have a weapon (like a saber duel)...especially when all the other styles allow you to carry weapons?


This point doesn't stick for Echani, because even though it requires such a high level of authorization to use (a penalty) it balances that out by being probably the best style available in the ACC (hence why it's so restricted in the first place).



Then again I am insane...and a rambling madman at the best of times.

It's a complicated idea, but it seems like a fair argument in my mind.

My head hurts....

I think it would be sweet if the fighting styles had points attributed to them...and a set of moves and combos that would be available depending on how many points you've spent on them.

So you get four points in arts, you can spend 3 on Teras Kasi, and get the moves associated with that, and one in knifist, and the basic moves from that.

To balance things out, you could make one rank of echani cost 2 points, or make certain ranks in other arts requirements...like you need to have 3 in Teras Kasi before you take 1 in Teras D'ni.

The scale at which you gain points could be just enough so that you have finally mastered one form at knight, and gotten another mastery at say adept.

The same kind of scale/potential could be applied to the sabre forms, although mastery of a sabre style at knight would be somewhat unreal.

This may be too rules-intensive, and would require a lot of work, but I'd be more than willing to do a lot of the work, if that's the way someone wants to go... heck, if i get that video camera i was looking at, i could even post kata for the compendium(in full lit sabre mode, no less).

I actually like that idea Muz... it would be comparable to a normal RPG character setup where your skill with a lightsaber or your fists is measured in the same sense as your skill with a blaster or other weapons.

The idea of having the martial arts split into points akin to the blasters and other weapons would be a logical approach. That way you could either be lame at everything or a master of one. It would also be a way of balancing and ensuring that every apprentice that joins isn't magically a Teras Kasi Master (after all; possible as it may be, where would they have learned it from?).

The best way of doing it would probably be to have "basic styles" and "advanced styles". I doubt Shock Boxing would be anywhere near as hard to master as Echani for example. Therefore it would possibly work to have 1 skill rank in Echani cost 2 points and 1 skill rank in Shock Boxing cost 1 point.

That's an extremely simplified approach but the idea would be if a new apprentice wanted to join and be a boxing champion, they could. It'd be a far more simple form of combat and something they could have expected to master. However if they wanted to learn something much more advanced such as Teras Kasi they'd not be able to immediately join the club as a master but would have to work for it.

Ideally I would suggest blasters (and other weapons), lightsabers and martial arts styles ALL draw from the same primary points source. That way it would force you to characterise who you are so we're not all master sharpshooters, master martial artists and master swordfighters. It would mean if you wanted to become an expert long range fighter you would pool the majority of your points into blaster weaponry. If you wanted to become an expert swordsman you would pool most of your points into lightsaber styles. If you wanted to become a master martial artist you'd pool your points into that.

Teras Kasi Masters were, after all, meant to be a group of people who fought Jedi and killed them. Its kind of stupid if every new member is instantly a Jedi-killer. It also would mean that some DJMs might want to specialise not as a top lightsaber swordsman but as a top Teras Kasi master, both would be equally powerful, just with very different styles.

All of the things said here make a lot of sense. I agree with Xanos' arguments, and what some of the others have said.

Why hasn't all of this been implemented yet, then?

Logically, it makes sense. It would allow for more diverse and advanced RP in the battles.

If Dalthid agrees, we can start talk through it and i'll start working on it immediately...maybe with Goat's help. I have several pages of ideas about it that i could convert rather easily into a balanced system with his help.

It's up to Dalthid. He might not want it at all.

I'm psychotic enough and have a digicam... i could even have enough pics to illustrate correct grips and such for the styles...
(Although i really don't get form 6...diplomat's form seems to have no real life style to base off of)

Hmm... I never knew you read Nietsche, Muz...

Anywho, I think the only major problem is the recoding work it'd construe on the character sheets.

HOWEVER

In theory all you'd nee to do is where we currently have the Lightsaber/Blaster/Polearms etc. part is expand it with a few martial art forms and rethink the points alocations per rank.

Just cause someone was wondering why this hasn't been done...

simply? because we can't. I've said it a lot, but not much in this thread I don't think - nothing for the database concerning points, CS's - with the exception of basic text that already exists - can be changed right now.

Besides, what does it matter? out of all the cobatants who've fought in the ACC, I have only seen 5 (maybe) actually write in a sabre style. And martial arts, with the exception of those same few, seems to be used as a punch line, or purely for 'terminology'. Heck, I even tried to write an actaul sequence once (the crucifix - yea, I know it's illegal ) and lost because the judge didn't know what I was writing. So - keeping it simple would prolly be the best bet.

So, if you want to rewrite the combat manual - my inbox is waiting, because I'm not doing it

Oh, and with every brand new DJK being able to stock 5 points right into their sabre skill - the combat manual is pretty much just fluff anyway... dont'cha think?

Part of me actually wonders whether Lightsaber skill should work more according to rank, aka.

DJK - 1
KP - 2
KAP - 3
KE - 4
KPN - 5
DA - Vapaad etc

Or something. Though, I know, I know: people would bitch. It'd make sense though, as there is just no way a DJK would be as good as a KPN. I can imagine though that the problem would be people would think 1 point = crap at using a lightsaber, which wouldn't have to be true, and 1 point could even mean the equivalent of 5 points in a normal weapon. Oh well...

EDIT - Let me change that. A DJK wouldn't be as good as a KPN if they both had the same Force affinity. Here's hoping that the Rebirth RPG CS and stuff lets you choose whether to become a lightsaber expert, a Force expert, or a mediocre mix of both. If somebody wanted to sacrifice their improved affinity for the Force to be as good as a KPN with a lightsaber at DJK though, sure.

I do worry about writing too in character actually. I often want to refer to lightsaber styles and things but always think "whoever marks this isn't gonna have a clue what the hell I'm talking about". I normally just end up using the form names more as a cameo appearance than something meaningful, although I do try to draw a clear distinction between my Vapaad: kill everything in sight and Makashi: refined lightsaber-on-lightsaber form variations.

Don't know if you know this or not, but we don't approve points. The CS's are approved/declined BEFORE the points are allocated by the individual. If we approved/declined after they selected their points, something like sabre skill being equal to rank would have been implemented ages ago - FYI.

Just one comment on the lightsaber styles. Although I am not DJK yet, I have chosen Ataru as my primary form. Just because your evil doesn't mean you have to have this big, hulking super-powerful impression. You could be this very stealthy and quick demon figure and be just as evil. My opinion is that you could have any style, even defensive, if your intensions are evil and you use this defencesive style to your own designs.

The way a person fights does not dictate whether they are evil or not, but WHEN and WHY they fight. Style is rather irrelevant, as motivation can turn the most benign style into lethal strikes.

Having said that, Wait for the Sabre combat guide before you get your heart set on any one style... You may find another that you like more.

*hint, hint*

if youre a protector and get a training saber then can you use saber styles or do you ruff it? does anyone have "proven" info that protectors will get training sabers when rebirth occurs?

Your always going to learn a style. Its like any sport, in baseball you stand in a certain position when you are batting, in golf you move your arms in a certain motion. "Ruffing it" would very much just walking out into combat and swinging the lightsaber, you would get cut up by your opponent so fast it would have been safer for you to hide under your bed.

ok, now it makes more sense. thanks

We're in talks right now about whats going to happen in terms of training sabers.

The starting rank for training sabers still needs to be fixed. It may be as low as ACO but it could end up being a little higher such as PRT or GRD. There will be training sabers but the exact rank you get them at still needs a final decision. It won't be any higher than GRD though.

Its also undecided whether you'll start learning proper lightsaber forms with a training saber or not. It may be as a Journeymen you only get access to a generic "Lightsaber Basics" skill and not any of the more advanced training. Its more likely you'll start learning one of the normal forms though and will be set up so you will be close to mastering (if not mastering) your first form at DJK.

Whatever happens, the details still needing to be decided, you will get a training saber, its just a case of deciding exactly at what rank and how much skill you get with it under DJK.

And also if it will be allowed in the ACC or not Remember, the RPG and the ACC will be autonomous.