A change in Sith rank?

Forget about my bull[Expletive Deleted]. It was never intended as "You have to have this," but apparently, that was never clear, and quite frankly, I'm sick of it all. So what do you get? Well, apparently we love polls. So you get one. And yes, I closed the other topic, because I'd rather have people do it here. Vote either yes or no. If you vote yes, please, leave suggestions as to what you would prefer. If you don't leave a suggestion, you're not really being proactive, and that's just lazy. So have fun with it, 10 days is the length the poll will run. At the end of 10 days, if the "Yes" wins out, I'll start polls on DJB.com for how the ranks should go, trying to utilize every possible combination, or I'll just list them all up there, take the four most popular, and then vote on combinations of those.

Sith Warrior
Sith Marauder
Sith Adjudicator
Sith Warlord

Okay here we go.

I am a Sith warrior and 'grew up' in the TC Clone sith Order. we were pilots and thats all we could do. I hated it. I hated every second of it but because I am an RPer there was no way in hell i was gonna pick another Order. My character is a Sith and recently Ive enjoyed Sith more than ever. The Order description on in the compendium kicks ass in my personal oppinion. It shows the Sith as being not only warriors but thinkers, political monsters and the shadows of the night.

That being said, i don't like the idea of being constrained to being a "Warrior'. My character has a mind for being a fighter and an assassin but also is starting to think in a more political sense. As my character progresses in rank he changes. My character sheet has always changed character description. when I first started, my character wore a trenchcoat, had a gun by his side and fought with knives. Now he wears more 'Sith-like' attire and got rid of his gun. With each of our ranks we progress into the Darkness and slowly step into the history of the Order. Our ranks should reflect this change.

Seraph is a rank I like personally like but not for the purpose we are discussing. I see seraph much like the Sith'Aran. They are guardians and amazing warriors. Royal Guard to the SHW anyone? I would say give all the Royal guards specific group titles depending on who they are 'guarding'

As for Overlord, it works but at the same time it doesnt. Seems very much Tarkin Doctrine-ish to me but at the same time who wouldnt wanna be addressed as "Overlord'. Warrior I like because it is very much so an established Sith rank through much of the EU. Warlord.....well what can you say about warlord. keep it if you want but just saying warlord makes cringe. I would never wanna be addressed a Warlord. Makes me think Zsinj and thats one of those things that makes you go "Blugh." Warmaster. Meh. It can stay but seriously...lets try for something else if thats what the goal of this thread is all about.

These ranks work fine the way they are but if people are unhappy with them then lets go all out. Who wants just one wall in a room painted right?

Maurader is one that i like. It would be the first of the Equite ranks. a Maurader is chaotic unguided. They have just stepped itno something that they have no idea about. This comes after knight. I say this because a Knight has just reached top of the food chain in the Journeyman ranks. He has come a long way to be sure and things are stable for the journeyman. Then he steps into the Equites. suddenly things are turned upside down. New powers open and things rush the knight and the boat starts rocking. Chaos comes into play and suddenly the knight isnt top dog anymore. Hes the new kid on the block. Thefore..Maurader.

next comes the warrior. A warrior to me is someone who has control of themselves and their body. The chaos they knew as a Maurader has calmed. The boat isnt about to capsize anymore. They have learned to control their new powers. Being able to control their bodies they may now focus on their minds. Just muscles and a big sword with lots of gusto in combat dont make a warrior. Thats only one side of the coin. A warrior is at peace with himself and knows that a battle is 90% mental. They begin to become more scholar like in their lifestyles. The analyse combat and their enemies. They dig into the past and begin to learn from past mistakes as well of lost powers. That is a warrior to me.

The next rank ive seen that sparked something with me was Shadow. Its not as constraining as Assassin. A shadow starts to work the inner sides of combat and a new battlefield. Politics. They begin to be more subtle. To be able to strike at a single target. they know they can decimate large areas of the enemy but have seen the fear of what the subtle knife can do. Fear may spread through mass destruction but the Shadow has learned that even more fear spreads through a single elimination or even the threat of force. Is a man more scared of the enemy he can see or by the one he can not see? Along with the more martial ways comes the battlefield of politics. The shadow has seen that true power comes from manipulating the minds of beings with mere words. To be able to control everything without having to be so wasteful of power. Fear of force is just as powerfuil as force itself. This belief epitomises what it means to be a Sith and shows their truw goal of absolute power. Such is the Sith Shadow.

Finally comes the Sith Despot. (if you can think of something that sounds better for a ruler then tell me) The despot is a tyrranical ruler. A Dark being of power who is in love with himself and cares little for those beneath him. He rules with an iron fist and fear is his ally. The Despot is most often a reknown combat practitioner and never turns down a challenge of martial might but also plays the game of minds. The despot spreads his influence into the minds of his subjects and his enemies. Breaking and strengthening morale are the key to his victories. They also are the power that keeps his underlings in line. A silver tongue is a trademark for the Sith Despot and they fully believe they are the leaders to the Final way. They despise other orders because they see them as leeches who have latched onto the successes of the Sith. They are the tops of the Equite path and envy only the power of the Elders.

So there you have it. Complete descriptions and name of ranks. Go ahead and start tearing them apart. I now need a drink.

I like Maurader/Warrior, Elite, Warlord, and Overlord. Don't like Warmaster though..."blugh" indeed.

Warlord and Overlord connote the same things as Shadow and Despot, respectively, but they sound better to me. I'm not totally against those two new ideas though.

Nice descriptions, Sykes.

My two cents on the matter...

Overlord...I've never liked. I don't think that's a big secret. I'm one of those people who is widely read and researched, and whenever I've seen "Overlord"...they commanded slave troops. They weren't people you trusted with regulars or even militia because...well...they sucked.

Well, how do you progress past Warlord? Well, Seraph was a suggestion since...well...read the closed topic. That's pretty much what you progress past on the battlefield. Can't beat a supernatural entity that swings the tide of a battle, can you?

I've never catered to the idea of dumbing anything down. I don't believe in playing to people's ignorance or idiocy: that's banal at best. Raise the bar. Make people think. I certainly don't think our members, as a whole, are creatures of base intelligence, and I think they can jolly well do their own homework on matters.

That said, we could reinstate Warlord as the highest rank for the Sith Equites. And revamp the middle two. I like Warrior. It fits.

In the years that I've been a member of the Sith Order, I've always held that the Sith were the Lords and Knights of our organization. The Krath our Scholars, Mystics and Statesmen. The Obelisk were our warrior elite. But the Sith...they were our Knights Templar, our Immortals. The title is, after all, Dark Lord of the Sith. Not to insult the other two orders, but that's the crux - Sith.

Well, borrowing from those two examples. What about :

Sith Warrior
Sith Turcoplier
Sith Drapier
Sith Warlord

Yes...I know what you're thinking? What the hell is a Turcoplier and isn't a Drapier the profession of the guy on Queer Eye For The Straight Guy that does internal decorating? Turcopliers were the guys whose duty it was to defend the standard. The flag that the Knights charged under. Their duty was to die before the flag touched the ground or the enemy got their hands on it to desecrate it. To this end, the Turcoplier commanded the Sergent Brothers, and walked in the lead march in battle. A Drapier was in charge of the garments. Now, this meant that it was their sworn duty to act to ensure that no one did anything that disgraced the Brotherhood, and to mette out punishments as brave as possible for even the slightest misdeed.

Although I still like "Seraph," I understand that my view might be biased. That said, I see no problems with the ranks that Bf already proposed.

There have been quite a number of htings on my mind, of which, some of you may be aware. Others are not, but don't worry, they're not important. In the time since I announced that I wanted to change things, a lot of "excitement" has transpired. For the first time in a long while, a good number of people became interested in what was happening to the Sith Order. What's more, not only was there interest in the happenings within the Order, but outside of the Order. For better or worse, people are interested in what happens to the Sith, just like people are interested in what happens to the Krath, and the Obelisk.

The comment was made that I am "stubborn about things the I like." That's not entirely accurate. Am I stubborn? Absolutely. I'm also very honest, often blunt, and emphatic about things I believe. This was never an issue about "what I like," so much as it was about "what I think." I think the Sith Order needs to make changes. Apparently, so do a number of other people. Yes, we disagreed on the exact specifics of those changes, but that doesn't bother me. The reason I asked for suggestions, opinions, etc., was for interaction, and for people to care about the future of the Order. That was the response; people care about the Order. And quite honestly, there were better suggestions made than I had originally thought.

Seraph was never my first choice. I liked Seraph, and still do, because of the connotation of power and superiority it holds, as well as the "supernatural" state it implies. Yes, for some people it's "too angelic," no matter what context I implied with it. It's basically been stated that some people are too ignorant to care about the full meanings of things, or the prior meanings of things, but I don't believe that's the case. People know what they like, including the populace of the DB. And there have been several conclusions made. There are very few people who actually like "Overlord." There are people who like the current ranks, but nearly everyone thinks we need to have a "Star Wars feel." Yes, Star Wars is a mass of history manipulated to look new, but that's beside the point.

Overlord is going away, and that's not something I'm going to step down on. I don't like it as a rank, I don't believe it fits. The general concensus seems to be that Warrior and Warlord are liked, with any other two ranks being debated on. Most people seem to like Warrior and Warlord at opposing ends of the rank spectrum. There's also some liking towards Marauder. Personally, if we want to go for a "more Star Wars feel," I agree, Marauder should be used. Anyone familiar with the Star Wars D20 game knows that, the three Sith archetypes are Acolyte, Lord and Warrior. Acolyte is already taken, but Marauder seems to work well. Lord doesn't seem to be opening up anytime soon. My first choice to replace Overlord had actually been "Sith Lord," but that's not likely to happen unless someone can convince Jac to let that go beyond the GM and DGM.

If you're worried about "angelic changes," don't be. I was never going to be stubborn and force those changes upon people, but I wanted people to be completely informed, and at least be open to new ideas, and to changes. Instead of just asking for rank name ideas, and spending weeks going through multiple votes, I spent a few months mulling over ideas, trying to come up with reasons behind it, and an image for the Order. Personally, I was fed up with seeing transfer request after transfer request of Initiates STILL saying they didn't want to be Sith because they didn't want to be pilots. So I figured, I'd start from the ground up, and reinvent things. And yes, I know, some people don't think the Sith can be reinvented, and that we have to go with what's put out in the movies and games. Just FYI, the movies and games dealing with the Sith have been prior to the fictional times of the DB. They don't have as much bearing "now" as you might think.

Yeah, "long-winded SHW's seem to be a trend." I've been told, you have to be long-winded to fill the role, but it's more because there's a lot on my mind, and I want you all to be aware of it. I don't have as much time as I used to, and when I find time, I try to devote it to the Brotherhood. And lately, it means saying what I can, while I can. I've had a lot of people tell me via AIM or IRC, that they actually like Seraph, that they like the idea I was going with, as far as "choruses," (though most didn't like the name "chorus/choir," but that was a tentative title). Yes, I could just make the changes anyways, and rename the ranks according to my desires, but that has never been my goal, or my intention. My intention is to have a proactive, dynamic Order. The Sith as a fictional race were not passive. The Sith as a quasi-cult of two were. I prefer to have us fictionally emulate the former, and also be more dynamic in the real sense, too. This does mean examining what we have, and what we are, negating the crap, and filling in the voids with good, creative thinking.

"The Sith are truly canon, and can't be as unique as the Krath and Obelisk." I call bull[Expletive Deleted]. I'm sorry, but if people are going to go see Revenge of the Sith, see what "Sith really are," and then come to the DJB, the first thing they're going to say is, "Why are there so many Sith?" The second thing they're going to say is, "Why can't myname be Darth [whatever]?" We have molded the Sith into what we believe they would be, and we give ourselves whatever image suits us. People aren't going to be detracted from the Brotherhood because "We're not Star Wars enough!" I don't think enough credit is being given to the willingness of people to adapt, and believe what is presented, as well as the desire of people to be able to shape their own corner of the Star Wars universe.

Anyways, as far as the ranks are concerned, you don't have to worry about Seraph being forced upon you. Yes, I still intend to put it into the final vote, but it's not a certainty. I intend to put Marauder into the final vote, along with Warrior, and Warlord, and whatever other good suggestions are put forth. Personally, I like the effort Sykes put into his post and ideas, and would ask the rest of you to do the same. If you don't have any good, unique suggestions, that's fine. If you like what someone else has put forward, make it known. Encourage, and put your support behind whatever you like. This is "my Order," but even I don't believe that. This is your Order. The only thing I require this to be, is a proactive, dynamic, living Order. And I hope you can all understand, and appreciate those sentiments, because honestly, I can't stand stagnation, nor can I deal with the idea that "we have to be rigid, unyielding, static representations of the movies and games."

The choice of what happens within this Order is yours. The only stipulation is, you have to represent yourself. Make your voice heard, and make your opinions known.

I really liked Sykes' ideas. Marauder fits nicely and Shadow really struck a chord with me for some reason, however Despot just doesn't sound right.

Since Warrior and Warlord still seem to hold favor, how about this:

Sith Marauder
Sith Warrior
Sith Shadow
Sith Warlord

This way, we can have the "Lord" title in the highest rank and, in keeping with Sykes' descriptions, have a clear progression in rank.

Just my thoughts.

My ideal rank structure would be as follows :-

Sith Warrior
Sith Predator
Sith Warlord
Sith Lord

Failing Jac leting us have Sith Lord which I don't see a problem with as we are clearly NOT following Bane's rule anymore and if we are then sorry every GM has to die when he leaves as he would be a threat

But assuming we can't have that then :-

Sith Warrior
Sith Predator
Sith Warlord
Sith Master

Is this grabbing on to DJM? No I don't think so people at the top rank of the Sith chart should pretty much be top of the heap in terms of Sith powers.

Hmmm...

I actually really like what Virulence suggested.

Sith Marauder
Sith Warrior
Sith Shadow
Sith Warlord

Not a single one of them is made up, they give room for interpretation, and its kind of hard to get words that are anymore Sith than those four. Plus they're not generic but still imply different things depending on point of view, I can see Marauders and Warriors as, well, what the names say. I can see a Shadow in a number of ways, be it a Palpatine-esque shadow (he's frequently called the shadow coughphantommenacecough) or more of a dark assassin figure, so it would cover both a warrior and a more dark advisory role. Then Warlord has various interpretations, be they crude or of more majestic bearing.

Yeah, I guess I actually like those four quite a lot. Its nice to see them coming from a relatively new member too, meaning they'd probably have more popularity and life than something I could come up with myself thats stuck more in a mid-90s fan appeal than a new-millenium fan appeal.

maybe kensai instead of shadow

You would have my vote for

Sith Marauder
Sith Warrior
Sith Shadow (More fitting then assasin)
Sith Lord / Warlord

I would rather have "Sith Lord" as Lord in and of itself is a more majestic and regal title but I would be happy enough with the whats readily available. With Lord Marshal and Lord Hedgemon already floating around Jac can keep Darth and be happy

Though I'd still prefer the ranks not be changed, if they were...
Sith Warrior (It's been there the longest, I like it staying there... but that's just me)
Sith Marauder
Sith Shadeweaver (I like this term because... I like making up terms, and it combines the idea of sorcery and assassination into one... Alternatively, could go with Duskweaver, Shadowcaster, Shade/Shadow/Duskcaller or something... people may think its lame, shrug. Perhaps it's too much of a break from the previous warrior inclination. If so, Shadow works, I suppose.)
Sith Warlord (Because it's an oldie and a goodie, and I think it fits the mentality of the Sith being masters of "war"... and it sounds better than "Warmaster" My main issue with Lord really has to do with the fact that the other two order ranks, to me, imply Lord of their given field, and I'd like to see the Sith rank stick with that. So, Sith Warlord. )

I like:

Warrior
Marauder
Shadow
Lord / Warlord

I am strongly opposed to changing the ranks. However, if for some reason they were changed again, I would go with:

DJK
SW: Sith Warrior
SBM: Sith Battlemaster
SBL: Sith Battlelord
SWL: Sith Warlord
DA

Look familiar? Good. They should... Why are we wasting effort on trying to change the ranks again? The first time was a mistake. A second time would start a tradition... Perhaps we should concentrate on other things instead? <_<

" I actually really like what Virulence suggested.

Sith Marauder
Sith Warrior
Sith Shadow
Sith Warlord " ... Xanos.

Me too. I agree wholeheartedly. Much better than Overlord. Just my opinion. Nice ideas, Virulence. Especially the marauder term.

Mav's idea rocks my socks

It keeps some of the old ranks while adding some fresh new blood in there, maybe it will make some of the rogues come back and work for a promotion to get a cooler rank name .

Okay so i just got out of the shower and decided to read this.

Marauder
Warrior
Shadow
Despot or Lord

Still not a fan of Warlord but whatever. Its a slim chance to get that rank so Im not worried I like just "Lord'. Gives the ruler idea of Overlord. Dictator like name. But I cant stop think 'Zsinj' when i hear Warlord. But that may just be me. Meh.

In all honesty, I'd prefer to see "Sith Lord," too. The whole "Rule of Two" was what basically requires only two Sith, SWRPG basically says to be a Sith Lord, you have to choose the class, blah blah, blah. It's sort of an outdated idea to suggest only two Sith Lords, especially when we have an Order full of Sith. The idea has been tossed about that Darth or Lord should be "freed up" to the Order, and out of the two, I'd rather see Lord as a rank, though I'm sure others would like to see Darth made available. It'd all depend on Jac's opinion, and if he's willing to allow either/or.

Warrior, Marauder, [something], and Warlord seem to be hitting a general concensus. The two more popular seem to focus around either "Shadow," or a variant of it, like Mav's suggestion of "Shadeweaver," which is pretty interesting. The thought was mentioned to me the other day, that it might appear as "destabilization," or such, to be changing the ranks again. It's been about two years since the ranks were changed, which isn't a short amount of time. If you consider that the DB needs to be a dynamic organization, continuing to adapt, and bring in new ideas to capture the interest and creativity of the Star Wars community, it's not a bad idea. Yes, I know, it's the opinion of some that we have to maintain an aura of stability, and represent "what's in the source." I don't see cosmetic changes as unstable, nor representative of any form of uncertainty about the DB's future. And maybe that's just me, but I wanted to at least touch on the subject, which it was on my mind.

Which brings up another subject. If you don't understand something, don't follow someone's train of thought (especially mine), or disagree with something, it's perfectly alright to disagree. I've always tried to ake sure I'm open, easily approachable, and reachable to anyone who needs me. If you have a question, or concern, feel free to voice it, either by email, IRC (when I'm around), or public forum. The only thing I'd ask is, give me the courtesy that you'd like, and that I try to extend. Yes, sometimes we all get upset, and even I can be a prick about things. If I am, I apologize, and want you to know I am here at your behest, and here for your benefit. If you don't feel able to approach me, tell your Summits, and get them voicing your concerns to me, or whomever you have issues with.

Anyhoo, keep leaving your suggestions, your opinions, and don't forget to vote if you haven't already.

Well since I won't have been the first person to suggest it...

I always wanted the fourth rank as Sith Lord. Always. If people are actually open to that idea I have no objections whatsoever. Well, ummm... I might want a demotion from Dark Adept to Sith Lord, but that's about it

That means my vote changes to:

Sith Warrior
Sith Marauder
Sith Shadow
Sith Lord

No repetition at all (no use of 'war' twice). I love it. I'm not adverse to Mav's suggestion of Shadeweaver though I feel it's got too much of a Dark Elf overtone to it, and Shadow seems like a rank I could easily label Palpatine with (again, think Phantom Menace) than Shadeweaver.

*shrugs*

Shadowlord instead of Warlord?

Instead of Shadeweaver, perhaps Shadetouched or something. I dunno. Shadow seems just too simple to me, but simplicity isn't always a bad thing.

Well...if we go back darth should stay with the GM and DGM but Lord shoudlnt be a problem. the old sith empire had hundred of Sith lords. they all reported to the Dark lord of the Sith. No problems really.

And keep Marauder in first place. Only makes sense for it to be there like that.

I feel that Warlord should stay...somewhere on there. It embodies some of what we've moved the Sith Order towards. Masters of the battlefield, more at home sending massive armies clashing against each other than hosting some superfluous and ridiculously expensive soiree.

Interestingly enough, "Marauder" ties in people intersted in D20 star wars as new recruits.
I like it.

Warlord may be necessary. I spoke with Jac, and the one major concern of his was, by there being a rank of "Sith Lord," the other Orders may desire to have "Krath/Obelisk Lord," as well. We spoke about Warrior and Marauder, and though he likes Warrior before Marauder, we did talk about the sense in the progression of refinement, and control that is inferred between the names Warrior and Marauder, that Sykes had talked about.

I cannot see a reason not to have Krath Lord and Obbliesk Lord either, I know alot of the Krath dislike thier top rank so give them Krath Lord if nothing else it ties the orders togeather a bit.

Personally I'd argue that Sith Lord is one of the perks of the Sith Order, as its a hallmark to the legacy the Order inherits as the heirs to the original Sith Empire, a claim neither the Krath nor the Obelisk Orders have for neither ever held dominion over an empire. But thats me. If the Krath and/or Obelisk wanted their top rank changed I'd rather see some other noble sounding terms pulled out, rather than simply using Lord (despite the confusion Star Wars has always created, Lord is actually a very low rank on the nobility scale).

While I still like Sith Shadow, I did think about the following if some people didn't like it:

Sith Marauder
Sith Warrior
Sith Warlord
Sith Lord

Or something... shrug. My vote is still with Marauder, Warrior, Shadow, Lord/Warlord though.

I'd have to agree with Pyralis on this one...

I'd have to agree with Pyralis on this one...



Indeed.

I'm of two minds for this one...in terms of Sith-rank choices. I am currently leaning towards going back to the original ranks...as Pyralis stated (although if possible I would love Warlord to become Sith Lord). Those ranks were great and there were never any real qualms about them...they had to be changed for various reasons, but there was never any real disagreement for them (other than Obbies sharing the same ranks at the time).

I do like the term Marauder however, and wouldn't be against having that included in the Sith ranking as the first Equite rank for Sith.

However, I do not like the term "Shadow" for a Sith rank. Firstly, I don't like the flow it gives the rankings...I do know the reasoning behind it, but I still see it as breaking up a warrior/ruler setting. Secondly, and this is a slightly more slefish reason, but Arcona are Masters of the Shadow...although I know this rank refers to Shadows in a more metaphorical way, I would still prefer not having that slight discrepancy.

So, I'm against Shadow-anything, yay for old ranks, Maraduer is fine

While I've nothing against the old ranks, I can be as nostalgic for them as anyone else, I do have my fears. Mostly because while they might have support it tends to be mostly around those of us are just so used to them we have no real qualms with them. I've nothing against Battlemaster because it is so common to me that I've come to accept it, however, I think from a brand new viewpoint I'd probably more likely claim it wasn't as typically "Star-Warsy" as some of the other ideas, like Marauder for instance.

Its a shame that theres no way of having a poll where you can work out the demographics of it, see which generations of members like what, etc. It'd probably be quite an interesting thing to look at to see the various correlations.

btw, the original ranks will be one of the options to vote on. I'm not sure yet if I'll have it as a set bundle, or just toss Battlemaster and Battlelord into the mix, but they will be represented. As a second note, I never had any ill-feelings towards Orders having similar ranks, but maybe I'm alone on that one. If each Order wants to have the peak rank of the Equites be Lord, I'm not against it. I know others will be, and there's mixed feelings on it, anyways.

I must admit I haven't read the entire original thread (dang headache, and by the time I could be bothered to read, it was not really up to date anymore...), but about Seraph... if it sounds to light, add 'dark' to it, creating something like Dark Seraph, or Seraph of Darkness. if it sounds lame, feel free to shoot me. but I like the sound of Dark Seraph.

second, the Lord ranks. I don't know. they 'sound' more powerful then Dark Adept, at least on first impression. but, if I'm always open for discussion.

I have to admit that a Sith Lord does actually both sound (and is fictionally) more powerful than a Dark Jedi Master.

Essentially because they mean the same thing, the difference is a Dark Jedi Master is just a generic Dark Jedi, whereas a Sith Lord isn't just an ordinary Dark Jedi Master but a Sith, hence uber-Dark Jedi, so to speak.

In that sense, yes, Sith Lord is probably inappropriate. Poll wise though everyone (myself included) is almost guarenteed to vote for it, who wouldn't? Its like giving the whole Order a promotion to above Grand Master.

Gee thanks Xanos. I was hoping they wouldnt realise that until AFTER it was decided as a final vote. *thwaps Xanos* good going. Geez....

Heh. Sorry

Its better to discuss it now though I guess rather than later when all the little Krathies and Obbies are upset.

Thinking about it (and this is going into the realms of "never going to happen") the problem is probably because really the Equites and the Elders are the wrong way around from a fictional understanding. It would probably make more logical sense if people were a Dark Jedi Knight, then a Dark Adept, then a Dark Jedi Master, then (after mastering the basics of the dark side) decided on their specialisation and picked an specific path to excel in, so they'd then become a Sith Warrior, then a Sith Warlord, then a Sith Lord or whatever.

Like I say though, thats in the realm of "never going to happen" but does partially explain why our ranks will always look wrong to one group of people, as some people will always look at it the way the terms are normally looked at in a Star Wars setting. I normally do, I've just been used to this way for six years that I don't care anymore, but I can see how some people these days might see more logic in Sith Lord > Dark Jedi Master, or indeed Sith *anything* > Dark Jedi Master.

My own take on the whole thing, I think it just needs to be tweaked at the Elders. I don't like "Dark Jedi master," But I do like Dark Master. On the flipside, I don't like the look of "DM," but "DJM" is ok. Personally, I'd be ok with getting rid of the "Dark Jedi" at the rank, and just having it be "Master," but maybe that's just me.

As far as "Lord" being above Grand Master, I don't see that at all. From a Sith stand point, no Sith Lord is greater than the Dark Lord of the Sith, plain and simple. From having been a Krath, and also just my own opinions, I also don't think "Krath Lord," or "Obelisk Lord" suddenly sounds above "Grand Master." Which also takes my mind back to my first point. It's not "Grand Jedi Master," since that sounds horrid, and he is above the other Masters. That could be another inference on not needing the Jedi-bit, or just cutting it down to Master as the rank.

And just a thought. Since all the Orders are voicing on the issue with the Sith, I'd love to hear some input on what the other Orders think of the Lord issue. As Goat said, pretty much anyone would vote to have Lord, but would the other Orders want it? Would another noble-sounding word be more appropriate, or sound better paired up with "Krath/Obelisk"?

I know this is comming in a bit late and all but,

I easily mistake things for other things. And in seeing a rank like 'Sith Lord', I'd probably percieve it as 'Dark Lord of the Sith'.

Perhaps I am an absolute idiot but I think these rank changes would be more confusing than beneficial. I - and probably most of the brotherhood, understand most of the current ranks in the DB and where they stand. To change the ranks would be to send certain people (aka me) into a spiral of confusion.

Also, on your point about killing the 'Jedi' part of a name, I am completely opposed to it. When I think of a 'Dark Jedi', I think of every dark jedi in the brotherhood. And when I think of a 'Dark Master', I think of everyone at or above the rank of 'Dark Jedi Master'. I am a DJK, and I personally think that being called Dark Jedi Konar would sound lame.

- Just my oppinion. Whether it changes anything or not is up to you.

As a long-time Sith at heart, I do not want Sith Lord as a rank.

As has already been said, it is far too powerful and there is already that fictional bias that does make it transcend everything - even GM or whatever. Sith Overlord, at least, keeps the lord, but eliminates the whole omnipotence we might associate with Sith Lord. Sith Warlord = r0x0rz.

Speaking from the standpoint of someone who enjoys studying history...I've no feeling on Sith Lord vs. Sith War/Over-lord; however, a Warlord was already noble/royal - they just happened to be good at warfare.

As for Grand Master vs. Lord, I look at it as the Grand Master of our Order is equivalent to the Grand Master of a Knightly Order - he outranks and oversees ALL beneath him. Should a Royal Prince pledge loyalty to one of those Orders, even if he becomes King, he would be forced to at least bow to the Grand Master to show that he still follows the Order, or would have to leave the Order.

Uhhh, Konar, you looked too far into what I was saying. I never mentioned taking "Jedi" out of every rank. I didn't mentioned DJK at all. I was talking about "Dark Master" versus "Dark Jedi Master." Also, this is something I brought as my own viewpoint, not as part of the name changes. If I wanted to do that, it'd be more than just changing the Sith rank names. I'm speaking solely of the four Equite ranks, those being from Sith Warrior to Sith Overlord. That should be evident in the discussion, since we've been talking about those four almost exclusively, but I apologize that it may not have been.

Secondly, as far as Sith Lord transcending Grand Master, or any other, I don't see it that way. If we're taking the fictional aspect of it, most people would realize that the Dark Lord of the Sith is the supreme authority, and power within the Sith Order. If we're going by the rule of two Sith Lords, source denotes them both as Dark Lords of the Sith. Personally, I don't believe there would be any false beliefs of it superceding everything, considering that the majority of the Club are actually intelligent. It may just be a personal opinion, but I still don't think it's an issue. The bigger issue in my mind is what Jac stated; he's not sure how he feels about having the rank of Lord, because all three Orders may/could want it, and he's not hot on having three ranks named the same.

You know, I've got a lot of feelings on this issue, and it's not likely what you think. In all honesty, if you decide you want no changes, that's your perogative. But I read through posts left, or speak with people via IRC/email, and it amazes me how much credit people do not give themselves. Several people have said, "I don't think I could adjust to new ranks." Or "I don't think they'd sound quite Sith." Maybe it's just me, but I think of myself as intelligent, capable, and dynamic. The only limits on me, are those I put on myself. If I convince myself I can't do something, or shouldn't do something, then I don't. And in the end, if this isn't wanted, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. But what amazes me most, is the seeming lack of ability, or interest, in even entertaining thoughts before they're decided upon.

Personally, and you can hate me for saying this as you will, but I honestly wish you would all at least open your mind to change, and give it some thought, and honestly let yourself weigh it objectively, before deciding. You're not "stupid Star Wars geeks." You're not "stuck with an immovable Club that must obey the whims of the Almighty Lucas." Yes, we're a Star Wars Club, and we have our own corner of the Star Wars galaxy, and adhere to much of it, but if you see nothing unique within this Club, and within the Sith Order... then that amazes me.

I never meant that Sith Lord sounds above Dark Lord of the Sith just that it sounds more on par with a rank like Grand Master than anything else. The idea of a Sith Lord always was that he or she was the badass of the dark side. I was mostly refering to Sith Lord sounding on par with Dark Jedi Master more than anything, because normally you wouldn't think about calling somebody a Sith Lord unless they were a Master.

Basically: In Star Wars talk Lord normally is above (Dark) Jedi Master (or equal to: Jedi Master comparable to Sith Lord).

I actually agree with you, Bloodfyre, on the Dark Master part. When I wrote the Sith History last year I actually tweaked the references to the Elders to Dark Adept, Dark Master and Dark Prophet. Why you all ask? Because I hated the reference to "Dark Jedi" because, technically speaking, none of us are Dark Jedi because none of us were ever Jedi, we're "Dark Siders". Its only a subtle difference. I did that after reading more about Darth Maul's character. He hated being called a Dark Jedi because he despised being likened to a Jedi. He was proud to call himself a Sith. I see much the same in the Dark Brotherhood in a way, for we don't start out as Jedi and turn to the dark side, we start out as Sith and stay Sith. In a lot of ways we're more like Darth Maul than Count Dooku or Darth Vader.

The term Dark Master has been used occassionally though most authors generally stick to Dark Jedi Master. I agree again though that I prefer DJM as an abbreviation, even if I prefer Dark Master as a rank. That said, I actually do like the idea of just having "Master". I've always disliked having "Dark this, Dark that" as if we have to point out to people that we're Dark Jedi (surely the fact someone is in a Master in the Dark Brotherhood is enough of a give away? The prestige is in the Master part, and most dark siders probably didn't even think too much about whether they were using he good or bad side of the Force). I prefer the term "Master Sidious" than "Dark Master Sidious" or "Dark Jedi Master Sidious", the extra words Dark and Jedi just seem superfluous.

In that sense if we changed the ranks to (starting off here at the top of the Equites):

Sith Lord
Adept
Master
Prophet
Grand Master
(A.K.A. got rid of "Dark" and "Jedi")

I actually think that that would 1. sound better and 2. make perfect sense (Sith Master was above Sith Lord [note: Sith Lord was still above (Dark) Jedi Master though curiously enough).

It would kind of give people more freedom to make their character what they wanted too I suppose. If somebody wanted to be known as a Dark Jedi Master, their choice, or if they wanted to be known as a Sith Master, their choice again. It would also get rid of any possible inconsistency issues with Sith Lord as an Equite rank.

The more I think about it, the more I like it. Sith Lord is in many ways "uber status" for anybody wanting to roleplay a Dark Jedi meaning if it was an Equite rank it would be a more realistic goal for people to set to achieve in their time in the Dark Brotherhood. And since all the Elder ranks would be above it, Elders would have justification for saying "we're uber too because we're as good (if not better) than Sith Lords". I've often complained that Elders get too much of the good stuff for themselves and that its unfair that its almost impossible for an ordinary member to ever hope to "master the dark side" but this way around would possibly correct that. Sith Lord (or Krath and Obelisk equivalents) would be "basic mastery" so to speak and anything beyond (the Elders) would be "above and beyond mastery". It would also possibly explain why our Elders are more powerful than most Sith Lords mentioned in canon (you could then argue that Darth Maul was a Sith Lord and that our Masters are stronger than him or something).

Oh, by the way, since I've heard some understandable reasons why Sith Shadow may not actually work as well in practise as it does on paper. When I actually think about how appropriate "Shadow Xanos" or "Shadow Bloodfyre" sounds I can see where it might seem a little silly. Sticking with the trend but not going too far off track I'd actually equally like:

Sith Marauder
Sith Warrior
Sith Warlord
Sith Lord

Or, again, something along those lines. Just throwing another possible combo into the maelstrom.

I have to say that I agree with goats last idea.

I also agree with Goat's last idea- I like the progression from Marauder up to Lord, with the Sith in question becoming more outwardly refined but inwardly more bad-ass as they go. So as a Marauder they're just bloodthirsty killers with no real skills in political maneuvring, then moving up they become more and more powerful and cruel. However, with those ranks there is still room for a Sith Lord to roleplay a bloodthirsty killer- those ranks don't completely typecast people into one mould or another.

I vote aye. ^_^

I vote aye. ^_^




I think it is a great idea, as above mentioned, you could have your character "gain ranks" through backstabbing, sneakyness, political ingenius, or just a plain ole wild cat on the battlefeild. We dont have to be obbie to be tough or Krath to be sneaky to do we? :w00t:

Hey folks,

I'm very much against Sith Lord for the following reasons:

Parity with other Orders. No other Order's title is simply "Order Lord." To me, Primarch, Pontifex and Warlord are all examples of a lord of a particular area, and as such, tend to fit together very well as top ranks. Because of this, I obviously prefer Warlord as the top rank. To me, the Lord of the Brotherhood has, for quite a long time, ruled over the entire Brotherhood. I feel that Lord is a title, not a rank. There is the tradition aspect of it too, which makes this ultimately up to the GM.

So, I still stick to previous suggestions for changes in rank... Of course, I'm not entirely opposed to Warmaster, which means that if we just don't want Overlord anymore, we can stick marauder in at the bottom and bump each up one. But, most people seem to dislike that, too, so I suggested the various shadow-ideas.

In any event, I'm very much against Lord. I understand if you guys want to try to push for it as a rank, but it's not something I would want to see (not that it means that no "Order Lord"s will ever exist.)

I can't say I'd be bothered if the Obelisk and Krath wanted a similar title. Like Bloodfyre said earlier, if people want to see change and all I don't mind either and I'd rather have a really, really cool triplet of ranks for all three Orders when Revenge of the Sith comes out than just hold back in case the others are upset. If the KHP and OHC want to improve their ranks too: go for it.

Admittedly I'd rather see something more original than Krath Lord and Obelisk Lord. Theres lots of other terms just as prestigious, if not more, than Lord, Sith Lord just happens to be the most established rank available.

I've always liked Obelisk Primarch myself. It might just be because I used to see Dark Jedi Primarch as above Dark Jedi Master but I still always felt the term Primarch was really quite a prestigious one. I can imagine that the Krath might want something different if we ended up with Sith Lord, but that wouldn't be hard. Theres a whole range of sorcerous and evil sounding ranks that fit the Krath Order's general persona.

Just out of Curiosity...if Lord is the DB's title, and recognized only for the Grand Master...wouldn't that place Paladin above all other Grand Masters as he is a Duke and transcends a simple Lord?

Well, Paladin is held above the other GM's in title, as he is the only one hailed as "His Grace," if I remember correctly. In light of his being the first recognized Grand Master, I think that's what Trev said, he was granted the title.

Forget about my bull[Expletive Deleted].  It was never intended as "You have to have this," but apparently, that was never clear, and quite frankly, I'm sick of it all.  So what do you get?  Well, apparently we love polls.  So you get one.  And yes, I closed the other topic, because I'd rather have people do it here.  Vote either yes or no.  If you vote yes, please, leave suggestions as to what you would prefer.  If you don't leave a suggestion, you're not really being proactive, and that's just lazy.  So have fun with it, 10 days is the length the poll will run.  At the end of 10 days, if the "Yes" wins out, I'll start polls on DJB.com for how the ranks should go, trying to utilize every possible combination, or I'll just list them all up there, take the four most popular, and then vote on combinations of those.


Sorry but can you explain what you mean by change the ranks

he means changing the names of the ranks

he means changing the names of the ranks


Is there a problem with the current ranks names or something or is there some other reason?

Kraznor there have been like 50 posts on this topic. I suggest you to read then ALL before starting posting, to have a clear idea of what's going on.

Ok, I have to admit my last post was a bit off the tracks, though I am still in favour of not changing Sith Warrior or Warlord because the current names sound awesome.

Sith Warmaster sounds a bit dodgy in my oppinion and is in desperate need of a change, and thus, replacing it by Abraxas would be a move for the better.

The idea of a Sith'Ari is one I support. Mainly because it is historically a part of the Sith heirarchy and thus I think, by intergrating it into the brotherhood, we would be enhancing the Sith as a whole. - Though as a rank?

I can only see the position open to a true follower of the Sith. There can be only one, as the texts state, "...a prophesied saviour of the Sith Order.". Thus, perhaps the best pilot in the Sith would fit the position of Sith'Ari, if it were to be intergrated.

- This may lead you to say, "but we are not owned by George Lucas's empire. We are our own club and we rule ourselves". But I think that, as Sith, we should have a little bit in common with the Sith empire from the movies/stories - which is the reason most of us Sith have chosen that as their order in the first place, to be like their heros (ie Vader, Sadow, Kun, etc.), and thus like Lucas's Sith.

Again, I hold my stance when it comes to Seraph. I am not an angel, nor do I ever wish to become one - Even if it is one of the dark side. Thus, I believe the old rank should stay.

- NOTE: My reasoning is not that I hate change, but simply that some current things are great the way they are and don't need changing. Though, I have to admit that I've looked into your ideas more and see potential in the stance (and I'll call it this because I don't want to see it as a 'rank' persay) of Sith'Ari and the rank, Sith Abraxas.

Well, again, it appears that there was a misunderstanding. Sith'Ari is not a rank. The Sith'Aran (as I modified the name for plurality) are what replaced the Serpenti. They are the honored of the Order, and those whom I have chosen embody what the Sith are, or should be. In the document you read, I also manipulated the hierarchy of the Sith, for the purposes of fiction. Because the Sith'Aran would have a place of recognition, and fit within the hierarchy (as do the Sith High Warrior, and Dark Lord of the Sith), I felt it appropriate to make sure they were noted.

There doesn't need to be anymore discussion on Seraph, because this poll is NOT about "should we have Seraph as a rank?" It is about "should we CHANGE the ranks?" Should the results give me the impression that ranks should be changed, the Order will get to vote on which ranks they choose. If you're voting for the old ranks simply because of Seraph, then you haven't read this thread completely, and that might be a good idea so that you're caught up on the current situation.

If there's anything else that anyone isn't clear on,or just wants to verify, please, feel free to email me, shwbloodfyre@gmail.com, and I'll be glad to answer any questions. Alternatively, leave your questions here, and I'm sure either myself, or someone else can answer them for you.

Ok, I've been watching this post for a while and thought that someone else would say this before now...but nobody has so I think it's time for me to say it. New ranks would be cool and a good face lift for the order, but they won't really solve any of our problems. On the other hand, I think we'd be MUCH better off if we'd take all this energy that we're spending debating if it's a good idea to use Sith Lord as a rank or not and used it to find a new game for us to play.

The problem with the order is that we're a gaming order with a rather outdated game. I think we can pretty much say that LA isn't going to be putting out another space flight sim anytime soon. Normally I'd offer a few suggestions for the high ups to look into to use as an official platform, but I haven't been doing much PC gaming lately (read: Halo 2 and KoTOR stole my soul).

So what do you guys think? Heard of any games that we could use? Don't limit it to star wars related games (cause that's 90% LA stuff and that's a dead end at the moment), lets hear any recent MP or SP/MP flying games that you think were good or could be used for the DB.

Crix, I understand you have been out of the loop for a while but now no order is related to a specific game or platform. Now each order can enjoy any kind of activity, one of the reasons that actually allowed me to rejoin the Sith order and having a hell of fun with "traditional" Obbie platforms like JO and JA.

The problem of the Siths isn't really a platform or the ranks but more the lack of interest many members seems to have toward what we actualy do orderwise.
Something that just crossed my mind is that now RoS, regardles of the order running it, are kind of pointles since we don't have almost no single order houses and as such is impossible to establish "the Best Krath/Sith/Obbie/ House of the DB" for this reasons maybe we should look at the RoS more over a personal level. All member of a spefici order face each other over all supported platforms just like normal RoS but instead of winning points for the House they win points for themself and the winner will be the "Thoughest Sith in the Order". That perhaps will give a new sprint to our folks. We don't need new ranks, we need something cool to do IMO.

In my opinion, we need to reinvent ourselves. I'm not going to put out any major comps yet because a) we just had the GJW, THEn the Krath War, and people are sick of DC comps, b) the IGs are supposed to be soon, and I'm not splitting up peoples' attention between that and something else, and c) because Clans have all said, they want time to do their own stuff.

As far as the ranks, I'd just like to mention again that, it was more than just ranks. My whole intention was to change the ranks, tweak the structure, give fiction purpose to everything, and continue on to help everyone see themselves as something other than pilots. Yes, flying games ARE a part of the DB, and honestly, I'd like them to be important still. Especially Allegiance. However, I continue to get transfer Orders from Intitiates, and even people in Clans, who want to transfer because "I don't own any of the flying games," or "I don't want to be a pilot."

Yes, it's hard to change, it's hard to adjust to new things sometimes, but the fact of the matter is, this is not the DB of 2-3 years ago, nor is this the Sith Order of 2-3 years ago. We cannot afford to continue thinking the same old ways, acting the same old ways, and pretending it doesn't matter if we do. We must adapt, and that has been my intention all along. And consequently, it doesn't matter how much we put out in the form of activity, if no one is doing it, or everyone continues to dwindle away because of past practices, and perpetuated misbeliefs.

Now each order can enjoy any kind of activity


We could always do that. Back in the day when JK was popular I played that just as much as XWA. I also did (and still do) write fiction and perticipate in run ons. None of those are Sith activities and I've always been a Sith.

The problem of the Siths isn't really a platform or the ranks but more the lack of interest many members seems to have toward what we actualy do orderwise


I have a feeling that the lack of interest is because we, the Sith, aren't unique anymore. Even though you could write or play JK/JO/JA, before there was a distinction that the Sith were mainly pilots. If we don't have that distinction anymore and we're all doing the same thing then do we even need multible orders?

Edit: I'm not saying that we should get rid of the orders, just that we need to make a distinction between the purpose of each in more then a fictional sence.

For me...even though each of the Orders can utilize any of the "recognized" platforms...The Sith are the Kings and Kingmakers. To steal and paraphrase a line from V:tM...Let the Obelisk brawl and the Krath retreat to their libraries to give their platitudes, but power, true power, is the domain of the Sith.

Our ultimate goal is power. Sure, we might subjugate, enslave and dominate the lessers amongst us; perhaps we seek to negotiate treaties and alliances; even engage in flattery, but it's all a means to an end.

You see that is all fine, saying we are kings and king makers but in real terms in means nothing, the king is Jac and he is pretty much the king maker as well (since he decides on positions) What we need is a true REAL LIFE not ficional focus for the order before it was piloting, The Krath are still MOSTLY writing based, the Obbies are MOSTLY JO/JA based (I.E They haven't changed) It is only the Sith who have changed (because flying is less popiular now)

But can someone please suggest what the Sith order does in real terms without discussing any fictional element and please base it in the real world, in the real world the Krath are still writing and the obbies are still doing JA/JO, do they do otherthings? yes they do but the primary activity is as stated.

THIS IS NO DIFFERENT FROM BEFORE WHEN WE HAD ORDER PLATFORMS!

Sith have always played JK and JO
Obbies have always played XvT and XWA
Krath have always gamed!

It was just the primary focus for them wasn't on that.

It seems the only change that has really happened is that the Sith has lost it's focus in real terms (all the fiction is just that fiction, it means nothing without a true focus!)

In short

Can people suggest a true workable real life focus for the Sith in the DB, that is different from the Krath or Obbies and is workable (i.e not some nice fictional stuff about us being the rulers of the DB were not , the DC is! or something about us being the miltary leaders of the Brotherhood, because were not that either, clans are ruled by their summits!)

Pred, you're taking Oberst TOO literal. Relax a little, and allow it to sink in. Secondly, we ARE doing that. I've said before, there are a number of projects that I have going on. Can I develop them first, or should I just spill out every little detail, let everyone pick it apart, and decide that, "That sucks, we don't want to do that, do something else." If you'd like, I'd be more than happy to hear suggestions from the order about what our primary activity should be. No, flying simply isn't going to work, unless everyone goes, downloads Allegiance (for free) and gets in on that. Because honestly, the old games don't have the community anymore, some people just can't find them, and yet, everyone continues to say, "We need something." Unless we're willing to go outside of the LA-based crap, we'll have nothing unless we share for the time being.

Coming out soon? Star Wars: Empire at War, or whatever the hell that game is going to be called. Do you want to know what I'd like the Sith to be doing? Well, without trying to give too much away, I'd like that game to be a primary focus, along with games of strategy and warfare, that won't necessarily rely on platforms. Yes, believe it or not, I'm actually planning on other things. Woooooo! And you know, I realize, I probably sound like a sarcastic sonofabeyotch, but really, I do understand what the problems of the Order are. I do understand what kinds of solutions I need to be trying to enact. And most of all, I do understand that, none of you are going to want to change, and I have to try and bring about change to the Order in small ways, to allow you to adapt, and to allow you to come into this age as a living, surviving, and yes, thriving Order.

Now, does that sound ok with everybody, or should I can it, lay it all out, let you decide what sounds good, and then you can develop it too? Personally, I'm more than willing to let the Sith as an Order create, and define ourselves, but that requires active communication, intermingling of everyone for ideas, and unity. One way or the other, work has to get done. It can't just be me putting forth ideas FOR YOU to pick apart, discuss it, debate it, make it greater, and it can't be people saying, "We should do this, or that..." Let's do whatever you like, but again, we're going to have to do it as an Order.

So, please, tell me what you want.

I didn't mean that I didn't want new ranks. New ranks would be very cool and I like the marauder, warrior, shadow, warlord progression. However, I was just saying that I thought it was pretty pointless to spend so much time and energy arguing about including or not including Sith Lord as a rank when we had much larger concerns to deal with. Also, I do realize that we're going to have to move away from LA and star wars based games to keep using flight sims.

Well, a lot of this came about due to people not liking "Seraph" as a rank. Bf opened all of this up to discussion and here's where we stand. Could we maybe be putting this much effort into something else? Definately; however, what would you suggest?

Bf is giving us the chance to air all of this out and proceed based on our suggestions and recommendations, I say use it. God knows, were I SHW, I wouldn't have given anyone the option and just gone ahead with it.