Forwardness

If any of you have been reading the MBs (both these and the old ones) you may have noticed that Dinaari QUA Shadow has been quite 'forward' with some of the problems he see's in the DB right now. You'll also have noticed that this tends to garner 2 responses, anger from some and quality discussion from others.

So here's what I wanted to ask...do you think that people should post problems on the MBs to point a public finger at problems or email people (leaders) privately with any issues?

I'll wait until some other people have posted before I put in my own opinion, so I don't taint the thread right away

Now...discuss.

I'm not really the target audience for this question, so I'll keep it short. I think it very much depends on the issue. If you're criticising someone, or if the comments could be taken as being personal in any way, you most definitely ought to try and resolve that in a private forum to begin with. If that fails, you might be justified in going to an open forum.

With general discussions, again, i would use the QUA/CON route first, simply because it may be an issue already under discussion by the powers that be, or it may be a suggestion that simply hasn't been thought of before. If you get ignored, then would be an appropriate time to take it to the MBs to see whether you're alone in your views...

I agree with Alanna and believe that whether you post it on the MB or not should depend on who or what the situation will affect. For axample, if your post will make a member look like a fool for screwing up, you really shoulden't post it, because your not only destroying that persons reputation, but also any attempt they may make to redeem themselves. On the other hand if you are pointing out problems of an organization of some sort (like the GMRG) then that can be posted, BUT, it is important that you also reccomend ways to fix the problem so that instead of simply criticizing, you are aiding anyone in a command position who needs to deal with the problem. I Believe almost all of what Shadow has posted to the time has been relevent and has had some form of reccomendation or another, making them valid and proper points. If he had lashed out at certain people, that may have change things, but instead he produced valid reasons and solutions.

But thats just my two cents.

I agree a lot with what has already been said. If the matter is personal, it should be brought to attention to the relevant parties in private. There have been several times where I've had personal thoughts/issues about items in Taldryan, and I e-mailed only Kir to discuss them. In those cases, posting my feelings publicly would have only caused problems and upset a lot of people.

In other cases, I think that issues should be discussed with relevant authorities first (QUA/CON/DC). If one feels that one wasn't taken seriously, or that the matter was not fully addressed, then I think the MB is a good tool to show that one may not be the only one thinking the same way. Essentially, the MB is a really good way to give higher-ups proof that something may not be right.

So "forwardness" is appropriate in some cases and not in others.

Ah see, but whenever I originally come up with such a topic it is to incite anger as I have to be pissed off enough to make the post in the first place. It's only after reading a few replies that it ends up becoming more of a "coversation" And yes, sure... there are idiots that just violently attack anything I say, but then there's other people that argue reasonably for and against. *shrugs*

I'd rather see more open forum topics about such things than more privacy and secrecy by just emailing members of the DC. And of course, none of these topics were personal matters. Though I tend to have ready examples for everything I post Personal matters should be settled on a personal level... while some people aren't into that sort of confrontation I prefer it really. Others can contact their leaders to deal with the situations.

I agree with Alanna and believe that whether you post it on the MB or not should depend on who or what the situation will affect. For axample, if your post will make a member look like a fool for screwing up, you really shoulden't post it, because your not only destroying that persons reputation, but also any attempt they may make to redeem themselves. On the other hand if you are pointing out problems of an organization of some sort (like the GMRG) then that can be posted, BUT, it is important that you also reccomend ways to fix the problem so that instead of simply criticizing, you are aiding anyone in a command position who needs to deal with the problem. I Believe almost all of what Shadow has posted to the time has been relevent and has had some form of reccomendation or another, making them valid and proper points. If he had lashed out at certain people, that may have change things, but instead he produced valid reasons and solutions.

         But thats just my two cents.



I pretty much agree with everything you said.

I'd rather see more open forum topics about such things than more privacy and secrecy by just emailing members of the DC. And of course, none of these topics were personal matters. Though I tend to have ready examples for everything I post Personal matters should be settled on a personal level... while some people aren't into that sort of confrontation I prefer it really. Others can contact their leaders to deal with the situations.



Yeah, I would prefer to see more things open on the MB for discussion and debate. Usually you can get more out of it that way then keeping things private and only going by a few folks. I'm referring to such things as talking about how promotions are handled, groups organized, etc. basically anything that effects everyone. This way you see where more people stand. But as Shadow said, personal level stuff should of course be held to emails and such between only those that need to be involved.

I have seen whay happens when youtry to email someone with a problem, actually alot of us have from before the split. There were alot of those type problems there as well...and to be honest it seems that there still are. Anyways, not to beat a dead GA...

I agree that some form of public criticism could be posted...maybe should be posted to keep at least some form of public discussion going. I think that there needs to be alot more of out front stuff shown to the members, seeing what is actually going on instead of the very popular "We are currently working on something" line or the even more popular "We have a plan for..." line.

Secrets have their place, but openly going after someone should not be allowed. If you have a problem with one person, email your immediate boss and go from there. There are some forms of laundry that should be aired and there is some type that should not.

I disagree with Alanna.

Just cause she wouldn't sit my exam for me so it's all her fault if I failed (j/k hun.....I won't blame you too much, honest!)

Yup, there is definately a place for forwardness. But as pretty much everyone's said, there's a balance. I think it's pretty much all been said, so just adding my vote to the 'sort of sat on the fence' group

I'm definately being pushed off the fence more and more, so definately be prepared for that people. It can only lead to goodness... but then, that is from my point of view.

*EDIT* Forgive the goat like length, but you should read it, it is actually quite good... and to the point, goat always failed at that.

I'm gunna add my own two cents on here, and there'll actually be two cents, one from the Yacks you all knew and loved back in my shyte-kicking days of tally, and then the cent of Yacks having been reformed somewhat and having to deal with the after-effects of shad's forwardness >:)

First of all, the old Yacks: Being forward is the only way to go. Honestly, half of the time people ignore everything you say, and the only way to get their attention is to make their blood boil so bad that their brains actually kick in from an advanced state of atrophy, and start formulating opinions and ideas based upon the ludicrous bullshyte you've thrown at them in an attempt to do just that.

Wiser Yacks: Being forward is the only way to go, but you need to be reasonable about it. For example I know that some members on the DC are more than willing to listen to problems and suggestions, and while I do not have all the time in the world, I am one of them (read: open invitation to email me and ask for me to be your point man on certain issues). I already did this with the GMRG shyte that Shad started on the old MBs, and basically said "people have good points, go to this thread, read what the people think, and figure it out once and for all that our members figured out the GMRG was dead long before we did" and it worked, after a fashion. The GMRG has been disbanded and is to be replaced with a new system, that I think may work well... after all it was based upon an idea I hadn't come up with yet, and my ideas always rock, but no you don't get any hints.
Next, to comment on the bit about " think that there needs to be alot more of out front stuff shown to the members, seeing what is actually going on instead of the very popular "We are currently working on something" line or the even more popular "We have a plan for..." line. " from Blade... cudo's, you've hit the problem we all think, except you haven't bothered to think of the reasons why. Despite obvious assumptions otherwise, the leaders of this club are not stupid, if we start saying exactly what we're doing, people are gunna come up with their own half assed ways of solving it, not bothering to go through the details we do, and figure it should be out in a hundredth of the time it should be, and it'll end up being a hundredth the quality as well.
You do get what you pay for.

The next thing I caution all you would be hell raisers out there (Shad is an old enough hand he knows this), there is such a thing as pushing too far. I can think of one member who has pushed for so long and so hard, that while their opinion is still respected, their arguments are mostly passed off as the tantrum of the day anymore. To be a good member of this Brotherhood you HAVE to question your leaders and you HAVE to push them to be worthy of commanding you, that IS your duty. But give your leaders the benefit of the doubt, and don't always be a douche to them, or they will start ignoring you. Reason is met with reason, idiocy with idiocy, anger with anger.

Find the balance, find the ways to get your points across without becoming a crass loudmouth noone pays heed to, and give your commanders the respect to have a chance before you write them off as worthless.

I disagree with Alanna.

Just cause she wouldn't sit my exam for me so it's all her fault if I failed (j/k hun.....I won't blame you too much, honest!)

Yup, there is definately a place for forwardness. But as pretty much everyone's said, there's a balance. I think it's pretty much all been said, so just adding my vote to the 'sort of sat on the fence' group



... so you actually agree with me?

(And I hope your exam went well - I've got my PhD funding )

Maybe.......just this once mind.

Seeing as you're all rich, and so obviously need to come visit and take me out for dinner otherwise that money will just go to waste.......

You decided on a subject for your PhD then?

You know, I should prolly phone you to ask you all these things rather than posting it on the boards....

On a slightly more DB oriented topic, I like the new Yacks. He hasn't ignored me yet for bouncing too much Or maybe I'm just not bouncing enough?


Right, enough rambling. Time to go do some work. Any Tally members reading this - go away and enter the RoS instead!

I should definitely visit you, but you're always so busy when I try and arrange a weekend! And yes, I have a PhD topic - we should chat on the phone

Bouncing is goooood. Entering the RoS is also gooooood!

Great post Yacks, dispite the length it was all worthwhile. Now someone c/p that to Goat and tell him THAT is how to write a long post.

I guess I should throw my opinion into the fray, since I started this thread. I'm 50/50 on being foward. I know that often times it is the best way of bringing the necessary attention to a subject...but there has to be restraint. Often times seemingly good topics turn into bitchfests when people branch out and go in their own directions.

So as a note to everyone...leave most of the hell raising to Shadow, he's good at it. If you have a problem with ANYTHING or ANYONE, remember you should come to me first and tell me about it. I'm a very reasonable guy and I protect my members and respect their opinions, so remember to talk to me.

Since I'm GM, I'll throw in my million dollar answer. (summary at the bottom)

First -- I have a problem with topics on the message board, only because I don't see them. I don't care that things are talked about publicly. I encourage it. I just hate finding out after the fact "oh Jac, people are bitching on hte MB." The fact is, I don't have time to scour the spam to find the relevant posts and replies. I look through the list of new posts and see if anything catches my eye. Many times, the relevant posts don't. For instance, Kir, I would never have looked in this thread had Yacko not pointed it out to me. If people add "bitching:" or "for the DC" or "important question:" to the titles, I am much more likely to see it and respond/act. Further, 9 times out of 10, the problem is already taken care of or being taken care of. Case in point: GMRG. Sure, we could announce on the new site what we are doing, but as Yacko said, that makes a whole new realm of headaches. I suppose the best thing for me to do would be to say "yes I know their is a problem and we're looking at it." but even then, that makes people demand a fast solution, which there isn't always one.

Email, on the other hand always catches my attention. There is rarely ever a time I miss reponding to an email. Sometimes I may respond late, but I get it eventually.

In my world, the best thing someone can do is start a thread on the MB, and then email me and say "hey Jac! Watch this important thread." Just like Yax did today. Saves time and headaches.

As for bitching in general, i agree with what Yacko has said about things. Getting my blood boiling always works, but sometimes not in the way you'd like. The idea is to be constructive. I cannot even stress that enough. Saying "JAC THERE'S A PROBLEM! DO SOMETHING!" doesn't do anything but point out the obvious. Suggesting a solution, or starting a discussion to come up with a solution is great. Even then, once a solution is made, don't make it my responsibility to come up with a nice proposal and send it to the DC. Do it yourself and I'm sure to take notice of the effort. I like proposals. A lot. A word document with your ideas in it is worth a ton to me.

So that's what I got. To sum up:

1. MBs are great, but please alert me when there is a topic I need to keep an eye on
2. Email is awesome
3. Be proactive and constructive in ALL stages of the process, including the complaint, brainstorming, solution, and proposal
4. Bitching is fine. It helps get [Expletive Deleted] done. Just remember that the DC IS working. We don't just sit on our asses.

Jac

I suppose the best thing for me to do would be to say "yes I know their is a problem and we're looking at it." but even then, that makes people demand a fast solution, which there isn't always one.



It would be even better if you could say "yes I know there is a problem...." >:)

heheh - if you think that last sentence was a criticism of Jac's spelling, you are most definitely mistaken. Read it again.... what I actually said was: Good post. Made a lot of sense. Yay Jac!

I just want to say that I find any post Shadow has made and intentionally find a way to disagree with it. So whatever Shadow said is wrong.

Just kidding.

Most all of what I'd say has already been said, so I won't bother. In addition to email and message boards, feel free to ask me anything on IRC. I'm always happy to explain situations or whatever if asked. I tend to be more receptive to people coming to me (or another member of the DC) first, though I have no problem with you guys expressing your opinions wherever however you want, provided it's a reasonable issue and all that jazz.

You know, seeing as how you're all my bitches anyway, I'm giving my opinion. Personally, I have no problem with criticism on the forums, for everyone to see, and everyone to take part in, as long as two things happen:

1) I get a chance to respond.
2) People treat me with the same respect I treat them with.

Other than that, hey, voice your opinions outloud. This isn't a dictatorship, this isn't an organization with secret police, and people who will beat you in the middle of the night. You have a right to your opinion, and that's probably the best weapoin you can use in fighting crap.

If you are going to contact Mav I would email him, DON'T talk to him on IRC. He has this nasty habit of taking 30 minute breaks in the middle of conversations

And thank you everyone for the input, I hope everyone who reads this thread can't get a better sense of how to flesh out any problems they see.

Im all for forwardness....and now, since i'd like to have a post as long as Yacks and Jac and Goat so I'll just fill the rest with senseless jibberish.........

afjlkjsadlfk jsalfkja ljf lsajdf lksajdf lksadjf

ldkafjaslkfjsalkjf al
alkjf lajflka j



laksdfjslakfjalskjfalskdj


sdaklfjaslkfjaslkfj


Ok, i got bored, maybe not as long, but definately a "statement" about what I think.

haha

Yacks...shouldn't you just say "look at Oberst"? I mean, I don't think anyone is so thick to not know whom you were referring to.

Next, to comment on the bit about " think that there needs to be alot more of out front stuff shown to the members, seeing what is actually going on instead of the very popular "We are currently working on something" line or the even more popular "We have a plan for..." line. " from Blade... cudo's, you've hit the problem we all think, except you haven't bothered to think of the reasons why. 



I still think that the DC should give some sort of details about things that are relevent to the general membership. How many times have you heard those lines and never saw anything get done. It used to be a larger problem when we were part of the EH as it was and still is used often. When someone announces a huge project, gets peoples hopes up then you never hear anything else the line used is usually "We are workihg on it" when asked.

Despite obvious assumptions otherwise, the leaders of this club are not stupid, if we start saying exactly what we're doing, people are gunna come up with their own half assed ways of solving it, not bothering to go through the details we do, and figure it should be out in a hundredth of the time it should be, and it'll end up being a hundredth the quality as well.
You do get what you pay for.

I have seen people come up with their own halfassed ideas on the MBs no matter what comes out of the DC. Look here, the brand new boards and you'll see its starting already... O-) or rather maybe ... >:)


This is not disrespectful just my own opinion