The Handling of Promotions

So anytime I'm more than really bored and got nothing to do I browse through the different clan's rosters checking out dossiers, etc, etc to see how other clans are fairing/doing stuff. And one thing I've seen a lot of lately is the gross handling of promotion requests. People getting promoted twice in the same month for sentence long reasons - and not APP to DJK, these were high end promotions. That seem fair to any of the rest of you? A lot of people work their asses of to get promoted and then someone randomly gets 2-3 promotions for no reason in a row. Makes me feel like the rank is worth it.

It's especially noticeable in CEK - I guess since they were the "down and out" clan that anything done by it's member seems miraculous? Little unfair to the rest of us in my opinion. The funniest part is that the recc's are less than most people write for APP through to DJK. Another funny part is this is mostly a recent thing. I'll let someone else try to fill in the blanks with that [Expletive Deleted].

But hey, it's not like anything can/will be done. Not going to start demoting people now that they have the rank. I just hope someone will look into these promotions more. This is just another small thing on the list of thing's that make the DB like the EH. Glad I worked my ass off for 11 months to get Primarch when someone got it in 3 for "service to their clan" Give it up for bull[Expletive Deleted].

This is just another small thing on the list of thing's that make the DB like the EH. Glad I worked my ass off for 11 months to get Primarch when someone got it in 3 for "service to their clan" Give it up for bull[Expletive Deleted].



definatly gay.

Though normally I try to stay away from these bitch-fests, I'm in total agreeance with Shadow. Upper-Rank promotions are something that should be worked hard for and not just handed out like candy. If you want to hand something out like candy, there's a wide variety of medals that the Brotherhood offers that can suppliment. What's sad about all of this is, alot of people work so hard, and their leaders put in thoughtful requests to get them promoted and they see denial more so often then they should. Meanwhile a friend of a friend of a friend is gonna get the promo because his buddy has the power. Just my 2 cents, and when I'm not so tired I'll come and complain some more.

I have to agree with Shadow, though I think this isn't something that should be posted on the message board, but be handled by the MAA office.

I do think that before the split it was too hard to let someone promote or give somebody an award, but now you can get an award for almost nothing. I know I've had awards for almost no work and I also think those are insane, so I'm not gonna say that everybody is getting awards around here and I'm not.

I think we're throwing around with medals and awards a little bit too fast.

Well everyone keeps saying to put these topics on MBs as emails are too private and comments on the news system are evil or something - this was the next best thing.

I have to agree, I often grow rather disheartened when I read a few of the medal or promotion recommendations that somehow pass through the net.

To be perfectly honest I disagree with any promotion Dark Jedi Knight and above not having a recommendation of at least a paragraph or two. The whole idea is to convince the Master-At-Arms why the person should be promoted. I never agree with the argument that the Consul in question knows and so should be wholely trusted, for while that might well be the case, its the job of the Master-At-Arms to ensure consistency across the club.

I don't know exactly, but I gather from your post, Shadow, that somebody got Obelisk Primarch in 3 months? If so that's absurd.

Obelisk Primarch is not a rank for service to one's Clan, it is a rank for service to one's entire Order. If your name isn't known throughout the whole Obelisk then you don't deserve Obelisk Primarch. That's how I look at it at least. I might be a little more severe in this belief than some people, for I consider any rank above Dark Jedi Knight to require something above ordinary service, though OPM especially. There are Dark Council members who are not Krath Pontifex, Sith Overlord or Obelisk Primarch, and they do a lot more than just have fun helping a Clan out, which is where I set the precident for what one needs to achieve to earn the fourth tier Equite rank.

I have often considered that ranks above Dark Jedi Knight should require additional support from the relevant Order Leader. Meaning that before a recommendation goes before the Master-At-Arms it should need the Order Leader to have been contacted and added their words in the recommendation. Ideally it would be good if it needed dual-approval through the website where both the Master-At-Arms and the Order Leader needed to tick the 'promote 'box or however it works, though that would probably require a substantial amount of new coding from the Seneschal team.

Me and you agreeing, strange thing considering the last week of posts, Goat

But yes, including Order leaders in DJK+ promos, or even higher members of the DC who know or have looked into or have kept tabs on the person in question. Maybe not even DJK but anything past that where you actually recieve a "Order" Rank, ie: Obelisk Templar, Sith Warrior, etc.

I know that I'm relatively knew here and don't understand the history of a lot of the problems, but doesn't this land squarely on the shoulder of the MAA and his staff? If people are getting promoted too fast doesn't that mean that we aren't taking a careful look at promotion requests? As someone who is hoping to get promoted to DJK sometime in the future I want that to mean something. And I really want my promotions to mean something the higher I get.

I'm not looking to blame anyone on this subject, but it seems that we should have some more oversight to make sure our ranks and awards have the respect that they should.

Even though it does sound like a good idea having a DC member or an Order leader co-recomend someone for a promotion we should ask about its feasibility. Is it possible for every person who wants to achieve a higher rank to have some contact with their Order leaders (enough to get a reccomendation), probably not. This may sound like a bad idea but has anyone ever thought about making a promotions guideline for the higher ranks, like we do for the ones below DJK, or like for medals. Maybe if leaders understand the role of promotions a little more clearly they wouldn't be so hasty to give them out.

So glad to see complaints have already entered the boards.

Now to clear things up. There are promotion guilde lines. Everyone must follow them, regardless of what clan. If you want to push your members beyond those guidelines, like Taldryan, it is up to the QUA/AED and clan summit. I would like to see an upper rank that got promoted twice in one week Shadow, cause if I remember right. The only two high ranking members that have been promoted within the past few weeks were myself to Warmaster, Talon to Sith Warlord and Esca to Krath Preist. And each of those promotion required a decently writen promotion request which can be verified by both the DGM and MAA.

Just because promotions are more rapid in our clan, doesnt mean we just hand them out. Members have to work just as hard as anyone else to get their promotions. Its all in the ammount of time they do it. Yes, I will admit that are lower level promotions are very fast. Usually apprentices reach the rank of acolyte within a week or two. That is because the SA layed low laying guide lines for the promotions, and thats what we go by.

So I do ask, are we wrong or is the DC who set those guide lines wrong Shadow?

Hey look don't be so hard on them. After all, I've been working my ass of since i've got here and havn't recieved any medals, awards or rank. Though I wouldn't complain if I did.

Shadow, next time you have a complain why don't you bring it with Mav and Jac (possibly CCing those involved) ? That may actually do something instead of just spread unnecessary hatred betwen the Clans.
Now from what I was able to find checking our roster, It's most likely you are refering to Vally promotion and well, it seems that the MAA made a mistake approving his second promotion that close to his precedent one.
We all do mistakes folks, get a live.

Well, everyone has placed their opinion and we still have nothing that we have gained from it now do we? Other than a spammed thread that shows newer members to take their problems to everyone. I also do acknowledge that Shadow has a valid point. Vally was promoted twice in a high rank, however before the accusations were made, no one botherd to look at the appointment date of the Ziost Summit. Vally was promoted before both myself and Talon was appointed. But like I said, we have proven our points and complained enough. Lets use these forums to have fun. Cause thats what this club was built for, good times and lots of rapage in MP.

As Khan suggested, the best way to get the attention of the DC is to email us. There have been a couple oversights in the MAA's Office, but I have noticed them and Jac and I have talked to Cofo about these issues. I don't agree that no-one in CEK does work(and that the promotion reccomendations do not accurately reflect what work was done), however, the Clan is aware that a lot of the work they do is internal and often unrecognized by other Clans. I've spoken to the leaders there about this issue, and they are planning to address it.

However, I will grant that each Clan sometimes has different definitions of what deserves what rank. Because of this, and a variety of other factors, the MAA Office is working on re-involving Order Leaders in the promotion process. In any event, I know you guys are concerned with equality across Clans. For the vast majority of promotions, the MAA's Office does a great job at denying poorly made transfers. This is something that they are still working to improve on and shouldn't be a problem shortly.

I think that more careful considerations for promotions and awards are warranted. I see this a great deal with websites and graphics. Honestly, creating a website or a graphic does not earn a Steel Cross or higher - unless it's several high-quality graphics or a Clan/Order website, and even then one driven by a higher technology than HTML. Yes, I think graphics and websites are work intensive (I create both) but they are only one item, and the effort is comparable to the effort someone puts in to write a story, or to play a game; and I know those gamers and writers are rarely showered frequently with high-level awards.

One thing I believe is that not everything a person does deserves a reward. Rewarding everything (or almost everything), or even a menial task only devalues the award or rank and it creates unreal expectations for the person. Personally, I worked very hard over a year and more to get my DJM rank when I was CHAN, and I did some intensive work for Jac and Firefox to earn it back. While I cannot confirm what Shadow claims (not saying he's lying, of course), I do agree that promotions and awards should be more carefully monitored. That's why I created Medal Guidelines when I was CHAN.

I would favour OLs being involved in promotion reccs (although I may be biased )

Without being arrogant about it, I wouldn't want to see a Krath being promoted to KE unless I've heard of them, for the simple reason that I hear about (almost) everyone who gets involved with Krath events on a DB level. And if someone isn't doing that, then they shouldn't really be getting these high level promotions.

I do acknowledge the 'almost' in that sentence - there are always exceptions, such as those people who have a strong clan prescence, but not DB wide prescence.... but I would expect that to be clear in the promo recc. Additionally, some Krath now may prefer to get involved with XVT/JK as opposed to writing, so maybe the system should just require *an* OL, although the default would be your own OL.

So there you have it, a few words from our lovely KHP.


This problem usually occurs in a few of the different Clans and Houses (I'm going to try not to point fingers) under certain summits. Some summits believe that the work is comparative based on what everyone else in that Clan is doing while others have set ideas and goals.

While I don't really have that many ideas right now I thought we might want to clarify that.

With all this discussion of Order Leaders, since there are only three, that we should here their opinions. With the possible exception of Korras who was a Krath before his new leadership role, our OLs have a pretty good knowledge of what goes on with their members and have good enough judgement to decide whether the person deserves the promotion.

(And we could have somebody babysit the High Commander until he knows who's who )

With the possible exception of Korras who was a Krath before his new leadership role,



*Cough* All the current OLs used to be Krath *cough*

Heh, you have a point there.

But I'm saying that Korras is just recently Krath after little contact with the Obelisk.

Here's a question: why don't we want to allow Order Leaders to have a say in all Equite level promotions? It's their Order after all.

It wouldn't be possible for the person to always be able to contact the Order Leader? Why not? A promotion isn't something you do on the spur of the moment, promotions above Dark Jedi Knight should have a lot of consideration go into them. It doesn't take thirty seconds to draft out a quick e-mail to the respective Order Leader to see if they feel the given individual has done enough or not.

Especially in the case of ranks above Archpriest, Prelate and Warmaster. Those ranks are, listen closely, the starting ranks for a Consul. A Consul is, by nature of office, only able to promote up to the same rank. A Consul should not even be making recommendations for ranks higher than that without having first directly consulted a member of the Dark Council, the logical choice being the respective Order Leader. When I was a Consul any promotion I wrote for an Equite-class rank I sought a dual-recommendation with the Order Leader. Likewise when I was Sith High Warrior I was less than satisfied if people tried to sneak through high level promotions within the Sith Order without first consulting me if I thought the individual had done a service to the Order as a whole.

Promotion guidelines? I'm afraid those don't work out, as they don't take account of leadership level activity. They're good for Journeymen ranks where you only need to say "has taken part in so many competitions" but when somebody is a Consul you can't exactly assess their abilties by ticking off a few boxes. It's a more subtle art than that.

Now, on the specific issue at hand, I will say I did do a little bit of research and must say what I found does generate a rather substantial degree of concern. Promotions to Obelisk Primarch after three months and Obelisk Exarch after three weeks are... deeply troubling. I have never seen third and fourth tier Equite ranks handed out that quickly before. Regardless of what a person may have done in such a brief span of time, rank is as much an indicator of experience, something that only comes with long-term service as it is actual contribution. We have medals for a reason, you know? Generally I think it inappropriate to see someone promoted to a fourth tier Equite rank before recieving their Sapphire Blade. The Sapphire Blade is a substantial stepping stone and a further way of providing intermediate stages to separate promotion. One should never recieve promotion, after promotion, after promotion, with no medals in between, that shows that something is going seriously wrong.

Be sure to heed carefully to what I have said. Yes, a person may deserve award, but a promotion is not always suitable, for rank is for more than contribution and activity, rank is dually reflective of the the period over which you have served and the experience you have. Take a look at the Dark Council, how many people do you see getting promoted to Dark Jedi Master after only a few months? None. They nearly always get rewarded with something such as an Emerald Dagger long before recieving a promotion to Dark Jedi Master. Likewise, we see people getting rewarded with their Diamond Sword long before we would even dream of promoting them to the distinguished height of Dark Side Prophet.

That seems to have been lost down the lower levels of the chain. I believe this is probably where the problem originates for while members may well be doing enough to deserve reward the rewards themselves are not being administered in an appropriate fashion. If a Jedi Hunter has been exceptionally active, you reward them with their first Steel Cross, or maybe a Grand Cross, you don't promote them to Dark Jedi Knight after only a month, it belittles the meaning of rank. Rank is a public sign of one's standing in this club, your standing is very reflective on the length of service you have put into the club. There may well be exceptions, but when the exceptions always appear to originate from one or two particular Houses, Clans, Battleteams, or whatever the unit in question at the time of this debate (and this debate seems to pop up rather commonly) may happen to be, then it shows that it is more than likely that unit that happens to be doing something different.

I don't mean to point fingers, but presently, I do agree that Clan Exar Kun has been the centre of a few scenarios that do herald looking at. Has it always been Clan Exar Kun? No, I remember in my early days that I used to consider Clan Taldryan to be letting the rewards flow a little more freely than I would have deemed proper. I'm singling out Clan Taldryan here to make the point that these things come and go through the passage of time.

I will say however, that given that Clan Taldryan is presently the First Clan of the Brotherhood, perhaps we should be a little more willing to listen to their leaders? They are obviously doing something right. Maybe, rather than all jumping up and attacking Shadow, we should acknowledge that perhaps he has a point? Perhaps handing promotions out too quickly is deconstructive?

It's hardly a secret that Clan Taldryan is significantly more well off than any other Clan at present, perhaps rather than the rest of us getting defensive, and trying to defend our ways, we should actually look at the way Clan Taldryan works and follow its lead? Clan Exar Kun is not as active as Clan Taldryan, I'm afraid you can't go and deny that. Clan Naga Sadow isn't either, nor am I going to go an deny it. Hiding from the truth achieves nothing. If Clan Taldryan is making people have to work to earn their promotions, and is currently the most active Clan, maybe that is a lesson to the rest of us?

Yes, perhaps the people who Shadow has mentioned did deserve their promotions, but was it right to promote them? Is it always right to promote someone right away? Is it always right to give a baby a sweet just because it behaves? If you do that then the baby will start to always expect to be given a treat every time. The same applies here. It isn't always appropriate for people to get a promotion the day they have earned it, that is partially why we have medals to reward their activity, and partially why it is often better they wait for it. Not only is the promotion more meaningful for them, but there is also a greater sense of having finally earned it.

Did I want to recieve an Emerald Dagger or Dark Jedi Master when I left office? Its more than obvious that I would have preferred the promotion, but would it have been right to promote me to Dark Jedi Master? The answer is in what I have said. To have promoted me six months ago would have achieved little. By comparison when I do finally do enough to earn that rank it will mean a lot more and I will feel a lot more as though I have earned it than giving it to me just because I had done enough to warrant some form of reward. I might have deserved an award, but a promotion wasn't suitable. There is also far less talk of medals than there is rank, the idea of the Emerald Dagger being "devalued" is one far less talked about than the idea of Dark Jedi Master being "devalued". There are many reasons why rank is not always as appropriate as medal.

That brings me back to what I started in saying that any promotion beyond Dark Jedi Knight is not something one should do on the spur of the moment. It requires thought. I have never promoted someone even to Dark Jedi Knight without thinking about it for a week before making the recommendation. If the thought crosses my mind "I think that is soon going to want to be promoted" then I act on that thought, soon, not now, soon. I think about it and spend time deliberating over whether to promote or to award a medal. I browse through their dossier, looking at the last promotion date, looking at the last promotion date before that, looking at their medals, when they last recieved a medal. A promotion should not be taken lightly.

The promotion in question just happened to slip through the net, and we all make mistakes? That much is true, but the danger we fail to reason, is it actually requires a mistake on two parts. Firstly it requires the Master-At-Arms not to evaluate the recommendation quite as well as we might hope, secondly it requires the person making the promotion recommendation to make it. Looking toward what Shadow has highlighted I strongly question how one can even consider making a promotion recommendation to Obelisk Exarch only three weeks after promotion to Obelisk Prelate. I recall spending a good deal of months myself between Sith Battlemaster and Sith Battlelord, as do I recall everyone I have ever seen spending a number of months between second and third tier Equite ranks also. The fault may lay in the hands of the Master-At-Arms but we can't ignore the fact that it is not his fault if we should not be making such a recommendation in the first place.

The person in question undoubtedly deserved reward, I have said that a number of times through this post to make the point more than clear, but three weeks after one promotion another promotion is not appropriate reward. A medal would be appropriate. A Grand Cross perhaps.

I think the problem rests in that we need to ensure our leaders are fully educated in their authorities. It is not the sole job of the Master-At-Arms to evaluate medal and promotion recommendations, half the task is that of the person making the recommendation. The idea is not to see if we can "sneak it past the Master-At-Arms", that attitude is dangerously immature. I always take great care before I even think about writing a recommendation, I do not attempt to just "see if the Master-At-Arms will approve it". If I am unsure of the promotion, then I approach the respective Order Leader for backing, or I reconsider a promotion and award a medal.

I will stress that this is no direct attack on any individual, only the institution they represent. If a Clan appoints a fresh member as a leader then we cannot magically expect that member to necessarily have full knowledge of our standards and when to promote and when to award. However, it is our job to help shape them to the greater vision of the Dark Brotherhood. Like I said earlier, and perhaps most important, before jumping up defensively, perhaps we should listen to what Shadow has said, he is in the most active Clan of the Dark Brotherhood presently, and he does run our most active Obelisk House. It is often said that if one has nothing to hide then one has nothing to fear, if therefore the promotions Shadow has question are legitimate, is there any harm in him asking for more details why these people may or may not have deserved their promotions by the standards in Clan Taldryan?

If he has a concern, I say let him voice it, if there truly is no problem, then say so, and all will be well and good. If however there is a problem then it allows us to help the people concerned. The idea here is not to demote the people whose ranks might give rise to questioning, that is silly, and I agree equally inappropriate for once one is promoted, even if by mistake, it is not their fault, nor should they be punished as such. However, if there was a mistake made, by raising the question, it allows us to better prevent it occuring in the future. It also allows us to better educate all the leaders throughout the Dark Brotherhood of the different standards run through different Clans and to therefore better equalise and promote fairness throughout the ranks.

Like I said, again, Clan Taldryan must be doing something right, they wouldn't be the First Clan if they weren't. Maybe rather than feel distressed that they are critising the rest of us, maybe we should learn from their example, listen to their words, and try to change our ways to become more like them?

Critism is not a bad thing, it's the first step to improvement.

I think Mav's Avatar looks like a girl.

Since I didn't read your whole post because it's just a pain for my eyes, I'll comment here and there.
What Alanna said is basicaly the only true thing, each Clan and House and summit has his own prospective on "activity" and "reward" and there can't possibly be One startard for every clan and for that reason it's unfarseeable to take Tal as a model. Is it the most active clan of the db ? Yeah it has always been but that doesn't mean we have really to take it as a model. Tal or any other clan for the matter. The whole point here is another one, the MAA has made a mistake (happens) and everyone is ready for one reason or another to throw useles blame on him. All the other discussion are just rethorical excuses you use to justify your points. Grow up.
And one last thing to Goar, you know you can say the same thing in less lines right ?

I have been impressed with everything I've seen so far in this topic.

This is an issue that has bothered me for a long time - partly from my own experience. I've discussed it with Bloodfyre many times and I am particularly glad to see Mav's response.

As Xanos has said, the OLs need to be involved. However, this won't happen unless there are some major reforms in the MAA's office.

I will not hide my opinion of the MAA's office in the past. In the past, they were horribly slow, unwieldy and dare I say - generally incompetent. Yes yes I know I am perhaps too harsh. Happily though, this is no longer the case. I must commend the MAA and his office on speeding up his work and getting things done. Good job you guys. I wish you were perhaps even faster, but I don't see major problems. Now you have a new challenge to address!

I was promoted to Obelisk Battlemaster way back in the day when I was ProConsul of Aquillas. This was an automatic promotion because back then, the minimum ranks were automatically given to whoever got the position. Did I deserve that promotion? Probably not. It was a minimum rank issue. Fortunately, we no longer have those issues. I eventually believe I earned that rank through the work I did for my Clan. I then left the DB

Just recently I was promoted to Sith Warlord. After a long time away from the DB, I returned maybe a year or a year and a half ago and started working again. It has taken me a long time to earn a promotion: Maybe a year. Yes I probably would have gotten it sooner if I had worked even harder and hadn't left for a short time but we all seem to experience those patches in life. We all have real lives and things to do.

So it took me about a year to earn a promotion to Warlord. And was this based on my contributions to my Clan? In part, yes but also in contributions to my Order. Bloodfyre knows this and that is why both he and Trev decided I deserved promotion. Now, I don't think necessarily everyone in the Sith Order has heard of me but I think the work I have done behind the scenes for both the DB as a whole and the Order has been helpful.

So is the system working? No. Does it work sometimes? Yes. I sincerely hope the time it takes me to get promoted again is less than the last time. But I think that is a valid wish since it took me more than 2 years to get promoted.

So to the MAA's office I say this: perhaps it is time for a new system of approving medals and promotions. If I were the MAA, I would not accept a mere letter telling me of the great things that someone has done - I would demand proof and I would pass such high level promotions around. Even a promotion to DJK should be a very important event and well scrutinized!

But I suppose I have written to much.

If it's shorter than Goat's post, it can't be too much.


Maybe you can't necessarily use one Clan, or House, or Battleteam as an absolute guideline, but you CAN model your own ideas with it. True it would be impossible to foster the exact same atmosphere and rules and general promotion guidelines, say in Tarentum and Exar Kun, or Naga Sadow and Taldryan.

I'll admit that a Clan is made up of people, so you can't have things exactly the same, but haven't you ever looked up to someone? Then haven't you imitated them to some extent? This is what some of the Clans could and maybe should do; find a successful Clan, or combine the good aspects of each Clan and try to incorporate it into the Clan you're a part of.

We have medals that are awarded for specific things, and once you get too high on the list of medals you need to have someone on the DC recc them. OE, OPM, OP, etc are basically like the SB and up.

I don't really care how active a person is in their clan, we all should be active in our clans but, like medals, the higher ranks should be rewarded either for amazingly long service to a clan (ie: not a few months) or helping further the Order or the DB in some way.

Dest, even if everyone in CEK was uber active, a few months is not enough time between promotions to the rank below DA. Will that person get DA in the next few months for service to his clan too? As for promotions to DJK, that's not really something I care about one way or another. It's the order ranks that are more important and should mean the most.

As a matter of fact we are reviewing the way things are handled, recommendation and all, and I proposed a new way for promotion for DJK+ to involve the OL in the process; we are discussing it with Jac and Mav and soon there will be an announcment one way or another =P
Also, the MAA Office has another big project on hold, that will hopefuly clear some shadowy aspects and help everybody. The only problem is we have no choice but to wait for rebirth to start, so wait a bit longer and things will be all settled. For now, both me and CoFo are working our hardest to keep things in line and I'm sure everyone, as Kaek said, noticed the improvment. GIVE US A BREAK !!! =P

No breaks for anyone! Slave harder. But seriously, does that little admission ruin your upcoming plans? It's a good idea to give us assholes that nice little "we're doing this so don't yell at us... yet" thing

I think you all need to shut up and start talking about yo-yos. Especially Goat. Goat needs to take up knitting. And I think we should make up a rule on posts. 50 words or less, and no posting after yourself. Heh.

I think Mav's Avatar looks like a girl.



Yours looks like Astatine's.

I actually made my post irritatingly long for a specific reason: that's how long a good promotion recommendation should be.

When I wrote my recommendation that Trev be promoted to Dark Jedi Master it was too solid pages long, when I wrote my recommedation to promote Malik to Sith Overlord it was at least a page long. I didn't just justify it on a few lines.

However, since you asked, I'll do a quick summary:

1. Order Leaders should have a say in Equite+ promotions, just like the Dark Council does in DA+

2. OP to OE in 3 weeks and OE to OPM in 3 weeks is not conforming with running standards, yes every Clan is going to be different, but not that much, and the Equite ranks are ORDER LEVEL RANKS not CLAN LEVEL RANKS. I stress that because up to DJK is very much Clan specific, Equite-class require Order level contribution. I don't agree with KPN/OPM/SO before a person has earned a Sapphire Blade, its a simple as that. Rank is a symbol of status and experience, medals are a symbol of contributions. If you've done something extra special, have a cookie, aka. a medal. Rank still needs time to fully mature and be earned.

3. We have medals for a reason. If someone has done something brilliant soon after a promotion, you give them a medal! Its wrong to give someone a promotion, then a promotion, then a promotion, and never give them a medal. I see lots of DJKs with no medals- thats wrong. If they've done enough to earn a bunch of Crescents they should at least be awarded a Dark Cross for being active. It spaces out the promotions a bit more, gives them more awards in the long run, helps them get Clan Force Powers etc.

4. Clan Taldryan is the First Clan of the Brotherhood, hence its doing something right. You cant do things exactly the same, no, but the essence of what I said was that sometimes making people wait is better than rewarding them the second they fill the critera. It makes them feel a lot better about having finally earned that promotion. I likened it to giving a baby a sweet every time it does something good, if you start that way, the baby ends up expecting a sweet each time it does something good and won't behave otherwise. Same here. If you promote someone every time they're active they'll always expect it, and not be active or get angry if they don't get promoted in the future as quickly. Use medals. Space things out. Make them work that little bit harder.

5. A lot of blame does get hefted toward the Master-At-Arms, but is it his fault? Surely its as much the fault of the person making the promotion request, no? That means one of two things, either we should firstly not be trying to "sneak promotions past the Master-At-Arms" or secondly we need to better educate the whole of the Brotherhood on the running standards of medals and promotions to ensure consistency across all seven Clans. If some leaders are awarding promotion after promotion, while the members may deserve it, its our job to teach the leaders doing that that they have the power to award medals for a reason and to teach them to understand the standards. Naturally if you're having to appoint a Jedi Hunter to a Quaestor position (which has been done) you have to give a little room to appreciate he or she may not know the standards when promoting to DJK or SW/OT/KP. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem, it just means I'm not necessarily blaming anyone for it.

6. Learn. Thats the key point that comes up. We can all learn from this. If Shadow has a bad feeling about something then theres more than likely a reason for it. Perhaps its a misunderstanding? Perhas he's misinformed? Perhaps he's right? The point is that if nothing wrong was done then discussing it won't hurt anyone. And if there is something wrong we can help those involved and fix the situation. We're not trying to get anyone demoted here or have their medals taken away, we're just trying to ensure equal standards across all seven Clans. Critism is often the first step toward improvement, something can't be fixed if you don't first realise that it's broken.

Dest, even if everyone was uber active, a few months is not enough time between promotions to the rank below DA. Will that person get DA in the next few months for service to his clan too?

That actually made me think of something else, which justifies my point about why its better to have to wait rather than get the promotion the instant you've earned it. If after a month you've done something amazing that suddenly makes you more deserving for KPN/OPM/SO than anyone else ever in the past: should you be promoted?

I'd say no. Here's why:

If you get promoted to KPN/OPM/SO so soon it means you're then going to have to wait even longer than one normally would to get DA. This is what I meant in my first post when I said when I promote someone I don't just look at how long they've held their current rank, I look at how long they held the rank before that too!

If somebody got promoted to KPN/OPM/SO far sooner than usual, it means they're going to find themselves waiting a lot, lot, lot longer to get DA.

Is that fair? Thats the catch with being over kind. It might seem nice at the time to give somebody a promotion early but it means they have to stay active, without getting rewarded, for a lot longer period. I'd rather recieve OPM after 6 months and DA after another 6 months than OPM after 1 month and DA after 11 months. Don't you agree? Two 6 month waits is better than an 11 month wait.

I definately like the point stressing how medals and promotions need guidelines. Now for medals, we do get a rough set of guidelines on the DSC. They say what we can award based on what the member in question has done. ie: active in clan, does comps, plays MP, etc - usually sums up to a Dark Cross.

Maybe guidelines are in the works for promotions but if not it might be a good idea to work on. Just like medals they don't have to be hard coded as in "you, do this then promo" but a solid set of guidelines so you see "OPM? That's the rank below Elder status in the DB. This person should be influencing more than just the members of their House or even clan." Now sure, that's not always going to hold up. Some people devote all their time to their clan. A QUA or PCON or CON putting hard work into their House/Clan for a year would be up for the same promotion, as let's face it, we can't all do order changing things everyday

Someone said earlier that it would be difficult for an Order leader to track each member deserving of a promotion from Templar-Primarch, but when you look at it there's not that many people. Order leaders are far from not informed. They get emails, they have sources from across the DB including CONs and PCONs, etc. It would take them all of 15 minutes to get a good idea of whether or not someone is deserving of an "order" promotion. Not to mention it feels better earning it when the OHC/KHP/SHW has a say in it.

Education is a key aspect of what we're missing in the DB. Honestly, aside from the c/pness of the SA (no offense Spears and other HM-ppls) but you can't learn how to be a good leader from text. It might give you a good basis off of which to go from, but it can't tell you how to do it. Why? Because everyone has different members and styles and personalities. What we should be doing is teaching within our clans. Consuls, Proconsuls, and Quaestors should be showing their members how to lead. If we don't have a hand in it things will keep changing drastically with each passing "season" of leaders. That's more or less what was wrong with the GMRG. Leaders were coming in randomly with their own ways and ideas, if Clan's did that they'd be a mess all the time. That's why those clans who have a lot of leadership turnover are usually the less active and most hurting clans.

Perhaps that is a thing the EMS and CON's could be working on together? Get some sort of leadership initiative going for each clan. I know after I leave I don't want Dinaari going to some random person that knows nothing about the House or who we are, what we are etc. That just means I've been wasting my time this last year, and other QUA's before me have done the same. I've seen it before, not so much in Krath houses, but in Sith and Obelisk - New leader = new history, headquarters, house structure, etc. Doesn't bode well for longevity

Anyways, it's late and I had to post because Goat did. And to the people just posting useless spam - go find a worthless topic to do that under. kthxbye.

In all honestly, my posts are only my form of spam. I need to do something to increase my post count

Still I agree that some kind of promotion guidelines would be a worthwhile idea. Much as I always used to like the fact the Dark Brotherhood didn't have "time in rank" requirements like in the TIE Corps I have to admit, theres just as many problems with our way of total flexibility as theirs of strict requirements.

Consulting Order Leaders is probably the simplest answer at any rate, that way any promotion over DJK becomes the domain of the respective Order Leader, thus you get a standard across the whole club. It might change a little with each Clan, it might change a little with each Order Leader, but it'll be reasonably consistent throughout.

I agree with the need to train new leaders though. The Shadow Academy doesn't teach you how to run a House, it might tell you about your duties (need to run competitions, write reports, etc.) but that doesn't actually make you good at it. Its why I often feel we fail to utilise the benefits that can come of Battleteams, as they're a good starting place for people to experiment and learn, and for us to see if they're actually any good and ready to be an Aedile or Quaestor. This brings us back to the debate 20 months ago during the summer after the split where we pretty much unanimously agreed that Battleteams need to be seriously reworked and the idea of Circles originated as a potential solution.

Now, with a Multi Order system where Order is more or less down to personal taste things really need to be rethought out again, but the essence remains that we often take too much of a gamble with Quaestors who end up proving less than able, something we could avoid if we had the foresight of being able to see what they're like in action as a Battleteam Leader.

*shrugs*

I'll think about some ideas... might post something if I can figure out something decent.

Dear lord, Goat, are your hands permanently fused to the keyboard or something?

Okay, now for my two pennies... I personally think that promotions of this level should be based on a substantial period of activity and service- either excessive service to one's Clan, or to the Order as a whole. I don't think it's fair to insist that anyone getting a promotion to Epis or Primarch or whatever HAS to help the Order more than their Clan (at least, I think that's what was said at some point... Goat's posts are hurting my eyes. Seriously.)- there are times when that's much harder than you might think. Am I just supposed to mail Lannie and say "Hey, I fancy a promotion, is there anything I can do to help you?" That's what Magistrates and Praetors are for.

Granted, I got promoted to KAP after working my arse off for Naga Sadow in the GJW and then spending a good couple of months as Aedile and trying to inspire activity in the house- but it took me maybe... uhm... if the GJW started in September... it took me a good 6 months of activity to get promoted. I think that was about right- but it should be modulated by the degree of activity, to a certain extent. Of course, it isn't right to promote people again after a month even if they're uber-active, but activity should of course be a deciding factor in promotions.

Uhh... before I lose my thread completely and write more than Goat (fat chance) I'll shut up. Hope you understood the above post... I sure as hell don't.

I definately like the point stressing how medals and promotions need guidelines. Now for medals, we do get a rough set of guidelines on the DSC. They say what we can award based on what the member in question has done. ie: active in clan, does comps, plays MP, etc - usually sums up to a Dark Cross.

There are Medal Guidelines, authored by me and used by every CHAN after me. I thought it did a pretty good job of walking people through what a good recommendation is (through examples), explained the differences between various medals, and answered some common medal FAQs. I'm pretty sure Flechy has the latest copy, and to be honest this guideline should be posted and used by the MAA. I don't care about revisions (just credit me ) and Goat and Shadow are right... people need to be educated and must learn, be it through experience or reading auxilliary documents.

Gonna add a few things as I jsut re-read the topic.

First, Mav - No one said they don't do work in CEK, but promos to Exarch and Primarch for simply "clan service" that's utter bs. Especially when you consider the time in between such promos. You want me to email the DC or you and Jac? to what purpose, exactly? To be lossed amongst the countless emails you guys get? Or so that I don't open more peoples eyes to what's going on. As for transfer reasons - horrible idea in the first place. If someone wants to leave the clan they're in why would we force them to stay? "You hate us and want to leave but we're going to make you stay so that you just eventually drop out! Take that." Brilliant strategy there

Now Dest - I'm didn't say anything about the Ziost summit you idiot. You weren't even in CEK when those promos happened. Besides, QUA/AED cannot promote to Exarch and Primarch as stated in the DSC under ranks. My issues isn't with you so stop constantly making it about yourself and Talon.

And there are no all-encompassing promo outlines. Each clan has their own and that's fine. It's not (yet) regulated by the MAA or the DC. But I find it a bit odd when one clan's outline to get Primarch is the same as mine to get Protector - a little more than just "unfair" there.

Belzy - yes there were medal guidelines, but they changed the DSC requirements for each medal. So you more or less know when you should reward each

Holy hell, I go home for a weekend and look what happens. Since pretty much all of the bases have been covered and Khan (and Mav) have said the problem is being worked on, I just want to make a few quick comments.

1) While I have been guilty of it in the past, and I know it is a good way of getting action, I sometimes think that going beyond emailing the DC is a better way to go. Did Shadow posting this topic upset some people? Hell yeah. Did it open a vibrant discussion and shed light on a problem? Yup. And I'll take pretty much anything that heads that.

2) I don't think it is at all absurd to have OLs involved in all promotions after a certain level. All of the OLs are very active and around, and they know most if not all of their Orders active members (even if they only recognize the name), and I think that SHOULD be required to get the upper ranks. I mean you can do a lot of work within your Clan, but shouldn't some of that work required you to work with at least *some* people outside of your Clan?

Other than that I just hope that if nothing else this thread makes leaders take a harder look at the promotion recc's they send in. Personally any promotion to JH or higher gets several paragraphs from me. When I recc'd Sharad for DA I wrote 500+ words, and gathered long recc's from all the other Taldryan leaders as well. Getting promoted (especially to the higher ranks) is one of the most rewarding things we've got in the DB, so lets try make sure everyone at those ranks has *somewhat* equally earned it.

Just to clarify, Order Leaders will be involved in the promotion process, and soon.

Exact promotion guidelines are not going to be put out. However, do expect some clarification from the MAA's Office about each rank and what generally make the achievement of that level. The extra check of the Order Leaders on higher-level promotions will further help to limit mistakes made in the process.

As for my avatar looking female, he doesn't need a beard to be a guy. He's a hapan, they tend to have soft features and stuff. So nyah.

Well I suppose by Goat's method,

Since I waited forever to get SWL, I should get SO in a couple weeks

In seriousness, I am glad to see this openly discussed. It has bothered me for a while. Some people who don't deserve promotions get them while some who do deserve promotions, do not.

Naturally though, Kaek, my logic about double checking their previous promotion only works one way not both ways

The point though is generally a solid one, if, for some random chance, somebody was promoted far earlier than I'd deem appropriate to their present rank I generally agree with them waiting longer for the next rank. If you get Jedi Hunter in a week, sure, great work, but it probably means you won't be one of the select few who by some freak of nature manage Dark Jedi Knight in a month, you'll more likely end up being the sort who waits a good few months for Dark Jedi Knight. I suppose its comparable to saying that everything works its way out in the long term, you might get lucky, but often it comes back to slap you in the face so you ultimately serve your time.

By comparsion, the reverse is sometimes applicable. I remember when, for some unforseen reason I have never figured out, I noticed Malik had been an Acolyte for 10 months and had him rapidly promoted up through to Protector, Guardian and Jedi Hunter a damn sight faster than normal. That's a lot rarer than the other instance where I'd make them wait longer if they get their current rank unexpectedly soon: be it through reasons like we've been discussing with strangely fast promotions, or perhaps promotion upon appointment. That's more what I was drawing on, for in the past, if somebody got DJK and a few weeks after ended up being promoted to SW because they were made Quaestor it usually would mean they'd end up waiting a lot longer for their next promotion given that they'd jumped up far more quickly than they would have done without the unplanned boost.

.... I noticed Malik had been an Acolyte for 10 months and had him rapidly promoted up through to Protector, Guardian and Jedi Hunter a damn sight faster than normal...


The above is precisely why exact promotion guidelines will not be made. That, and we don't want people going to their superiors and saying, "I did this and this and this, I should be promoted!" We'd rather they go to them and ask, "Is there anything else I can do to help out the Clan?" or what not.

*shrugs*

As for this being openly discussed, no one who has said "Email the DC" has said "And shut up your mouth afterwards!" However, sometimes people on the message boards are not so well informed about a situation and these posts might inflame emotions. To someone who feels they deserved their award, to read a post by several DB members saying they don't, it hurts. It happened to me years ago and it's a pain in the ass. Though as far as I was concerned, my work showed I deserved what I got.

Open forum topic usually is meant for inflammatory debate. And no one said just mail the DC and shut up, they said email the Mav and the Jac and CC the MAA office. The stfu afterwards is merely implied And if you're going to get hurt feelings in a topic like this, best advice = stay away.

Demote Mav to NOV!!! Take his silver sash!!! Rabble rabble rabble!!!

Seriously though I was satisfied hearing that the OLs will now be involved and that CoFo is working on ways to insure quality with promos in the future.

Open forum topic usually is meant for inflammatory debate. And no one said just mail the DC and shut up, they said email the Mav and the Jac and CC the MAA office. The stfu afterwards is merely implied And if you're going to get hurt feelings in a topic like this, best advice = stay away.



STFU really isn't implied. *shrugs* As for getting upset by contents of a message board topic, yeah, its generally a good idea to stay away from a topic if it starts to piss you off, but how should someone know that the topic is going to mention them before reading it? hehe.

If people get upset thinking we're saying they don't deserve their promotions they should read our posts fully and realise we've said a number of times they probably deserve them but we're just raising our concerns. Naturally, they'll then be upset for having had to read some of our posts. *grins*

In the end, we upset them either way. Hehe.

Then of course comes the problem with never being awarded for things that no one remembers you doing because you've simply outlived everyone around <_<

Shutting down topic in response to having to remove testosterone bath. Feel free to reopen a new one.