Dark Jedi Code

Umm Hi I have yet another dumb and meaningless question. Is there a code besides the Jedi and Sith code?

Well I would think that the Krath and Obelisk have thier own code along with a Dark Jedi code that unites all three of them. I would believe so though i might be wrong.

There is no fear, there is power.
There is no death, there is immortality.
There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side.
I am the Heart of Darkness.
I know no fear,
But rather I instill it in my enemies.
I am the destoyer of worlds.
I know the power of the Dark Side.
I am the fire of hate.
All the Universe bows before me.
I pledge myself to the Darkness.
For I have found true life,
In the death of the light.


personal code of the Dark Side...thought it could be handy

I'm not sure - I don't think the club has established any varying code for the other orders. Well- let me say this - I don't remember reading/writing one, which doesn't mean it's not out there. It just means if it does exist, it wasn't memorable.

For now, just use:

Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Select, Start.

I waited to speak up because I have been with the DB only since the end of November 2005. Having heard from others I now feel more comfortable throwing my hat in the ring.

This may sound overly philosophical but I cannot see a "code" for Dark Siders. Things are often defined by the parameters of their opposites and, Jedi being our counterparts, the adoption of a code such as theirs, even if a polar opposite, would seem to be antithetical to our decision to not associate with "light" Jedi. Meaning, I believe many of us are here because we seek the knowledge and associations forbidden by the Jedi code. Therefore, for us to adopt restrictions bent upon channeling knowledge and association would defeat the very purpose for our journey here.

If a personal code serves you... so be it. But a DB wide code would just be a rehash of what we claim not to be. To paraphrase Darth Sidious, "the Dark Side is the gateway to knowledge that many would consider unnatural. These things are not to be learned from a Jedi." Code schmode.

I am not saying that for Dark Jedi anything goes. However, in my opinion, each should establish his or her own way rather than become slave to a code that they had no part in creating.

Though shall not kill another fellow Dark Sider unless it is thus declared by vendetta, war, or something like that...yesssss

For now, just use:

Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Select, Start.



That would only work if the DB was a Konami game.

Meaning, I believe many of us are here because we seek the knowledge and associations forbidden by the Jedi code.  Therefore, for us to adopt restrictions bent upon channeling knowledge and association would defeat the very purpose for our journey here.



That's a good point Baron, because herein you evoke the seeming paradox of our situation. We are dark-siders -- a state of inherent selfishness -- but yet we cluster together in a large organization which functions by rules, guidelines and codes -- the very things we dislike -- to maintain order. Without them, the DB would crumble. Yet, without the DB, we could not receive the dark knowledge and training that we seek. So however you choose to reconcile this paradox is the answer to your question. But from the Sith Empire to the days of one master, one student, I'd imagine dark-siders have been grappling with this question for eons: How do we attain unbridled power without succumbing to the regiment and dogma of code and doctrine? I think -- as evidenced in the DB itself -- we really can't. Meaning, we all quell our insatiable dark ambitions to a degree by partaking in the DB's rank and file system as a tradeoff for regulated, incremental access to dark side knowledge and power. So, we can't all be Grand Masters, but we can partake in dark power to varying degrees, with the possibility -- however remote -- of succeeding to the greatest heights.

Dark Jedi aren't necessarily chaotic... quite the contrary. Rule of Two anyone? Perhaps once upon a time but not since the Battle of Ruusan and not in the ancient past either.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking Dark Jedi are like twisted, evil, crazy wizards from D&D which isn't the case. Dark Jedi generally have cause and reason for what they do, they're Machiavellian not insane. Dark Jedi are more faschists than anything, as they just seek to force their ideals on others with the belief all others are inferior to themselves. That's slightly different than going around like a crazy loonatic.

The reality of dark jedi being seen as chaotic is just a rehash of the rectangle/square concept. Some rectangles are a special case which is called a square, but not all of them are; some dark jedi are chaotic, but not all of them. There have been dark jedi who liked to kill just for the sake of causing death, who liked to cause pain and suffering just because they could. Those are not the dark jedi that we're dealing with in the DB, however. Because we are all part of a large group with ranks, specified positions and different degrees of authority we are forced to accept that we can not simply do whatever we want to our fellow dark jedi. As an Aedile I can not tell my Consul how to run our clan, I may have some input into desicions but by virtue of the fact that he holds a higher position then I do he is entitled to disregard my opinion and do whatever he feels is best for the clan. This is the fundimental limitation of the DB.

That is not to say, however, that limitations are a bad thing. These limitations are an attempt to keep everyone in check and prevent chaos and anarchy within the club. Although a basic tennent of the dark side is individualism and freedom to learn as much as the student wishes, it is very hard to have any actual learning when there is no basic order in place. Without order and some garentee of safety then the masters would be constantly having to watch their backs and defend themselves which, in the best case, would leave very little time to teach others. This is why the Sith Empire was destroyed. They were not invaded by the Republic or any other outside force, it was infighting that destroyed the empire.

Going back to the issue of a code, I don't recall an official code ever being adopted by the DB. There is the Sith Code (as found in KoTOR), but I haven't seen anything about it being an official code. I think that, as has been said before, an official code would not help us. The Jedi have a code because their religion is based around a group of people who act as one. The Dark Side, however, is individualistic in nature; it is about each seperate person and what they can get from the Dark Side of the Force. Having a code would tell everyone what they are supposed to get out of the Dark Side, without allowing the individuals to develop their own preceptions and ideas of it themselves. It will also cheapen the final product because the student is no longer required to put effort into discovering the nature of the Dark Side, it is simply handed to them.

One thing that we must be careful about, though, is the use of the word 'Sith'. Within the DB the Sith are only one part of the whole group of Dark Side Force users. Brotherhood Sith follow an ideology, as do the Krath and Obelisk. Outside of the DB, however, 'Sith' is the term used to refer to all Dark Side Force users. There are no such things as Dark Side orders as we use them outside of our club (unless, of course, the idea was taken from us and used by a different group of people); there are the witches of Dathomir, the Krath, etc., but these are examples of sects of Dark Side users, not orders as we use them.

I think that the Potentium Philosophy, Aing-Tii Philosophy, Fallanassi Philosophy and other races have their own codes >:)

If the "lawful versus chaos" debate came into this discussion as a result of something I said then my point was missed entirely. I know that all gamers, including myself, seem to be "hardwired" to assess ethos and law in terms of the Gygaxian nine alignment box, e.g Lawful Good, Neutral Evil. As useful as that device may be, the issue here, in the Star Wars universe, is Dark Jedi versus Jedi.

My point was that the only reason for a Jedi to leave the auspices of the various organizations seen as being "light" Jedi is the belief that the "code" of said "light" Jedi is not compatible with the operating philosophy of the departing or objecting individual. One could, of course, depart the "light" Jedi and operate under his or her own code or make another entirely. That brings us back to the question, "is there a dark jedi code?"

I am aware of none. Whether that has something to do with "law or chaos" or the values of any given "Dark Jedi" or, for that matter, this organization, I do not know. I would, however, suggest that the absence of a code here and the presence of one in the Yoda crowd, is suggestive of something. For that something, I refer the reader back to the comments of my prior post in this thread.

As always, my beliefs work for me. I do not presume to foist them on someone. And, I believe, that is why we do not have a code. Unlike the Jedi, we recognize the advantage of allowing each to seek his own path.

I think a better word to use in place of 'chaos' would be 'individualusm', at least that's what I'm getting from your last post. Here's my quick and dirty interperation of the last post: Jedi have a code that describes how they should think and act. Some people who the Jedi train have issues with this code and choose to leave the order. Once the person is free of the Jedi code they can either operate by a different code or follow none (what you call chaos).

Is that what you were getting at?

Yes, except that I am really avoiding calling one side of it "chaos," in part because I do not think that is what it is and, in part, even if I did, that is such a loaded term given Dungeon & Dragons and Warhammer and all that to the point the word just has too many connotations to too many different people to be useful in a discussion. Someone else brought the "chaos" word into this.

Well said, Crix.

I should have been more specific with my use of 'you'. That's what I get for not proofing my post before it went up. When I said 'you' in relation to the chaos I didn't mean Zarco, that was more of a ubiquious you refering to anyone/everyone who had used 'chaos' as part of their post and descriptions. I also used 'you' to refer to Zarco (e.g. the last sentence), that's where the mix up came from. Sorry about that.

I can definately agree with what you pointed out about codes. I think that to keep this discussion more on track with the origional topic we need to further refine what we call a code. From the other posts on the topic a general definition that I'd give for a code, as it deals with our topic, is a set of beliefs about how one should act and think. I feel that we should add a qualification that it needs to be held by a group of people to that definition. That way we aren't talking about a code that one person uses for themselves, just the Sith code from the Reven/Malik-era Sith Empire, the Jedi code and other codes along those lines.

If you restrict the definition like that then there isn't an officially recognized code for the entire DB. It would be possible for each clan (or order, but without the orde leaders the orders lack any real cohesiveness) to have its own code, however.

Believe me when I say that I am not trying to pick your posts apart. They raise interesting points that impel me to respond.

You referred to a code as "a set of beliefs about how one should think and act." That is exactly why I could not be a Jedi and prefer what I believe to be the Dark Jedi approach.

I could decide to join an organization after reviewing their base line for how to act. I could comport myself within those parameters so long as I believed that the benefits of the organization outweighed the restrictions on conduct. I could never, however, be a part of any group that was concerned with what I thought.

Before I give you the wrong impression, I am referring to groups, not personal relationships. I would, upon giving my pledge, act even against my own self interest to the end in such a pledged personal relationship. In an organization I could not make such a pledge. At some point, maybe tolerating much more than people who would criticize me, I would not take it anymore.

Thus my problem with organizations with "codes" about what to think, as opposed to how to act. The Jedi insist upon controlling even the beliefs and thoughts of its members. Ironically it was Princess Leia that said, "the tighter you grip the more systems will slip through your grasp." That is exactly what happened to the Jedi. They squeezed Qui-Gon Jin, Anakin, et cetera, and everything (including the menace right under their nose) slipped through their grasp.

Perhaps I am getting off the point but our strength in the DB, in my opinion, is having no code. At best such a code would be a juvenile bow to martial arts fantasy. At worst it would be a way to exclude many, such as me, who may have something to offer.

As much as I hate Sidious as a politician his "not from a Jedi" and "see all sides" comments ring true with me. I cannot function in an environment where knowledge is banned or feared at the command of someone who is supposedly smarter than me or has my interests at heart. No way, never.

Is a code (other than one that is developed individually) just another way of avoiding the challenge of developing as a person?

Is submission to a code a way of avoiding personal responsibility?

Many would argue that following a code shows discipline. Perhaps, but it is also missing the opportunity to demonstrate the ultimate discipline of being true to oneself and the committments one chooses upon his own counsel.

The code should be made by each GM, showing the intent of their rule. This could be used many ways, and I'm pretty sure we could start a prett good feud or GJW in the future, after this one, where two sides stand behind different GMs and use their codes as battlecries or something.

Baron Zarco your right the Dark Jedi Shouldn't have a code because of the fact that the DJ left the light in order purge themselvs from the limitations on their power like in a code.

That's a good point Baron, because herein you evoke the seeming paradox of our situation. We are dark-siders -- a state of inherent selfishness -- but yet we cluster together in a large organization which functions by rules, guidelines and codes -- the very things we dislike -- to maintain order. Without them, the DB would crumble. Yet, without the DB, we could not receive the dark knowledge and training that we seek. So however you choose to reconcile this paradox is the answer to your question. But from the Sith Empire to the days of one master, one student, I'd imagine dark-siders have been grappling with this question for eons: How do we attain unbridled power without succumbing to the regiment and dogma of code and doctrine? I think -- as evidenced in the DB itself -- we really can't. Meaning, we all quell our insatiable dark ambitions to a degree by partaking in the DB's rank and file system as a tradeoff for regulated, incremental access to dark side knowledge and power. So, we can't all be Grand Masters, but we can partake in dark power to varying degrees, with the possibility -- however remote -- of succeeding to the greatest heights.



Hmm. Seems to bring back something from History class. This is just like the Vikings. They were true berserkers, but they had set their differences aside and join up, forming a civilzation of Warriors that followed disctinct guidlines. At heart they were fighters, but they couldn't increase in power without doing the one thing they hated the most.

One thing bugs me about this whole thing. Dark Siders don't always hate rules or codes. I hate to tell you this, boys and girls, but the main reason only the nutbars ever show up in history is cause the sensible ones get the nutbars to blow things up for them. When the first Sith accepted the dark side, he didn't do it to spite the Jedi. If anything, the Sith have shown more restraint and order. How many Sith do you think would have gone nuts and trained hundreds of others to do their bidding if their Masters didn't burn order into their heads? When a Sith Apprentice killed his master, he did it because of order and rules. The rules said no teaching till master croaks, so they murdered the master. The Jedi have fluctuated their rules and systems for eons, while the Sith follow the same rules in every form. The Sith didn't leave the Jedi to purge themselves of their codes. They didn't leave at all: They were thrown out. The Jedi Code was too extreme for them, so the biggest dictators in the galaxy, yet the "good guys" in every movie, decided they couldn't be in the club. Rules and restrictions are fine and good, and everyone should have and embrace a system of them, whatever it may be. That doesn't mean one should restrict and mold their very lives about purging their humanity in order to serve the masses. To me, the Jedi just seem like honorable, respectable, good-guy versions of the Nazis. Personally, I'm surprised they don't march around with their hands in the air shouting "Hail Lightside!"

The reason so many of the Sith trained are crazed f-words is because it's easier to get a person to apprentice as a Sith if they're already a damaged man or woman. Darth Maul: Kidnapped as a child, treated cruelly by the only father he knew, therefore grew up with screwed morals and a twisted way of looking at life.

Darth Tyranus: Had his friends betray him when he was very young, causing him to be wary of friendship and attachment, was taunted into looking at a Sith Holocron, which is NOT recommended for young children, caused a massacre which deeply scarred him while fighting the Mandalorians, had one of his padawans disappear, had his first Padawan die, saw the Jedi as a pawn of a corrupt senate and left them, killed his best friend to gain favor of his new Master, Sidious, which left him feeling guilty, and had his disappeared Padawan killed.

Darth Vader: Was raised as a slave until 9 years old, had to leave his mother behind for 10 years, had her die in his arms at 19, slaughtered a village of innocent and semi-innocent sandpeople, fell in love with someone who he couldn't be with, forcing him into secrecy, had his hand removed by Tyranus, cutting down his pride, found his forbidden, barely concealed wife was pregnant with a forbidden, unconcealable child, sided with a Sith to save his wife's life, killed a Master who had just began to trust him, murdered many Jedi and Younglings, killed a room full of helpless, begging seps, choked his wife, fought with his best friend and mentor, who cut him to bits, got sealed in a big, nasty suit, killed countless innocents and good people in the name of his new government and lying master, cut his own son's hand off, had the favor returned by his son, and tortured his daughter severely without even realizing it.

As you can see, all of Sidious' apprentices were crazy f-words as Sith because they were nearly insane and severely traumatized before he turned them. For those who know who Darth Vectivus was, they would know that even as a Dark-Sider, he lived by order and rules. He did so by choice. It's the exact same thing as Sith and sabers, exemplified in a quote by Sidious:

The Sith grew past the use of lightsabers, but we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi.

Darksiders don't hate rules and order, in a way, they love them. No Empire can be built on chaos, no weapon can be built without schematics. The Sith only seem to follow rules that they hate because they always follow other people's rules. True power is to follow rules, learn how to twist them to your will, and, in time, write your own set for others to follow.

Oh, and we have an official code. Use the default layout for the site and go to the Shadow Academy. Before it lets you get there, it shows a page telling you what it is, directing you to the actual SA, and showing a big, fancy shield. Under that, there is the code used in place of the Jedi Code by the Brotherhood.

I didn't say that Dark Jedi hate codes and rules by virtue of being Dark Jedi. I said that some Jedi leave the order (or are expelled, the differance doesn't really matter here the point is that they aren't associated with the Jedi Order anymore) and because they are no longer bound by the Jedi's code and rules they are free to either join a new group and follow their rules or live by their own code.

My point was simply that these individuals had an issue with the Jedi's rules, not the concept of rules in general.

Crix, as you know, you have accurately stated the discussion as it previously occurred. Your response to Kal was succint and accurate. I would be hard pressed to improve upon it as a summary of the prior discussion. Of course, that will not keep me from babbling further in response to Kal's post.

Kal, what's the deal with this "boys and girls" sh*t? Do we seem that immature to you?

At any rate, I believe framing the issue in terms of order v. chaos limits the debate and channels it to be either a) so stilted and artificial as to be purely academic and/or B) becomes so malleable that the discussion becomes lost in semantics. No person is all order or all chaos. In my opinion people, even ficticious powerful ones, do exactly what they want to do. Meaning, barring a superior intervening force, e.g. disease, bullets, vacuum, etc, no matter what f**cked up situation one finds oneself in, that is what they wanted. Martyrs are a good example.

Something in a martyr's deepest desires places them in the situation. People who act "selflessly" do so because that is how they want to see themselves. No matter bad one wants to escape their shell, whether by devotion ot a code, or a cause, or whatever, wherever one goes, he or she is still there. Thus, my argument is that a code is nothing more than a mind game that one plays with oneself (whether consciously, unconsciously or in combination) as inspiration or an excuse or whatever plot device to accomplish some act or hold some set of beliefs for which he or she is not ready to accept full responsibility.

Why does there have to be a "code?" Why seek a set of ideals, supposedly existing outside of oneself, when one could simply create his or her own beliefs and act accordingly? Are humans (and others) so frail that they lack the personal power to create and claim their own standards on an individual basis? If you think a code is necessary then you are necessarily admitting the need for such an external prop to cover for the weakness and lack of self confidence of the individual in need of the "code" or whatever one wants to call their ready-made, order-by-numbers excuse for actions or thoughts they will not own.

My impression is that Dark Siders are more apt to be in touch with their own desires so that a "code" is not necessary for them. They understand the concept of difficult choices and "own" their choices without hiding behind a "code." Or, perhaps, I am wrong. When some Dark Siders speak of the "power of the Dark Side" being seductive they are being as weak as anyone who ever fantasized about some magical "code" that gave them their answers. "The Devil made me do it." I'm caught up in the Dark Side. Fools, weaklings - all.

Many speak of power. Each person will find their own way, or not, but make no mistake about it, a "code" is an artifice used by those not yet able to craft their own way to please themselves. The only power that can be claimed is power that has been hewn from the rock of one's own being by one's own efforts. If someone needs a "code" to function, in my opinion it is like not being able to cook. Those weaklings can take their "code" and their Happy Meal and delude themselves that they have achieved the discipline of some magical "way." It's a joke,

Until one takes responsibility for one's own actions and quits externalizing it in the form of a "code" or a "law" or whatever, he or she, will never have even imagined power, much less brushed against it.

My position has, and continues to be, that Dark Siders, as compared to "light Jedi" of the Old Republic era, are more likely to seek their own counsel. In so doing, they reject the limitations of a code and chart their own course. Yeah, they may offer a code as means of controlling others because they see that weakness abounds but they know they cannot follow a code or rules imposed by others except possibly as means to an end and nothing more.

I realize your point and I am not saying we need a code. I am saying that we already have one. The Dark Jedi utilize a code, but not in the way a Jedi does. A Jedi justifies his actions with a code, the Sith use a code so that one can understand them. Use the Episode 3 Cyris Style layout and choose the link to the Shadow Academy. It will take you to a page directing you to the SA with a coat of arms and a code on it.

Code of the Dark Jedi
There is no peace; there is anger.
There is no fear; there is power.
There is no death; there is immortality.
There is no weakness; there is the Dark Side.

See? It's there.

And as far as the "Boys and Girls" thing, I always talk like that. I meant no offense, I just feel a little corny saying "My honorable and dark companions of the Brotherhood" and a little bored saying "people".

Kal, I don't think you really do understand my point. I didn't say anything about us either needing or having a code (in this part of the debate at least). All I'm saying is that we don't use the Jedi code. I'm also looking at a bigger picture then the Dark Brotherhood, I'm looking at all Dark Jedi.

As for the DB using a code, I realize that there is something on the intro page from that layout. However, I don't remember seeing that code in any other place; not in the DSC, the Codex or anything official from any GM saying that code is the code of the DB.