EH "Transfers"

Morgan

17-05-2006 16:19:32

So some of you may or may not know about the situation with people transfering from the Emperor's Hammer. The Dark Council and Consuls will be voting and wether too allow them too keep thier Emperor's Hammer ranks.

So, i'll start at the split, when the members who decided it was time too leave the Emperor's Hammer, left, they were also expelled, the DB could then have failed after the split, but alot of people felt the same way, and alot didnt, and some wernt sure. The first few months alot of members from the EH were allowed too keep thier ranks. Members of the Emperor's Hammer gave members of the DB hell, after they left.

Now we're 3 years on, the Emperor's Hammer is a diffrent club, which will not allow duel membership. (Dont forget, some members gave up alot when they came with the DB, more then just "medals")

So, members of the Emperor's Hammer, more so recently with the Imperial Dominion split, and some scattered here and there in the past, are wanting to transfer with thier EH Dark Brotherhood ranks.

So my question is, what does everyone think about it?

My opinion is, some of these people are the people who made hell for those who left, if they didnt have the sense too leave then, why now? Some members have come because they were expelled from the EH, whats this club too them? Second Best? At the end of the day, in my eyes, both clubs are diffrent. If they came here because they wanted too be part of something, fair enough, they can be part of it, and work for what this club now is, like the rest of the people who've been in it since the split. Post of this club are people who dont really know what happened back then, as far as thier concerned, the Dark Brotherhood is a seperate club.

Ylith Pandemonium

17-05-2006 16:54:27

you should not blame people for their past mistakes, that isnt fair.

Besides, the DB is a seperate club, hence it had a split to become seperate. And to
deny those who come from the EH now finally realising how much it sucks doesnt make
us much better that them.

This is, people should be looked at from rank to rank. Someone who is like a DJK or + should
keep it. but anyone pre-DJK should start anew. sounds fair enough huh?

Morgan

17-05-2006 16:58:07

So if Halc stepped down as CON, and an EH'er who transfered into two weeks before who got given, say DJM, got Consul, you wouldnt mind?

Kaine Mandaala

17-05-2006 17:09:02

I wrote a long, bitter response but just erased it. My personal experiences with the TIE Corps are not really needed in this discussion, though relevant to a point.

In short - we're not an offshoot from the EH anymore, so unless they were something important, start over at APP. If they're as good as they say they are they'll ascend quickly. Take DJK if they've already made it past there.

Sith Bloodfyre

17-05-2006 17:30:57

Everyone has different feelings. To say that the people who went with the EH "didn't work for their ranks" may or may not be true. The same could be said for people here; I'm not going to bring up specific examples (because I'm not pointing fingers), but I've seen many examples of people being promoted who "didn't work for their rank." We haven't had a perfect system, we haven't had the "definitive progression," or anything like that.

Every rank from the EHDB needs to be looked at. People who were there for years, and who received promotions in a reasonable time-frame should keep their rank. What's reasonable? Anyone can reached DJK in 4-6 months. That's reasonable. Anyone can get to Adept in another 2-3 years (average). There are exceptional cases where it has taken less time, and exceptional cases that have taken more time. You weight each individual on their own merits.

Should all EHDB ranks be accepted based on what they were? Potentially. Should they be weighed by that person's actions, as well as their current level of input and activity? Absolutely. Should they be denied just because "they made fun of us"? No. Good god; I've made enough fun of people here that if that were the case, I'd be busted back down to Apprentice.

Yeah, some people were dicks in the past, but people were dicks on both sides. Who cares. Sometimes it takes people a while to pull their head out. We're still waiting for some people who stayed with us after the Split to pull their heads out, too. And so on, and so forth. If you want to fix this amicably, get 4-6 people to weigh each rank transfer, take 1-2 days per person (if necessary), and put in a recommend as to whether the rank should transfer, or part of their rank, or none.

Simple solution. You can thank me later.

freshjive taldrya

17-05-2006 18:44:37

I'd say that a case by case basis would be best because I don't see an agreement coming out of any of this discussion. My own opinion is that I dont think that ranks should be kept.

Its been three years (damn, has it been that long?), I'd say any amnesty we extend has long been exhausted. We've moved in such different directions that there is hardly any parity with the EHDB anymore. If someone from the Star Vipers or Rebel Squadrons wanted to come here, we wouldn't take their rank and position into consideration would we?

I know its not quite the same, but still, where is the line drawn?

I've opened my mouth about this a couple times before, the line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise the efforts, hard work, blood sweat and tears that a lot of people have put into this place over the past three years are severely devalued. There was more than ample opportunity for people to transfer over when this was all happening, maybe they didn't share our viewpoint, I don't want to penalize them for that, that would be wrong, but, they haven't done the work and had the dedication that everyone thats been here for the last three years has. They've earned their ranks doing something that is the total antithesis of our organization. If anything, they should get the ranks and awards they had when the split occured.

Its time that we stopped grandfathering people in.

Tarax Kor

17-05-2006 21:23:28

If someone from the Star Vipers or Rebel Squadrons wanted to come here, we wouldn't take their rank and position into consideration would we?




I was a Grand Master once, in the SV's Jedi Division, the Lost Order. Does that mean I get a GM rank here as well?

Of course, I'm kidding. Well, I was a GM. That part is true. But the fact that I'd want that rank and other ranks I've had there transferred over here is stupid. What I have in the DJB, I have through my actions and deeds done here, not some other club. It should be kept that way. Sure, the DB was once a part of the EH, so keeping some of the people's ranks that transferred over made some sense. 3 years later now, as it's been said, we're a different club now. The time for keeping the ranks during the transfer should be over. Long over. Yes, the ranks they obtained matter...but they matter where they were obtained, not in some other place. If you're a Doctor in France, you cannot be a Doctor in Canada until you pass the right qualifications and a certain amount of time has passed.

Muz Ashen

17-05-2006 21:45:32

If i was knighted by the Queen of england, and decided to become an American Citizen, would they give me the Congressional medal of honour?

No. Because I've not done anything in the states yet to warrant that kind of honour.

Point is that medals and rank are indicative of things you've done for this club... The Dark Jedi Brotherhood. Not the EHDB... Not the RS, not any other club...but this one.

By permitting people to get ranks that they didn't earn, we are belittling the people who have spent the time working up from entry level. That's not what we want to do, is it?

Yes, we were once part of the EH, but we left for a damned good reason. Now, I'd be all right with letting people transfer in with a rank and medal circa the split, as work done for the EH prior to the split really dfid benefit us, but anything beyond that is like handing out free ranks and medals.

Everyone in both clubs is aware of the other. It's not a surprise how either club is run...and at the end of the day, we have no obligation to honour work done for another club.

Morgan

17-05-2006 21:49:15

Heh, good posts.

Though on the pre-split rank, the arguement can be, that was 3 years ago, whatever effort they put into the DB then, graphics, website - anything like that, probably no longer exists in this DB, therefor, if they are joining now, thier effort upto the split may no longer have any meaning.

Korras

17-05-2006 21:56:04

I am very simple on this. Against. Why? They did not do work in this club. Pre-split, fine. They can keep that. After that, not just like that. To me, they’ll be just like anyone else who just joined. GRD pre-split? Fine. A GRD you are now. You want your DA back? Fine. Work for it, just like everyone else here. At the minimum, I’d want to see at least three months (or more) of time at pre-split rank, to prove that person’s loyalty, before even CONSIDERING what he/she gets back.

Look at it this way. Here we have Cajun Chicken, who just worked his arse off for DJK, and had to go through my torturing (:P). what if tomorrow one KPN from the EHDB joins, just gets his old rank back, just like that? With no work for this DB? No way, jose. That KPN did NOTHING for this DB to warrant his rank. What’s next? Awarding SV Lost Order awards to people here? That club is a splinter group from the old DB, too. Or, maybe, RS medals, while we’re at it?

and people who are going "DJK is fine".. no, it's not fine. maybe to us at the higher ranks it's nothing. but to those on the lower ranks it is. we put our members through DJK trials. sure, they'll be real happy if some EHDB'er gets placed in, at DJK, as a giveaway because his old EHDB rank was too high. people claim it's not hard to get. then let them get it again. they shouldn't be complaining if it isn't too hard. our members go through it. they can go through it as well. and for them, it should be even easier, because they've been there and done it already. and if they haven't, too bad, why are we giving it to them then? even more reason for them to do it.

last time I checked, we were here for our members. to make this club fair to them. not to please EHDB'ers who've been expelled, or whatever. not to make things easier for them. we don't make it easier for our current members, either, do we?

Tarax Kor

17-05-2006 22:11:38

...and here I hoped I'd get my GM rank transferred over. :P

Ashia Kagan

17-05-2006 22:11:44

I wasn't around during the actual split, in fact, I haven't been in the DB for very long, but I am working my way forwards. As a member that has worked hard to get where she is now and continuing to work hard, I would hate for someone who was in another club and decided to transfer NOW, versus 3 years ago, get a position ahead of me when I've worked my butt off for it.

So, yes, I'm against. It's not fair. They shouldn't have things just handed to them. I'm in agreement with some of the others, pre-split, fine. But after that? No way. We have been around for 3 years now. They could have joined at any point in time, but they didn't until things got 'ugly' for them in EH.

That's my opinion, for what it's worth, which I realize isn't much at my current position and rank. But then again, from what I've heard...isn't that why we split from the EH? To be able to voice our opinion, have it considered and not get smacked for it?

kraval

17-05-2006 22:43:55

I personally think they shouldn't get a thing. I don't care if they got their stuff pre or post split, why should they get special treatement in the form of rank and medals for what they did in the EH? What have they done for THIS club that merits such privelage? No, you want ranks and medals then you need to start being productive for this club to earn them.

Sith Bloodfyre

18-05-2006 02:05:45

You guys are all basically presenting good arguments abotu why they need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. And that's the point. No, nothing should be automatic. Everything should be examined, and people should receive what's fair. Nothing more, nothing less.

Werdna Elbee

18-05-2006 02:38:52

Pre-split ranks - Yes
Post-split ranks - No

Why do I think this?
...because it's what I did and I'd be hypocritical to say otherwise.

I was 'retired' but for the most part I stayed in the EH. Had I actually been active at the time I don't know which side I would choose, as I agreed in principle and did have friends who left, but on the occasions I'd return (during holidays) I picked the TIE Corps.

Not the EH, not the EHDB...I chose a group that I had more friends in.
I am not loyal to a club. A blind loyalty is a reason that others stayed in the EH.
I am loyal to my friends within it. I should not be punished because I was put into a difficult situation and had to make a choice. Neither should these other people.

As time passed the other groups got 'Ast-raped' and more and more friends left. When I returned from a long retirement six months ago I chose the DJB.

But I agree that only work put into the DB before the split should be considered. While it was a long time ago it was still done to benefit the DJB and should be rewarded. Also, these members should not be treat as Judas's once they are members and trying to get promotions.

Tarax Kor

18-05-2006 03:13:12

You guys are all basically presenting good arguments abotu why they need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.  And that's the point.  No, nothing should be automatic.  Everything should be examined, and people should receive what's fair.  Nothing more, nothing less.




I see what you're saying, and I agree that it would be fair. But...I still feel the need to disagree when it comes down to the whole issue. Part of me still believes that it should be from the ground zero for everyone. Would it be fair? [Expletive Deleted F-word] no. That's the problem, though. But then again, any possible bias that could potentially factor in in the case-by-case deciding procedure would be factored out. Rare chance that it'd happen, but it's still a possibility.

Morgan

18-05-2006 10:06:07

Heh, i'd also like too point out here, most of the members in this club, wernt part of the EH, and joined after the split.

So guys, no matter what your rank or position, post your view. ;-)

I'm sure the DC would like too hear what you have to say on the subject, we've had good mature responses so far.

I feel all proud :-P

Sith Bloodfyre

18-05-2006 13:53:13

Actually, a lot of good points have been made. We do have to determine what is fair. We do have to make sure that, even as much as we want to embrace and serve the people who are coming over now, that it does not tread on what is fair to the people who have been here since the Split, or before. But many of the people who are joining now were here before the Split, and may be looking to transfer what they had before the Split.

Is it fair three years after? Maybe yes, maybe no. Should everything be transferred? Again, maybe yes, maybe no. That's why I say, everything that has been said points towards weighing out each individual case on its own merits. Everything said points towards making sure that fair is fair. And that includes "what is fair to them" just as much as "what is fair to us."

Halcyon

18-05-2006 14:03:41

Although I personally don't "care" one way or another, I also know that my view is fairly skewed. However, looking at this from those who joined after the Split, I can see the inherent "problem".

I don't think it's a question anymore of "fair" or not. If you think of it from a purely logical point of view...we are two completely different clubs. We were once the same club, but we ceased to be the "same" 3 years ago. We're an offshoot...or the original...whatever. Either way, although we share similar names and structures, we are not the same, and as such those joining from the EHDB should be treated just about as equally as someone from any other online club.

I saw just about, since if they happened to be in the DB pre-split, then those ranks/medals should "count" in this DB. Why? Because, at that time, we were the exact same club. So for those who say they should start right from the beginning are also looking at this skewed. You ask what they did for the club? Well, anything pre-split, they did do for this club. One and the same. Post-split is of course a completely different story, and I'm in agreeance with the "majority" in that anything after the split really shouldn't count.

And I think the key point really is the time as well. I mean...it's been 3 years. That's a long time, so we can't even compare the two anymore. If anyone wants to join, they can have their pre-split stuff and that's that. Plain, simple, easy and "fair" for everyone

Anonymous

21-05-2006 13:47:20

"So if Halc stepped down as CON, and an EH'er who transfered into two weeks before who got given, say DJM, got Consul, you wouldnt mind?"

I would mind. I don't think an EH'er should be able to transfer in to this club and get a position just like that. No way in hell. A position as a member of a Clan? Absolutely. But nothing in any sort of administrative level. Not for a while, at least. They would have to prove themselves, and earn the position in *this* club, not another club. It's not like the DB is lacking in qualified individuals. There's always someone, somewhere, who can fill a spot adequately. It's just a matter of finding that person. Either way, a person in this club should take precedence over a transfer from the EH, regardless of the transferees qualifications.

As for rank, that all depends. I'd like to say look at it on a case by case basis, but that wouldn't actually be fair to all people transferring from the EH to the DB.

My solution? Institute some sort of system for "defectors". A person transfering can join at say...half of their current rank, and retain half of their current medals. Something like that. So a Dark Jedi Master could transfer over at the rank of Sith Battlemaster. This would be a fair and just system.

I honestly think, regardless of the person, and regardless of how close they are to members of this club, and how much sympathy they've given members of this club, they should not retain their rank when coming here. Not now. Not 3+ years later. That might sound a bit unsympathetic to the people transfering over, but honestly...they've had over 3 years. If they transfer now, it's not because of what happened 3 years ago. Know what I mean?

Those are my opinions / suggestions.

Aidan Kincaid

21-05-2006 14:29:51

Very, very against this. If anyones actually taken the time to look and see how the EHDB awards members 98% of it is a [Expletive Deleted F-word]ing joke. People getting DA+ rank as well as EDs for maybe a month of DC work comparable to a BT leader here. These people should retain this stuff? [Expletive Deleted F-word] that.

It has now been three years since the split. We are two vastly different clubs now. If they want to come back here then they start as APPs. Simple as that. These are the people that insulted us and attacked us over and over on IRC, MBs, emails, etc for most of a year. Has everyone forgotten that? In all honesty I'd say [Expletive Deleted F-word] them. They chose the EH, they can stay there. We've had so many problems with members switching camps now. They complain about how we run things in our club even though they just quit there's for how it was run.

This is yet another example of unnecessary effort for the DC. Yes, let's spend our time doing a case-by-case analysis of every EHer that comes back here, let's police people's fictional DB names and their families, blah blah blah. Basically we're doing more petty worthless stuff that's derailing the important things. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Either EHDbers should start at APP rank or not be allowed back at all.

MichaelArkarso

21-05-2006 14:50:09

Pre-Spilt ranks/medals: I guess that goes ok. I guess that's more up to those DB members that seperated the DB from the EH to decide if they want to give those their ranls and merits back that stayed with the EH.

Post-Split ranks/medals: Don't makes much sense to me when someone that was 2 years member in the EHDB and starts here now starts with an higher rank and more honors then someone that has been in the RS or the SV before. Sure they may have earned their ranks in the EHDB, but I don't think the other clubs give out their ranks just for fun. :ermm:

Andan Taldrya Marshall

21-05-2006 15:45:39

Like has been said many times before, there's no reason for ranks and medals from a seperate club to transfer over when you join a new one. The DB and EHDB were the same club up until the split, so it makes sence for any rank and medals earned up until this point to transfer. Those of us who came with this DB during the split kept our rank and medals, there's no reason why the people who decided to come over later can't have the same thing.

The moment that we seperated from the EHDB, however, we became two seperate and distinct clubs. We don't transfer ranks and medals from the SV or any other club, there's no reason why we should transfer ranks from the EHDB past the point where they stoped being the same club as us.

Arania

21-05-2006 17:26:49

I still see the other DB and us as belonging together somehow, separated by unfortunate circumstances, thus the argument about RS and whatever other clubs doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

We've done case by case evaluations since a while, and I think it's fine this way. The few people over there still left who were there before the split should of course keep their stuff.

Tarax Kor

21-05-2006 18:46:45

I still see the other DB and us as belonging together somehow, separated by unfortunate circumstances, thus the argument about RS and whatever other clubs doesn't seem to make much sense to me.




The SV's Lost Order was co-created by Mav in order to establish a jedi division similar to the DB's structure (in fact...it was almost exactly the same) in another club, away from EH control. Throughout certain points in time since then, the LO had several people who were also in the EH. The ties may be blurry, but they are there. And those ties (even when I was GM of the LO) were stronger then, than the ties between the current EHDB and the DJB of today.

So...where the [Expletive Deleted F-word] is my Grand Master rank? I want it transferred over. :vail:

freshjive taldrya

21-05-2006 19:00:09

I still see the other DB and us as belonging together somehow, separated by unfortunate circumstances, thus the argument about RS and whatever other clubs doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

We've done case by case evaluations since a while, and I think it's fine this way. The few people over there still left who were there before the split should of course keep their stuff.




Refering to the split and the actions taken then and since then merits a little more than an "unfortunate circumstances" tag. There is definately no love lost for us from the EH, so trying to contextualize it in that manner is just stupid.

The argument about the RS and SV was presented to provide a contrasting example...its what people do in debates to weigh the pros and cons of courses of action, compare and contrast.

Duga Taldrya Arkarso

21-05-2006 19:03:08

I still see the other DB and us as belonging together somehow, separated by unfortunate circumstances, thus the argument about RS and whatever other clubs doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

We've done case by case evaluations since a while, and I think it's fine this way. The few people over there still left who were there before the split should of course keep their stuff.



And there is the problem. Some people still see us being together, when obviously we are not. We separated to get our independence, to be our own club as was when the DB joined the EH as a sister group. If someone moved up there in the last 3 years, they haven't done anything for us. They are a different club, with different people, and different standards. We aren't the same anymore, three years later, I just don't see what some people apparently see.

If we honor people coming from there with what they didn't earn here, we might as well do it for any and every SW club out there. It's the same thing. Is that fair? Hell no, that's neglecting OUR ACTUAL members. I came to the DB from another club about three years ago, do I expect to be given something from them as it's the same thing in this case? Nope, not one thing. I wouldn't want that. I come here to be part of this club, not what I left behind.

I'm fine with anything pre-split, as we were the same club then. After that, it's a no go for me. My two cents on it.

Andan Taldrya Marshall

21-05-2006 20:06:46

I still see the other DB and us as belonging together somehow, separated by unfortunate circumstances, thus the argument about RS and whatever other clubs doesn't seem to make much sense to me.



You can see the situation however you like but that doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. The EHDB is simply not the same club as this Dark Jedi Brothehood anymore. We left and the EH decided to create a new Dark Jedi club to replace us. They created a new club. If the people who stayed behind when we left decide that they'd like to join is then that's fine, we'll take them. We aren't going to reward them for things that they did in a different club, however. We were still the same club before the split so it makes perfect sence to transfer everything that they had up until we became two seperate clubs.

Kaek

22-05-2006 04:04:25

I thought I would post some information here so as to spur some more discussion.

We have recently finished a poll taken of the Dark Summit and most people think we should go with the policy of allowing pre-split ranks and awards and disallowing post-split ranks and awards. Reading many of the comments here and from what others have told me, this seems to be the most popular option.

A final vote will be taken among the Dark Summit in the next few days. In the meantime, I encourage you to express your opinion to your CONs and other Dark Council members. In addition, I will be monitoring and reading this topic so as to understand your opinions so you can post here or email me or talk to me on IRC - whatever you want. I'm not going to hide :P

Thanks in advance!

Morgan

22-05-2006 08:48:10

So i have a question, where do we draw the line? This is [Expletive Deleted F-word]ing me off now. Seriously, the EHDB is prolly going too shed members more and more. I'm a member of this club, who just wants to have fun, not lead or anything like that. I also joined after the split, so from my point of view, these people were never in THIS club.

Pre Split, [Expletive Deleted F-word] that, as Shad said, this was 3 years ago. They had 6 - 12 months too make thier choice, they didnt come then, they came NOW. Yes lets go back over the numbers here: 3 Years. From the points of view of people who have come here since the split. these people from the EHDB are NEW members, just like them, they were never part of THIS Dark Brotherhood.

Over the past 3 years this club has become very diffrent in its own way from the EHDB, anything these people contributed has probably been swept away and replaced by the people of THIS Brotherhood.

Sith Bloodfyre

22-05-2006 09:40:43

Morg, lemme ask you something. What about a person who was here 10 years ago, and made sure that post clubs documented his record? What about someone who was here 8 years ago, and was tossed out back then by the HCI, and allowed back only recently? What about someone who was a member six years ago, and was never really active in the DB, but is coming back for friends?

There's a lot of "what if's" in this situation. And the solution back then was, anyone at the Split could keep their records here; no one had to delete them. Some of them did. And those records were either deleted, or (like many) put on invis during those DB-wide AWOLs we've had within the past few years. They may not have been deleted, and may be just a push of the button to re-activate them.

There's also the question of time. The EHDB database (for the most part) only goes back to the Split, when they re-created the DB there; some people had those ranks and such before the Split; again, they're just re-activating their dossiers in some cases. Kaek has already said, the likelihood is that they'll get what they had prior to the Split, which means anyone coming who joined after the Split is likely to get to start over.

I could be just as pissed off as anyone else. I've been with the DB for over six years, and this was the only club I did anything with. I stayed here after the Split, I worked my ass off. Does it devalue my rank and awards if they come over here? Does it devalue my stuff if someone gets to jump up to DJK, or SWL, or DA, or anything? Why would it? It doesn't make anything I did less valuable. It doesn't have to demean anything that I've done.

This is a hugely subjective topic. No one can say or do anything to make people feel a certain way. We can only express ourselves. And now the people who are coming back see that some people are going to be pissed off at them being here, or just being here with "what they had back when." I can say one thing. This can possibly continue hostilities in some form, and to be honest, who gives a [Expletive Deleted] about that. I'd rather not get caught up in bitching and complaining about [Expletive Deleted]. I'd rather move on and get back to doing [Expletive Deleted] that I want to do, with the people I want to.

If it's that important, the point has been made. Ignore the people you want, or give them the opportunity to prove that they're worth it. Seems like the only resolution to me. Either way, there's better [Expletive Deleted] to focus our attention and energy on.

Morgan

22-05-2006 10:21:26

Well, i have no problem with people who were inactive over the split. But those are a minority who come here. Alot of the people who are transfering were active over the split, and chose too stay. 10 years or not, [Expletive Deleted] loads of effort or not. They made thier bed, they should lay in it. :-P

The active ones had too choose which club was thiers, where thier rank mattered. They chose the EH. They made thier decision then, they didnt want anything to do with this club. The fact this was 3 years ago backs it up.

Predator

22-05-2006 10:57:29

Personally I think that it should be pretty much on a case by case basis however the case by case should not just be judged by 2-3 members of the Dark Council, I personally think it should be a number of people in good standing within the club from all ranks who should judge each case with guide lines.

Guidelines being that in most cases pre-split rank only applies
Exceptional activity MAY grant extra rank but only in extreme cases where it can be proved that it has made them a more useful member now.

I.e we give them a chance to keep a higher rank but the focus is very much that pre-split rank applies and a trial of sorts between a fair selection of peers (not just pre-split buddies (and please bear in mind i would be a pre-split buddie to many EH'ers!)) but rather a mix of pre-split and post-split members.) for higher rank.

Oberst

22-05-2006 11:23:25

This has got to be one of the most puerility infused discussions going on right now. This is also one subject I'm more than happy to defer to KaeK on, since it's a headache largely on his end and not mine. If you feel that threatened by someone coming over from the EHDB, perhaps an evaluation of your affairs are in order, because I'm quite sure there are more important issues within and without the Brotherhood. Especially without.

Yes, that means I'm in favor of allowing people back in at their Pre-Split ranks and positions. Do not make this out to look like they're the dregs and castoffs, because they aren't. And do not make this out to look like we walked away with all the good members, we didn't (Lenzar anyone?). Seriously, I'd love to see Tau back in the Brotherhood. I'd like to see Yoni taking a new generation under his wing and influencing the next Khyron or the next Sirrus. Stating that they made their choice three years ago, isn't quite that clear cut, because you're ignoring the foundation they laid both by example and work, and I'd put up a Yoni or a Reinthaler or a Havok up against each and every member serving currently and be confident in the fact that as good as we've got, they're better.

Sith Bloodfyre

22-05-2006 11:46:44

And, I just have one thing to say about "they made their decision, no going back." The EH's policy was there was no dual membership. The EH forced people to pick and choose; we did not. Our policy has ALWAYS been one where dual membership is welcome, and everyone has a place. By that policy alone, they're granted the right to have what they had at the Split. That means, whether they stayed here or went with the EH, whatever they can show they had at the time of the Split, they keep.

Anyone who was here at the time of the Split has every right that you or I have Morg. And the people who weren't? Well, they have the right to be a member and start out fresh, and they have the right to be promoted at a fair pace determined by their leaders, to be approved by the MAA when they send in recs. Like it or not, that's how it is.

And quite frankly Morg, I'd leave it there. You're beginning to sound bad. I'm not going to mention who you sound like by name.

Halcyon

22-05-2006 11:56:19

I'm actually in agreeance with BF on his last point. Personally, I could have just as easily stayed in the EH instead of "going" with the DB. Hell, I was in both until I was expelled by Ast over some stupid thing. The point is, many people "chose" the EH over the DB because that's where they had more friends, new more people, etc...I was a member of the Tie Corps longer than the DB and knew a slew of people there. I wanted to help them out any way I could. People don't have loyalty for the club as much as for their friends and those they've worked with in the past.

Basically Morg, you're turning this into some sort of witch-hunt, when it's far from that in any way at all. "pre=split" IS our club. There's no ifs, ands or buts about that. That is OUR history, and anyone in the club at the time was also a part of that. We've all come to a "fair" choice on this matter, one that takes into account the history of this club and our current situations (pre-split stuff ok, post-split stuff not ok). Nice and simple. Now, get over yourself :P

Anonymous

22-05-2006 12:00:26

It's 3 years later and we're a different club, but I don't really mind the "pre-split" ranks and medals idea, but if we do implement that I think anyone post-split needs to start all over if they come here. As an Apprentice.

As for the people talking [Expletive Deleted] about us, etc...blood was boiling at the time of the split, and I don't think we should hold it against those people. But if they were talking smack 2-3 years afterwards, they should be refused their pre-split rank. They should have to start over. They obviously don't respect us, and are only coming here because they didn't get their way someplace else.

EDIT: One last thing though, you guys...this is a general discussion topic. Morg has his views and opinions, and we all have ours. Let's not tell people to shut up or knock it off. It is their opinions and they have the right to express them. Even Morg. :P

Xanos

22-05-2006 12:13:07

And do not make this out to look like we walked away with all the good members, we didn't (Lenzar anyone?).

Lenzar was actually an EHDB transfer :P

Morgan

22-05-2006 14:10:17

Hmm, Halc, i'm glad you brought up all that. Problem is, how many new members do you think know what you're tlaking about? How many care?

Its not a witch hunt, its really, people have joined this club, and they've only know this club, not the EH, not any other club. Its all ancient history, but not the next generation of members history, you have to agree with me there? ;-)

You have to see it from the next generations point of view, really. As far as thier concerned, all new people, this club has always been its own club, and since the split, i do believe there are more post split members. So from thier point of view, this is my point of view, perhaps i dont speak for everyone, but, these people are coming from another club, and getting awards they work hard for, for free in this club. Yeah I also understand that the EHDB and the DB were one club. Some of you might have been revolutionary in your ideas, which is why you are here. :-P

Another thing is, Thorin, who also came from the EH, and he didnt ask for a transfer, he re earned his rank and awards, is it so hard? If some one is going to be active, isnt it more rewarding too earn these things again? Wouldnt it be better too earn peoples respect for earning these awards and ranks? Otherwise, people are going to just sneer.

Ya know, i'm sure some of you transfer guys deserve your ranks, but wouldnt you rather show every APP, every DJK, every DJM, and every ex-GM why? Then just jump in there?

This is why i dont really understand why people as for thier ranks, i personally, wouldnt. Just doesnt make sense too me. I'd rather earn the respect of the current members, then claim awards and rewards from before they even joined the club. I dunno that just means more too me, perhaps i'm stupid, or acting like a "dip[Expletive Deleted]" pardon me for feeling that way.

Halcyon

22-05-2006 14:31:07

Example: You leave the club for a year or two. When you come back, you are entitled to the same rank/medals. If a past GM comes back but weren't here for a few years...they still have the same rank/medals.

This has nothing to do with "then" and "now". If you were in the club, you keep your "things". Once again, the DB has been around for what...10 years? Something like that. We have been split for the last 3 years and a bit. That means we have almost 7 years of "history" prior to the split. Yes, "new" people don't know about that history...hell, I don't know it all either. However, if someone from "back then" comes back and they get their same rank and medals...well...they DID earn them as part of THIS club. That is the point of allowing people to "keep" their Pre-split stuff...because it is the SAME club.

Duga Taldrya Arkarso

22-05-2006 16:58:30

Example: You leave the club for a year or two.  When you come back, you are entitled to the same rank/medals.  If a past GM comes back but weren't here for a few years...they still have the same rank/medals.

This has nothing to do with "then" and "now".  If you were in the club, you keep your "things".  Once again, the DB has been around for what...10 years?  Something like that.  We have been split for the last 3 years and a bit.  That means we have almost 7 years of "history" prior to the split.  Yes, "new" people don't know about that history...hell, I don't know it all either.  However, if someone from "back then" comes back and they get their same rank and medals...well...they DID earn them as part of THIS club.  That is the point of allowing people to "keep" their Pre-split stuff...because it is the SAME club.



Perfectly said there Halc.

Morgan

24-05-2006 18:10:03

I'll give my explination too my point of view. The DB split because it had very little freedom in the EH. Therefor when the DB split, it did so too change the way it was, improve in many ways as we can see today, even more of a success.
Why do i say this club is a diffrent club? Because i appretiate the effort some people have gone for it, some people have worked hard at this club, and from the split till now, if you can call this the same club, then your ungrateful too the people who have put so much effort into improving this club, too making it what it is today. This isnt about what club you come from, this is me saying, this isnt the same club that left the Emperor's Hammer. Its name may be the same, some of its members and leaders may be the same. But the input of members old and new alike have changed this club over the past 3 years. You guys can talk bull[Expletive Deleted] how its not about then and now, perhaps it is, perhaps its not. In my eyes, its appretiation of the members who have changed this club, the members who wanted the DB too leave the EH , so the DB could better itself, and change. I dont care wether some one is EH, RS, GE, SV, VE, FES or any other club. If some one wants to say this is the same club, then you dishonour every member of this club, and every fiction they;ve written, every game they've played. hey perhaps i'm on a high horse, perhaps i just appretiate people like Smoke, Jac, FF, Korras, Alanna, Goat and many other for what they do, and have done for this club.
I also look at it this way, when the original DB;ers are gone, there will be no one to say this was the same club. It was once, not anymore.

Sarin

24-05-2006 21:04:16

Really, we can solve this whole thing. I know what we should do here. We should turn these people away. Better yet, lets start our own intelligence division to watch over our membership. We do not want any of these EHDBers to infilitrate our organization and make it a worse place. To make sure we keep them away, lets set up a policy where our members are not allowed to talk to them. Any member caught hanging out with an EHDB wanna-be transfer should immediately be sent to the CoJ. Or hell with the CoJ, lets just do an immediate expulsion. I really do not see a problem with forcing our members to choose between the DB and their friends. It is either our way or the high way!

Hell, we can even appease our more leftist members. Lets allow a few of these EHDB transfers to come in. Say some of those lame ass fake Dark Council types over there. We will make them become Apprentices and humble them. They need to learn what real activity is like. None of that lame SA, MP, SP, Fiction that they have over there in the EHDB. No, we will make them do our SA, MP, SP, and fiction. Totally different. Also, we have to blacklist them from leadership. There is no freaking way I am going to serve under some no talented EHDBer. Even if they make our current Con look like a jackass, I would rather suffer than degrade myself to their inferior leadership techniques.

Wait...wait....that sounds like an old club I used to be in. And it sounds a lot like half of your posts on this thread.

Muz Ashen

24-05-2006 21:43:32

Really, we can solve this whole thing.  I know what we should do here.  We should turn these people away. 

NO one said this. You're being dramatic and overly emotional.


Say some of those lame ass fake Dark Council types over there.  We will make them become Apprentices and humble them.  They need to learn what real activity is like.  None of that lame SA, MP, SP, Fiction that they have over there in the EHDB.  No, we will make them do our SA, MP, SP, and fiction.  Totally different. 

first off, you're trying to make a point by over-reaching, and you know it. So i'm going to cut through the emotional appeal. the activities are not totally different...and no one claims to the contrary... but it is a different club. You do not get 'paid' for the same week of work twice. EVER. And that is what this is effectively trying to do. All the activity you did for the EH, that ANYONE has ever done for the EH was rewarded BY the EH.

We ARE NOT the EH.

We ARE NOT taking away EH medals... no one here ever had them to begin with. You want to complain about EH medals and rank going away, go yell at the person who did it. It isn't Jac, it's not Xanos, It's not anyone here in our club. That's one of the many reasons we left the EH. We don't roll like that. Ask FF how many people have been actively expelled.


Also, we have to blacklist them from leadership.  There is no freaking way I am going to serve under some no talented EHDBer.  Even if they make our current Con look like a jackass, I would rather suffer than degrade myself to their inferior leadership techniques. 

Yeah, that's why you're Consul?

let's look at the DC. Right now. I am the only person who did not serve in in the EH.

It's not the matter of what club you were in, or what rank you have there. Heck Morg holds a high rank in another club. So does Duga. So did Mav. I hold a relatively high rank in martial arts. And I know a handfull of people who have multiple degrees from real world learning institutions.

The point is that this club doesn't have to recognize those outside acheivements. Matter of fact, it shouldn't. It should only recognize what people do for *this* club.

Now, I've been pretty vocal on the DC emails about the matter, brining up a lot of examples for people to understand the fallacious arguments getting made for those who would have post-split ranks transfer over...

and at the end of the day, the EH people feel that they are being slighted by us not recognizing another club's authority over us.

this is the precursor to the war of 1812, played in an electronic medium.

Just as a country has no obligation to confer honours of a displaced foreigner,
just as a new tenant has no obligation to pay rent owed by the previous tenant,
just as a company has no obligation to pay the back wages owed a new hire by their last company,
this club has no obligation to recognize any honours conferred when they were not earned in this club.

Further:
We did not award these honours.
We can not take them away.
If you were expelled from the EH, you haven't any honors, so there's nothing to transfer.

I'm sorry. I really am. But we can't give preferential treatment to other club's members at the expense of our own members. That is not fair.

We knew that the EH sucked. We knew that it was a totalitarian regime. Read the grievances... if you were there at the time, you saw them, and made a decision based on it. We knew that sooner or later, every last one of us would be out of the club for some perceived slight or other.

THAT IS WHY WE LEFT.

And frankly, thus constant ad hominem assault, to act as though we are the EH, is crass and demeaning.

If this were the EH, averyone disagreeing would be replaced, this forum would have been locked and deleted, and those people expelled without warning.

But, we're not the EH.

Isn't free speech grand?

Kaek

24-05-2006 21:50:42

I still think you people care about this way too much....sorry if I sound callous but I mean....

There are so many more important things to care about. *shrug* I guess that's why I'm so indifferent

After this is decided (and it essentially already has been), life will go on....and you'll all get over it.........

Aidan Kincaid

24-05-2006 21:54:02

Holy bitchfest batman... The issue is already decided on and no amount of crying on a random MB thread will change that.

After the way most of the people who stayed with the EH behaved during the split to come back here now and expect anything is laughable. But seeing as we aren't Astatines, the DC is allowing them to come back and start over where they left off. Sounds nice and fair to me.

If a company splits up and you burn bridges (read: act like an utter and complete ass[Expletive Deleted F-word]) then the chances of you getting a job back at company A is highly unlikely. And, in the offchance you did, it definitely wouldn't be with the promotions/benefits given to you by company B after the split.

Either way the decision is more or less final. Let's be done with it and close this topic.

Oberst

24-05-2006 22:12:00

You will forgive my frank and candid manner, but if I'm not mistaken one of the points in the DB's petition, which ultimately led to the split, was the reassertion of the DB's presence as a "Sister Organization." If we sought, and gained, that independance and were willing to continue to act as a Sister Organization to the EH, we are still the same club that we were when we emerged 10+ years ago. Drawing upon that conclussion, then stating that those who worked for this organization prior to the EH / DB split, have earned nothing is tantamount to spitting in the faces of those same individuals and all of those in our past. Speak all you want of how we need to honor those we have now, but if we cannot honor the contributions of those who came before, then why should it be believed that those who follow us will be honored?

We were willing to work with Ronin should he accept the terms, he was not. We were willing to continue to fraternize with the EH, they were not. That people had to choose sides in this fracas is unfortunate, but is a reality. A reality based upon friendships that tested those same lines.

Cicero once stated, "History is the witness that testifies to the passing of time; it illumines reality, vitalizes memory, provides guidance in daily life and brings us tidings of antiquity." This is very much the history of the Brotherhood you are willing to disregard so flippantly as not mattering anymore because someone chose the wrong side. Towards the end of the American Civil War, Pres. Lincoln was asked what should be done with the Confederate States. Pres. Lincoln favored light retribution so that the return of the Union would occur with no bad blood and no animosity in the following generations.

Look at this current exodus from the EH as a step closer to the reunification of the Brotherhood, because we lost many parts in the split. As I stated previously, if you are unwilling to accept that they're returning, with their Pre-Split accolades, then I seriously suggest you re-evaluate your affairs.

Muz Ashen

24-05-2006 22:15:26

The vote that passed DOES recognize pre-split ranks and medals.

Halcyon

24-05-2006 22:21:20

The vote that passed DOES recognize pre-split ranks and medals.



Right...however, I think Oberst is talking to the more "agressive" wing of this debate that wished anyone you joined the DB from the EH be given non of their pre-split stuff.

Aidan Kincaid

24-05-2006 22:22:19

Who's unwilling to accept them coming back with pre-split medals/rank? I accept it... I'm just noting that they're very lucky. If this was the other way around would we be getting our new ranks/medals in the EHDB? For some reason I'm thinking no. That's all I was saying in my posts. To my knowledge Sarin wasn't actually around during the split, so he wasn't a part of either sides bashing... one of very few that are currently returning. The rest chose their side and insulted the rest of us for choosing ours.

Anonymous

25-05-2006 00:06:19

Nothing wrong with coming back with pre-split ranks and medals. Is this the same way the EH would treat us? No...but we aren't the EH.

Granted, there are a lot of pissants who talked a lot of smack to members of this club long after we split from the EH, and it sucks that they'll rejoin at a rank they held beforehand. Was I allowed back in the DB at the rank of OBL after I talked all of my smack and got booted out? Nope. Had to start all over again. :'( So I feel the same way as Shadow does in some aspects.

But again, we aren't the EH. Pre-Split Ranks and Medals is the way to go. Absolutely.

Sarin

25-05-2006 00:19:00

Who's unwilling to accept them coming back with pre-split medals/rank? I accept it... I'm just noting that they're very lucky. If this was the other way around would we be getting our new ranks/medals in the EHDB? For some reason I'm thinking no. That's all I was saying in my posts. To my knowledge Sarin wasn't actually around during the split, so he wasn't a part of either sides bashing... one of very few that are currently returning. The rest chose their side and insulted the rest of us for choosing ours.


I had been in the DB for a couple of years prior to the split. I just happened to be in Iraq when it actually happened :(

But anyways, I threw my post up there just to add a little fuel to the fire. For that I apologize. Those of us who have returned over the past year are very fortunate to return to real Dark Brotherhood and we are all appreciative of being amongst friends once again. I have had a great time since returning and I look forward to helping make the DB a better place in the future.

Sildrin

25-05-2006 10:50:17

I agree to Kaek. Sorry, but this is just an online club. No one is dying from any decisions that are made. There are much more important things to take care about. Get a solution or a compromise for this, you can't please everyone.
You think we might endanger the future of the DB? We will adapt, we will survive.

"A compromise is when none of the participants is content." :D

Sil

Baron Zarco

25-05-2006 13:54:31

I have been a member since November 2005.

For what it is worth, organizattions, whether academic, martial arts, legal or the like, rarely honor the accomplishments of another organization. Exclusivity (to whatever degree) is part of what makes any association attractive. While there is, at times, reciprocity that is rarely the case unless a specific agreement to do so governs the parties or umbrella organizations to which they belong. This is precisely so members of any given group know where they stand and their accomplishments vis a vis the standing of the group, are protected. When a group chooses to allow "lateral" hires such as this they risk both upsetting their members and harming their reputation as a group. "Making it up as one goes" is often the most disastrous course of all.

Perhaps the more interesting aspect of this discussion is the different "takes" on this, which lead me to the incendiary comment that follows. It does not surprise me when an abused partner takes the old partner back for whatever reason. An excuse can always be found. The human inability to "cut away" is strong. In America it is so standard as to be laughable. Jerry Springer and others have made fortunes exploiting it. The psychology of the battered partner is interesting indeed. Beware.

Sith Bloodfyre

25-05-2006 17:10:06

"To err is human, to forgive divine." -A. Pope

We're not "taking back abusive partners." We're forgiving friends that we've had arguments with. Everyone argues with friends at some point or another. Sometimes, you have issues that cause a falling out; we had one, and it's been resolved through time and clear heads. There really isn't much more to it than that, and there's not much worth to continuing the debate over something that has already happened. People came back, and they get what they had. That's always been our policy.

Tarax Kor

27-05-2006 03:05:13

We're not "taking back abusive partners."  We're forgiving friends that we've had arguments with.  Everyone argues with friends at some point or another.  Sometimes, you have issues that cause a falling out; we had one, and it's been resolved through time and clear heads. 




Except...we're not their mommies that always forgive them when they [Expletive Deleted F-word] up. Wah wah, bitch bitch, whine whine. They made their choices when they did, they have to live with them.

We need to just keep going forward, and rarely ever look back. If they want to come back to us, they have to catch up, not make us wait for them.

Yes, to err is human. But you know what else is human? Knowing when you [Expletive Deleted F-word]ed up, and taking responsibility and facing up to the consequences of the actions. Yeah, forgiveness is nice and all...but, we're not their mommies, and we're not divine. We're human. :P

If this makes any sense when I wake up, I deserve a medal.

Morgan

27-05-2006 11:18:45

Meh. Well, i'm afraid i've changed my tune. The DB was a sister club. If you go to archive.org and go to subgroups in the urls down the right, it directly calls the DB a "sister organisation" or something. Which means, it never really was part of the EH. Therefor, those who joined the EHDB, which was created after the DB split, well it was thier clone of the original DB. The EH Transfers merely left for a certain amount of time where they formed thier own version of the DB. Meh Bf can explain this better probably. Its not diffrent then some member who was here 7 years ago and left 5 years ago, and came back today.

Tarax Kor

27-05-2006 18:36:30

Morg...you just found that out today? What the hell?


And...no need to give information out on it...most of the people who've posted in this topic knew that already. :P


Still...better late than never, I guess. :P

Morgan

27-05-2006 20:01:11

I thought it was a division like the Tie Corpse is :P

Andan Taldrya Marshall

28-05-2006 11:17:44

One of the main reasons why we split was that Ronin had stopped treating the DB as a sister organization and had started treating it like a subgroup like the TC. That's what led to all the other abuses that we cited in the letter that was sent to Ronin and started the split.

DStephens

29-05-2006 02:41:32

This is coming from one the EH converts. When the split happened I stayed with the Eh because most of my friends stayed. Over time I started seeing the things that FF and others had seen and left for, so I put in my resignation and left the EH. At the same I time I filled out a join form for the DJB and put down that I was a member of the DB prior to the split and asked for my DJK rank and medals that were on teh database pre split to be readded to the DB. Note I requested but had prepared for it to be denied, long story short I had my medals and rank reinstated. As for my opinion on the matter I believe that if you were a member before the split then your rank and medals on the day of the split should be reinstated. In other words if you were a GRD with a DC on the day of the split but were a DJM with a DS and ED with the DC now in the EH, you shouldnt get it. Why? Because you earned those by working for another group, the only thing youve done for the DJB got you a GRD promo and that DC not the other stuff. I mean get a grip, if you earned all that there you can surely earn it here, shouldnt be hard.

DS

Troutrooper

30-05-2006 17:49:45

As I am the most recent EHDB transfer, I have kept a close eye on this topic. Now that my transfer is complete, I want to add my two credits. I realize the issue has been settled, but, as y'all will soon find out, I speak my mind anyway :D

Although I tried (unsuccessfully) to finagle some of my EHDB honors, I think that the policy instituted is the fairest. The policy recognizes members' contributions to this club (the DB/DJB). Plain and simple. Asking pre-Split members to start over is insulting to both the individual and the DJB. It implies that their work done for the pre-Split DB is worthless, and attempts to disassociate itself with the pre-Split DB. We cannot change the club's past nor should we. In fact, contrary to the sentiment expoused by some in this thread, the DB was in the EH much longer than its been separate from the EH. Learn history! :D

Several people have reasoned that EHDBers should rejoin as APPs because the EHDB and the DJB are completely separate clubs and allowing direct transfers would be akin to allowing SVers or RSers to transfer directly over. In a word, no. The DJB diverged from the EH, not from any other group. Had we split from the RS or SV, then the policy would be for former members of that group and not the EH. The DJB and EHDB are separate clubs now, but they were one club before. Again, this seems like people are trying to deny the club's existence as a subgroup/part of the EH.

Along those lines, the sister organization arguments are completely non-sensical and would only apply if an EHer from another subgroup requested their rank be transferred here. The work and effort pre-Split members did for the DB should be recognized by the current DB because it is still the same club; effort and work done for other EH subgroups, obviously, should not be. Yet another argument centered around trying to disassociate the current DB from the pre-Split DB.

In my opinion, the most persuasive argument for forcing all EHDB transfers to join at the bottom of the ladder is, as the saying someone mentioned goes, we made our bed and we should be forced to lie in it. That is exactly the mentality that many EH transfers want to escape: a cruel, almost sadistic, unbending, uncaring, and unforgiving viciousness. Certainly, DJBers who want to transfer to the EH are forced to join at the bottom, but 1. no transfer has ever happened; and 2. being in the DJB is expressly forbidden under EH law, but being in the EH is not a crime in DJB law. The DJB leaders have shown themselves to be far superior to the EH leaders, and yet people want them to institute policies that Astatine and Ronin would enact. Doesn't make much sense.

Tis good to see such passion and devotion to this club, but let's keep it positive. The choices we made during the Split are our own and quite personal, and I would kindly ask that people refrain from making generalizations regarding them.

Morgan

31-05-2006 13:31:49

Errm :-P

Guess thats sorted then :-P

Aghasett

31-05-2006 18:44:02

EHers should be allowed their ranks *UNLESS* they were members of EH Intel; in which case they should be exterminated with extreme prejudice....

j/k TT ;p

Aidan Kincaid

01-06-2006 01:51:21

Someone make with the closing... any further argument is such pointless bitchery now.

[EDIT] Done.