ALL OUT BATTLE
Rannik
20-03-2006 21:15:24
who do you think would win?
Vader, Revan, Durge, Maul, Sidius, Yoda, Obi-wan, Luke, Greivous, Ventress or Malak...
post your answer here....
My vote goes to Durge, he has all these weapons and stuff. Plus hes trained in lightsaber combat.
but its also a tie between him and greivous...
Halcyon
20-03-2006 23:40:20
Didn't Obi-Wan beat both Durge and Greivous? Neither of those two would last long. Same with Ventress. Maul would be out-classed as well. You also have Malak listed twice, but he won't go far at all. You'll be left with "real" masters, or closest approximations (Revan, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke and Yoda). I'm also assuming each person would be in their "prime"...so...hmm...I think Yoda in his prime would destroy everyone, heh
Revenant
21-03-2006 07:39:19
Are we talking about Vader pre-suit or Vader with the suit? If it's pre-suit Vader, he'd be a pretty strong contender. Might not win, but he'd kick a lot of ass on the way.
Halc, I'm not sure what you were reading, but he's only listed Malak once. I think Obi Wan would be well and truly bitch slapped by Revan...
Revenant
21-03-2006 07:40:16
Sorry Halc, didn't realise he'd edited the post. My bad... :$
Malik
21-03-2006 09:56:10
people are forgetting that both the jedi and sith have had 4000 years to develop their fighting skills since revan so I doubt that revan would last long.
Muz Ashen
21-03-2006 10:23:31
Vader: Pwned by Kenobi...and later, by a barely trained farm-boy. Eventually killed by Palpatine.
Durge: Pwned by Kenobi, but finally killed by Anakin.
Maul: Pwned by Kenobi once, then killed by Kenobi on Tatooine, later.
Sidious: Pwned by Windu, killed by Vader.
Yoda: Pwned by Sidious, killed by indigestion.
Kenobi: Suicide.
Luke: pwned by Vader, then Pwns Vader.
Greivous: pwned by windu, then killed by Kenobi
Ventress: pwned repeatedly by Vader.
Malak: Killed by Revan
Revan: Pwned by Malak (via starship strike)
so...setting aside Malak & Revan (as old republic guys, they're kinda out of date), we have a pretty simple equation.
Everyone is either pwned by Kenobi, or pwned by someone Kenobi pwnd.
Welshman
21-03-2006 10:52:33
Kenobi without a shadow of doubt. According to the EP3 novel one of the greatest blade masters in the Jedi temple at the time and also very powerful in the Force, definately more powerful then Anakin/Vader
Raistline
21-03-2006 11:40:29
Baron Zarco
21-03-2006 14:23:04
I agree with Muz' logic. Further, in an all-out melee with the parties listed Obi-Wan would find a way to play combatants off against one another. He's tricky like that. Hey, that gets me thinking. All the talk about "point of view" and relative "truth" and "not dealing in "absolutes," old Ben sounds like a Sith. Where would one get all that philosophical flexibility? To quote big daddy, "Not from a Jedi." Ha ha.
Rannik
22-03-2006 06:53:22
yal also have to think Revan was strong in the foce. maybe even stronger than Kenobi. but Yoda will probly win, but he is getting old, so if he couldnt beat Sidious what makes yal think he could beat anyone else?
Andan Taldrya Marshall
23-03-2006 10:52:13
if he couldnt beat Sidious what makes yal think he could beat anyone else?
You make it sound like Sidious was a wimp. Remember that he killed two Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds and held his own against Windu, one of the most respected swordsmen of the Order. The question of is Sidious actually lost to Windu or he let himself loose to draw Anakin to the Dark Side has been debated on and on to no end, but you have to respect the skill that he displayed in the part of the fight preceding that.
Sidious was no amature when it came to lightsaber combat. Who do you think trained Darth Maul (who got offed by an uppity Padawan who was most likely drawing a little on the Dark Side during the end of that fight, that's just a personal theory though)?
Baron Zarco
23-03-2006 20:41:07
Sidious was the man.
His only flaw (and it is a biggie no doubt) was that he underestimated the power of love.
Rannik
27-03-2006 18:54:43
Love in the Star Wars Universe is not good. And because of that they REALLY messed up Vader, and Sidius is an ok Sith Lord and all, but i cant stand him.
Baron Zarco
27-03-2006 23:27:58
Love did not "mess up" Vader. Vader's own lack of vision and committment to Padme "messed him up."
Anakin's "love" for Padme caused him to kill her by breaking her heart. If one proceeds from the premise that one intends the natural consequences of one's acts, Anakin, in fact, murdered her.
Anakin pursued a course that any reasonable person would have concluded would have resulted in Padme's death. He even force-choked her when she had come to help. They could have run away together then.
Even if one assumes that Anakin was acting in her best interests in pursuing the legendary wisdom of Darth Plaugeus (sp?), why did he continue on that course when Palpatine revealed to him that he did not, in fact, have the knowledge? Any man in love would have avoided the whole situation but again, assuming arguendo that he could not, why did Anakin not then kill Palpatine and escape with Padme? Why did he not escape with Padme even if he could not have killed him? Lie and leave. Go pursue your fate with the woman that makes you complete not with some aged freak that speaks in riddles and completely derails your life.
The bottom line is that when one is in love he does not take every step he can to not only sabotage the relationship but also to kill one's lover. It is all about priorities. If you claim to love then you put your love first. If you cannot do that then save everyone the trouble.
Frankly, Anakin, and thus Vader, is a punk a** b***h that played himself. He has no right to talk about "love" unless we are talking about the love he showed for his son years later. That I can buy but, love for Padme, hell no.
By the way, love seemed to have worked for Han and Leia and Luke and Mara. Oh yeah, those are not canon. That says more about Lucas than love.
Sorry for the rant but I grew up idolizing Vader. He was rough and tough and, at a time when I needed strength I emulated him and my other role model Spock. Vader turns out to be a crying, mewling patsy and Spock is off fraternizing with the Romulans these days. It is a good thing I do not need role models anymore!
Lokasena
02-04-2006 08:25:37
Love did not "mess up" Vader. Vader's own lack of vision and committment to Padme "messed him up."
Anakin's "love" for Padme caused him to kill her by breaking her heart. If one proceeds from the premise that one intends the natural consequences of one's acts, Anakin, in fact, murdered her.
Anakin pursued a course that any reasonable person would have concluded would have resulted in Padme's death. He even force-choked her when she had come to help. They could have run away together then.
Even if one assumes that Anakin was acting in her best interests in pursuing the legendary wisdom of Darth Plaugeus (sp?), why did he continue on that course when Palpatine revealed to him that he did not, in fact, have the knowledge? Any man in love would have avoided the whole situation but again, assuming arguendo that he could not, why did Anakin not then kill Palpatine and escape with Padme? Why did he not escape with Padme even if he could not have killed him? Lie and leave. Go pursue your fate with the woman that makes you complete not with some aged freak that speaks in riddles and completely derails your life.
The bottom line is that when one is in love he does not take every step he can to not only sabotage the relationship but also to kill one's lover. It is all about priorities. If you claim to love then you put your love first. If you cannot do that then save everyone the trouble.
Frankly, Anakin, and thus Vader, is a punk a** b***h that played himself. He has no right to talk about "love" unless we are talking about the love he showed for his son years later. That I can buy but, love for Padme, hell no.
By the way, love seemed to have worked for Han and Leia and Luke and Mara. Oh yeah, those are not canon. That says more about Lucas than love.
Sorry for the rant but I grew up idolizing Vader. He was rough and tough and, at a time when I needed strength I emulated him and my other role model Spock. Vader turns out to be a crying, mewling patsy and Spock is off fraternizing with the Romulans these days. It is a good thing I do not need role models anymore!
What's wrong with Romulans??? They're the coolest guys in Star Trek...!
Plus Spock did it, just to piss off his old man
(Sarek, not Picard...!)
So there....
Rannik
02-04-2006 12:14:15
FYI, this is star wars not star trek.....
Muz Ashen
02-04-2006 14:08:27
for the reference, Lucas' wife left him.
He still loves his kids.
You can read a lot into the emotions and relationships of Lucas by looking at these movies, even if that is not what he originally intended. All work bears the resonance of the craftsman.
RevengeX
02-04-2006 15:18:20
I personally think Luke might be able to beat these guys with his "New Jedi Order" philosophies. Because Luke can draw upon both the "light" and "dark" sides of the Force, he's probably stronger than the other guys that you have listed.
Scyrone
02-04-2006 20:02:38
Or he just drew up the force itself.
For Maul, he was killed by Obi-Wan, then later killed by him again on Tatooine, then later killed by Vader (but Vader had to stab himself to do so), then later killed again by the whole Jedi Academy on Yavin 4 (yes, it took the whole Jedi Academy.
Maul: Came back to life 3 times.
Rannik
07-04-2006 19:39:37
when did maul come back to life?
Aabsdu
08-04-2006 20:56:41
I remember a comic with clones of Maul attacking Vader as a test by Sidious, but that's the only time I can think of that I've heard of another Maul.
Also, Yoda would kick ass. In my opinion, I feel me wasn't giving his best during the duels with Dooku and Sidious, though the latter tired him out greatly and flung him into a wall first
Rannik
09-04-2006 20:11:21
yeah i think that wall tired yoda out. plus all i can remember are comics with vader vs. boba, and the old SW comics....
Rannik
19-04-2006 19:09:25
on top of that i found 2 comics with Maul in it, but no clones of him.....
Aegor Raas
19-04-2006 21:30:57
I certainly thought that Sidious vs. Yoda deserved much more screen time... I wish you saw them dueling with lightsabers more before ascending into the Senate Chamber... I know that their strength was the use of the Force, but they were both good swordsmen as well.
Rannik
20-04-2006 11:55:44
yeah, i do agree with that. i mean force fights do get boring after awhile. like the battle with Anikan and Obi-Wan, that was good....
Aegor Raas
20-04-2006 19:43:42
Yes, there was force dueling, but also lightsaber dueling. They opened up a door with Yoda in AOTC, I just wished they had really made the fight between Palp and Yoda (the two leaders...) a bit longer.
Scyrone
23-04-2006 00:29:42
I agree, Yoda and Palp deserved more than what they had. If they had only taken out all the love scenes.
Rannik
27-04-2006 19:00:45
what about the Dooku fight and the Greivous fight?
Scyrone
29-04-2006 00:37:41
Dooku wipped Grevious, in the cartoons. Grievous isnt force sensative.
Rannik
29-04-2006 13:48:28
true, but in the EP.III book Greivous gave Kenobi way more of a struggle, and Dooku was way to easy in EP.III
Scorpius
01-05-2006 17:09:59
1. On the issue of cloning/coming back to life making someone more powerful: A lot of Sith Lords (and even some Jedi) managed to preserve their spirits to be reawakened and/or cloned. Palpatine did it and almost pwned the New Republic again.
2. Yes, Yoda and Palp needed more screen time in that fight.
3. On Dooku vs. Greivous--- Dooku knocked out Kenobi without any effort. He was also one of the best lightsaber duelists in the galaxy at that time and had been trained by Yoda in the Force, himself training Qui-Gon, who trained Kenobi, who trained Anakin. He held his own against Yoda in EP II. On the issue of "losing easily" in EP III, bear in mind that Dooku's goal was NOT to kill Anakin Skywalker; it was to draw out his anger and turn Anakin to the Dark Side. Dooku was SUPPOSED to lose to Anakin; the plan, in his mind, was to lose and put the Dark Side in Anakin, and then be taken prisoner, only to later be released when Sidious became Emperor. When Palpatine instead ordered Anakin to kill Dooku, he was, naturally, quite surprised.
With all that said, there is no doubt in my mind that Dooku would pwn Grievous.
4. Muz's logic is the best.
when did maul come back to life?
He came back to life but that was non-canon to most
Rannik
03-05-2006 14:40:09
non-canon? All i know is that Vader got wooped for awhile by Maul, but Vader killed him...
Rannik
06-05-2006 18:12:12
Yeah, i think thats the pic i seen the other day also.....
Aidan Kincaid
06-05-2006 21:41:35
people are forgetting that both the jedi and sith have had 4000 years to develop their fighting skills since revan so I doubt that revan would last long.
Except that during the Sith War the Jedi arts were more powerful and deadly. There were many more Masters of each Form and their were a lot of Forms more powerful than what we have today most of which were lost. I'd say a Jedi from the Sith War would be better with a lightsaber than these newbs
Rannik
06-05-2006 21:43:54
True, but you have to remember there is better defense forms now than there were then. There were more offensive forms then, than now...
Muz Ashen
07-05-2006 02:12:27
Actually, the modern forms are not more defensive.
they're the same. The forms have not changed much over the years...only the dedication of the practitioners.
and since the modern jedi were more busy being policemen, than duelling each other to survive.... They'd all die against the old schoolers...
that's why so many jedi died on geonosis, and why so many died over the course of the clone wars, or in order 66....
They'd not have lost so many people against troopers back during the Sith War.
Ricco Vao
26-07-2006 07:43:10
REVAN!
Remdan Tyranius
26-07-2006 18:36:53
I think it would all come down to Revan and Yoda then I don't know who would win, it would be a pretty tough, intense match.
It doesn't matter how strong Revan was, Yoda had 900 years to refine his technique. I think that after that long, he could school Revan.
Shirai
27-07-2006 23:00:48
dont judge everything on time experience, Anakin could have killed Yoda. Have you played KOTOR.
Arcadian
28-07-2006 13:42:57
I'd say Yoda, well actully i'm not 100% sure....hmmm
Kelric
28-07-2006 22:01:57
The "He-pwned-him-so-he'd-pwn-them" model doesn't really work in a battle royale of characters in their primes. Yoda, in his prime (~500 years old) would have been vastly superior to all. 500 years is more than enough time to perfect your skill. Even though his midichlorian count is third to only Anakin and Sidious, midichlorians are only a measure of potential.
In a heads up fight between Yoda and Sidious, the result was a stalemate. However, Yoda had already lived 95% of his entire lifespan. Age was a huge factor in that fight.
Anakin, with the highest count, would have easily been the most powerful if not for the whole Mustafar tragedy which forced him to spend his best years in the suit.
Luke, at one point a light and dark master, was also a top candidate, however his lack of actual Force instruction may have kept him from the top. Yet, his midichlorian count is still lower than the other three.
Obi-Wan defeated Anakin, so what do you think Yoda would have done to him? Besides, Anakin was raw talent. That was why he lost on Mustafar: The Force wasn't with him as strongly as it was for Obi-Wan. If he had trained for as long as Obi without the whole Mustafarian BBQ, he would have been able to take anyone apart. Revan included.
Oh, and I've beaten KOTOR several times.
Arcadian
29-07-2006 10:32:55
I dunno Kal Anakin may have been poweful but that's really all he was, he wasn't as proficient in the force, and he was extreamley cocky.
That's what I'm saying. If he had trained for years and years and years, like most Jedi, he would have been the ultimate in Force Mastery.
Wes Biriuk
03-08-2006 00:19:51
Obi-wan had a good head on him. He was also the most proficient master of Soresu at the temple. He was a defensive genius. He would sit out the first few rounds until he HAD to fight. the others would be tired, yet he would be fresh. When fighting Obi-wan would let his opponent drill into him until he felt his foe weaken, then would strike him down.
Yoda was an extremely good duelist and was very powerful in the force. He and Sidious would be the best force-conjurers in that group.
If I had to decide, I would tip Yoda defeating Sidious, with Obi and Vader fighting it out, Obi placing ahead due to his defensive ways.
Yoda would win.
Just cause Obi had great defense and a good head on him doesn't mean that he would win. Like I said, one way or another, he'd get killed. I have no doubts about the fact that Yoda could kill them all, or that any of the others are skilled and great, but people think way too much about Obi-Wan's defense winning a fight for him. He got owned by Dooku. The fact that he got lucky with Ani doesn't make him god.
Just cause Obi had great defense and a good head on him doesn't mean that he would win. Like I said, one way or another, he'd get killed. I have no doubts about the fact that Yoda could kill them all, or that any of the others are skilled and great, but people think way too much about Obi-Wan's defense winning a fight for him. He got owned by Dooku. The fact that he got lucky with Ani doesn't make him god.
Obi-wan had a lot more then a great defense his lightsaber style was actually unique.
While his main form was Soresu he often added in his near mastery of Ataru and skills in Shi-cho giving him a near perfect defense and a powerful offense. This was why he was able to beat Grievous in saber combat because he could not adapt to Kenobi’s lightsaber form.
Obi-wan also did a lot better against Dooku once he became a master as you noticed Dooku only had advantage in knowledge of the force.
I have noticed your standing that Obi-wan only got lucky against Anakin and while your entitled to your own opinion I have to disagree. Obi-wan was the greatest lightsaber duelist in the order and had more knowledge in the force then Anakin who just relied on his raw power and he often made mistakes which Obi-wan would have capitalized on and defeated him. I think Anakin was the lucky one because Obi-wan was not trying to and could not bring himself to kill him.
If you remember, Obi sought high ground. He knew that Ani would try something flashy and stupid and, as much as you might not like it, meant to do what he did. He thought Vader was dead after he left mustafar. He didn't know that Palpy plugged him into an iron lung suit. When he did, he freaked out. Ani was surprisingly strong for Obi and probably could have killed him if he hadn't been a dumbf*ck.
Raken
14-08-2006 04:31:40
The "He-pwned-him-so-he'd-pwn-them" model doesn't really work in a battle royale of characters in their primes. Yoda, in his prime (~500 years old) would have been vastly superior to all. 500 years is more than enough time to perfect your skill. Even though his midichlorian count is third to only Anakin and Sidious, midichlorians are only a measure of potential.
In a heads up fight between Yoda and Sidious, the result was a stalemate. However, Yoda had already lived 95% of his entire lifespan. Age was a huge factor in that fight.
Anakin, with the highest count, would have easily been the most powerful if not for the whole Mustafar tragedy which forced him to spend his best years in the suit.
Luke, at one point a light and dark master, was also a top candidate, however his lack of actual Force instruction may have kept him from the top. Yet, his midichlorian count is still lower than the other three.
It wasn't a stalemate, however. Read the Episode III novel. One of the most shocking revelations to come from that work is Yoda's own admission that he simply couldn't beat Sidious. He mentions how while the Jedi rested on their laurels, the Sith were advancing their techniques with offense in mind. As was stated earlier in this thread, the Jedi had moved away from rigorous combat and training at this point. And if you guys are getting your Midichlorian counts from SuperShadow--stop. Everyone in the world knows the site is a hoax.
Exactly. So, if nothing else, Sidious would be smart, cut Obi to ribbons, and be back in time to save Vader from Yoda. Sidious, more powerful than Yoda, plus the one who, according to the MOVIES, had the highest midichlorian count and was made by the Force itself, would have won. Sidious would be owning Yoda while Vader came in for the kill. Even if Vader proved unsuccessful, Sidious would have killed Yoda. Vader's training would resume, he would become powerful, defeat Sidious, rule the Empire, take and apprentice, probably his kid, and make him another perfect Sith... do you see where I'm going?
Light gets owned sometimes. Deal with it.
It wasn't a stalemate, however. Read the Episode III novel. One of the most shocking revelations to come from that work is Yoda's own admission that he simply couldn't beat Sidious. He mentions how while the Jedi rested on their laurels, the Sith were advancing their techniques with offense in mind. As was stated earlier in this thread, the Jedi had moved away from rigorous combat and training at this point. And if you guys are getting your Midichlorian counts from SuperShadow--stop. Everyone in the world knows the site is a hoax.
See that is one thing.
I have read the Ep 3 novel and personally I don't find it to be very accurate. I think that line is misleading I think it was supposed to refer more told the orders stagnation of the jedi code while the sith adapted. Basically it was saying the order had not evolved and was not prepared for what the sith had become not that yoda couldn't beat sidious because if you watch the movie yoda is overpowering palps until he fell. It was a stalemate yoda fled because he no longer had his saber and clones were on the way. Remember that book was not written by Lucas.
If you remember, Obi sought high ground. He knew that Ani would try something flashy and stupid and, as much as you might not like it, meant to do what he did. He thought Vader was dead after he left mustafar. He didn't know that Palpy plugged him into an iron lung suit. When he did, he freaked out. Ani was surprisingly strong for Obi and probably could have killed him if he hadn't been a dumbf*ck.
Obi-wan was using a tactical advantage like any smart lightsaber duelist would. Obi-wan could not kill personally Anakin as you saw in Ep 3 but he did think He had died on Mustafar. He was later informed by Qui-gons spirit that he was alive but I wouldn't say being surprised is freaked out. Anakin can all the natural strength in the force he wants be without the knowledge of how to use it effectively it doesn't matter. He was way too driven by his emotions which caused him to make mistakes that Obi-wan capitalized on. Shear Power doesn't make one unstoppable.
.
Raken
15-08-2006 18:35:46
See that is one thing.
I have read the Ep 3 novel and personally I don't find it to be very accurate. I think that line is misleading I think it was supposed to refer more told the orders stagnation of the jedi code while the sith adapted. Basically it was saying the order had not evolved and was not prepared for what the sith had become not that yoda couldn't beat sidious because if you watch the movie yoda is overpowering palps until he fell. It was a stalemate yoda fled because he no longer had his saber and clones were on the way. Remember that book was not written by Lucas.
Obi-wan was using a tactical advantage like any smart lightsaber duelist would. Obi-wan could not kill personally Anakin as you saw in Ep 3 but he did think He had died on Mustafar. He was later informed by Qui-gons spirit that he was alive but I wouldn't say being surprised is freaked out. Anakin can all the natural strength in the force he wants be without the knowledge of how to use it effectively it doesn't matter. He was way too driven by his emotions which caused him to make mistakes that Obi-wan capitalized on. Shear Power doesn't make one unstoppable.
.
Books are canon. They're approved by Lucas' people. The author is assigned the task of covering the story. They do nothing which is not sanctioned.
Revenge of the Sith by Matthew Stover
Hardcover, First Edition
From the fight between Yoda and Sidious...
"Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth; that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just--
didn't--
have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.
He had lost before he was born.
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore iteself, in preperation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new.
While the Jedi--
The Jedi had spent that same millenium training to refight the last war.
The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?
The end came with astonishing suddenness.
The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength. The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow--
Half a second too slow.
The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.
He fell a long way."
______________________________________________________
That's pretty clear. It's obvious the author very carefully laid that out to show the advantage of the Sith and how even Yoda realizes as powerful as he is, he is not powerful enough.
Obi-wan was using a tactical advantage like any smart lightsaber duelist would. Obi-wan could not kill personally Anakin as you saw in Ep 3 but he did think He had died on Mustafar. He was later informed by Qui-gons spirit that he was alive but I wouldn't say being surprised is freaked out. Anakin can all the natural strength in the force he wants be without the knowledge of how to use it effectively it doesn't matter. He was way too driven by his emotions which caused him to make mistakes that Obi-wan capitalized on. Shear Power doesn't make one unstoppable.
.
Regardless of tactics, strategy, and whatnot, Anakin would have won had he not jumped. He could have jumped two feet onto the bank of the lava river and fought his way up. He already had Obi-Wan tired, panting and all, and was still good to go. It wasn't Obi's smarts, it was Ani's lack thereof. And the fact that he could not kill him personally would have added to the fact that Ani was winning.
Hel-Pa Sklib
16-08-2006 00:47:49
I think that Obi-Wan is just way too defensive, and would, as mentioned before, use his natural wit more than anything to win.
Arcadian
16-08-2006 15:45:51
Obi was smart ya, but ther's more to winning than wit
Exactly my point.(Oh god, I'm agreeing with Arc)
Anyone who thinks that a fight of any kind can be won just cuz one guy is smarter than the other plays way too many video games. The truth is, Obi took a big risk, stood on a hilltop, and got lucky. Had Ani not jumped, his raw power, anger at Obi, and fury at Padme turning against him would have allowed him to rip Obi apart, even if he did pass out afterward. The Emperor would have found a passed out winner, not a crispy Sith who had just been pwned.
Arcadian
17-08-2006 14:50:32
So there ya go
, and I can't believe you agreed with me either Kal
.
Books are canon. They're approved by Lucas' people. The author is assigned the task of covering the story. They do nothing which is not sanctioned.
If you really want to go into the books maybe you should read the part about Mace and Obi-wans discussion on his lightsaber technique.
As I remember this was a all out battle therefore the sith would fight each other too so there would be no teaming up that plus the fact there are a few more extremely powerful masters like Revan.
In this kind of fight Obi-wan has a good chance of being one of the last standing while Anakin would get likely get ganged up by Revan and Obi-wan who both being genius tacticians would have seen the need to get rid of Anakin. In fact it is highly possible that Revan was just as strong as Anakin anyway since we know he was one of the strongest force users the galaxy has ever known.
My personal opinion based on facts that Obi-wan would beat Anakin is still my stance and it makes little difference if you disagree as you are entitled to your own opinion
Syrus Korodin
19-08-2006 12:06:58
I would have to say that Palpatine has an advantage. He would just blend up a force storm and wtfpwn everyone in the arena.
Arcadian
19-08-2006 15:07:17
If you really want to go into the books maybe you should read the part about Mace and Obi-wans discussion on his lightsaber technique.
As I remember this was a all out battle therefore the sith would fight each other too so there would be no teaming up that plus the fact there are a few more extremely powerful masters like Revan.
In this kind of fight Obi-wan has a good chance of being one of the last standing while Anakin would get likely get ganged up by Revan and Obi-wan who both being genius tacticians would have seen the need to get rid of Anakin. In fact it is highly possible that Revan was just as strong as Anakin anyway since we know he was one of the strongest force users the galaxy has ever known.
My personal opinion based on facts that Obi-wan would beat Anakin is still my stance and it makes little difference if you disagree as you are entitled to your own opinion
Dude that's so true it's not even funny.....and I agree about Obi pwning Anakin.
I would have to say that Palpatine has an advantage. He would just blend up a force storm and wtfpwn everyone in the arena.
Um..........ok if you say so....
I would have to say that Palpatine has an advantage. He would just blend up a force storm and wtfpwn everyone in the arena.
If he did that, he'd kill himself too. He can't fully control them, remember?
Arcadian
20-08-2006 01:56:53
Dun DUn DUN...erm sorry, anyways Kals right
Syrus Korodin
20-08-2006 12:18:23
He can control them to some extent. besides, he could make one from a distance. The one time when he got killed by his own storm was because Luke and his pals were interfering.
In an all-out battle, he would be engaged in lightsaber combat. That would indicate that they'd be ten yards or closer to each other. Not only would he have no time to conjure one, he would be unable to get far enough away from it to live.
Raken
25-08-2006 20:53:27
If you really want to go into the books maybe you should read the part about Mace and Obi-wans discussion on his lightsaber technique.
As I remember this was a all out battle therefore the sith would fight each other too so there would be no teaming up that plus the fact there are a few more extremely powerful masters like Revan.
In this kind of fight Obi-wan has a good chance of being one of the last standing while Anakin would get likely get ganged up by Revan and Obi-wan who both being genius tacticians would have seen the need to get rid of Anakin. In fact it is highly possible that Revan was just as strong as Anakin anyway since we know he was one of the strongest force users the galaxy has ever known.
My personal opinion based on facts that Obi-wan would beat Anakin is still my stance and it makes little difference if you disagree as you are entitled to your own opinion
I'm only talking about the part where you stated it was a stalemate between Yoda and Palpatine. The context of this thread as a "battle royale" could go anywhich way and we could debate it to world's end with no actual "correct" answer. All we can do is offer opinions. But saying Yoda's battle with Sidious was a stalemate isn't debatable. In the book, as I quoted, Yoda himself, written by Matt Stover whose entire story was scrutinized and approved by Lucas officials, says plainly he did not have what it took to beat Sidious. The author has permission to portray it this way, the book is canonical, and the scene is spelled out in black and white, therefore, Sidious beat Yoda. This is all I'm saying. Now, if you refuse to recognize anything but the films as canon, as some do, then that's another story and open to interpretation.
I'm only talking about the part where you stated it was a stalemate between Yoda and Palpatine. The context of this thread as a "battle royale" could go anywhich way and we could debate it to world's end with no actual "correct" answer. All we can do is offer opinions. But saying Yoda's battle with Sidious was a stalemate isn't debatable. In the book, as I quoted, Yoda himself, written by Matt Stover whose entire story was scrutinized and approved by Lucas officials, says plainly he did not have what it took to beat Sidious. The author has permission to portray it this way, the book is canonical, and the scene is spelled out in black and white, therefore, Sidious beat Yoda. This is all I'm saying. Now, if you refuse to recognize anything but the films as canon, as some do, then that's another story and open to interpretation.
I personally do not truly recognize the books of the films as cannon however that does not extend to the other books. In my opinion Star wars is a set of movies and I will recognize the movies as what Star wars is supposed to be as displayed by Lucas himself. The Ep3 book no matter how many times it was looked over was not written by Lucas like the movie was and because of this I find the book to be more like if I were to go watch the movie and write a book in my opinion of what happened and then have Lucas look it over. I prefer my source of information to be from the Real movies not someone else’s views and in the movies the battle is a stalemate in fact had Yoda not fallen and if their were no clones on the way to back Sidious up I have no doubts Yoda would have emerged victorious even if it had been a very long battle.
Quote the book all you want but it will never change the real battle that was displayed in the films made by Lucas.
Sarin
26-08-2006 11:42:44
I personally do not truly recognize the books of the films as cannon however that does not extend to the other books.
If any books are going to be considered Canon, the Movie Novelizations would be first on the list. Stover repeatedly stated that George Lucas edited and deleted several passages in the novel. If Lucas and his representatives chose to leave in the section where Yoda admits he does not have what it takes to defeat the Sith, then it is just about as Canon as we can get.
But, even without the EPIII novelization, it is still apparent that Yoda "Just does not have what it takes to beat Palpatine". This is why Yoda never goes back after Palpatine and this is why Yoda goes into hiding. If Yoda had what it takes he would of gone back. Instead, Yoda and Obi put all their chips on Luke and train Luke in a new way (no indoctrination from birth on in the Jedi Order).
Anyways, a discussion like this can be debated until we are blue in the face, BUT I have to side with Raken. Ive watched the movie, Ive read the novel, and I find them both to convey the same message. Palpatine 1, Yoda 0.
Muz Ashen
26-08-2006 19:06:10
Humility and demoralization, for the win.
If you were a badass warrior, and dedicated to 'peace', and I was equally badass and I wtfmurdered everyone you ever met for the past 200 years, I think I'd have a bloody advantage.
Had Yoda known Palpy was a sith prior to him being able to execute order 66, I firmly think that palpy and Yoda would have annihilated each other.
I would like those that think the battle was not a stalemate to watch this.
Clicky
Now I will point out a few things
First Sidious tries to run like a coward and look at his face it shows he is defiantly afraid of yoda. In fact I'd be surprised if any sith or dark jedi of this timeline was not afraid of yoda he is the grandmaster of the jedi order and the most badass jedi in the galaxy.
If so powerful you are, why leave?
Second he overpowers Sidious in lightsaber locks multiple times and their can be no doubt who was the greater saber duelist as palps apparently loses or quits trying to fight him with his lightsaber.
Third when it comes to Palps throwing the senate platforms you will notice they have repulsors and he is higher therefore he can use gravity to basically drop them at yoda. Here yoda not only stops one of these platforms but throws it back against gravity a feat of extraordinary power that made Sidious mildly freak out.
Forth the lightning battle even though it appears that yoda is being over powered you can tell Sidious is putting everything he has into that lightning and guess what Yoda turns it back on him and reverses the power. You can clearly see that Sidious is seriously freaked out and was afraid by his face every time yoda gets in close and stops his lightning.
The battle ends in a stalemate as they are both thrown back by the blast of force power the only difference is that yoda fell further. Yoda fled because he no longer had his lightsaber and with the clones on the way Sidious would escape before he could get back up to him. The only reason this battle did not end in yoda’s favor was on constraints of time before help arrived for Sidious.
Also like Muz said Yoda had to be hurting from losing all the jedi and this played a major factor in his ability to fight.
I have no doubts that had this battle not had such restraints been in place Sidious would have been defeated and Yoda would have likely survived.
One last point if you read the book it is almost like reading and watching 2 separate battles because the only barely resemble each other and in my opinion the TRUE battle was in the movie made by Lucas himself.
Baron Zarco
27-08-2006 10:35:48
That all still begs the question of why Yoda never went after him later. The answer of course,is that the movies were reverese engineered but, in terms of the story as it was ultimately written, f it, the Jedi, including Yoda were totally and positively owned. You can make excuses for Yoda all day but he still got his ass beat. On any given day that can happen to anyone. Still, the day that was important in the movies, Yoda lost.
That all still begs the question of why Yoda never went after him later. The answer of course,is that the movies were reverese engineered but, in terms of the story as it was ultimately written, f it, the Jedi, including Yoda were totally and positively owned. You can make excuses for Yoda all day but he still got his ass beat. On any given day that can happen to anyone. Still, the day that was important in the movies, Yoda lost.
I am only trying to point out the battle did not end with victory for either side.
In the end of the battle yes Yoda did have to leave because he could no longer attack the Emperor therefor the battle is a stalemate and not a real victory for either side because yoda and palps both survive.
Yoda lost, though he lived. He failed to save the galaxy from a dark, evil ruler, failed to destroy the Sith, failed to drop the Empire, and failed to win a saber duel. You can make what excuses you want about him training Luke, the fact was he got his ass kicked and was too old to fight anymore, therefore he set Luke up to rematch Sidious. If Yoda had won, then the empire would have died then and there. Had it truly been a stalemate, then the Jedi and Sith would have been evenmatched, which they weren't. Yoda's loss was necessary for every work that takes place after EP3.
Yoda lost, though he lived. He failed to save the galaxy from a dark, evil ruler, failed to destroy the Sith, failed to drop the Empire, and failed to win a saber duel. You can make what excuses you want about him training Luke, the fact was he got his ass kicked and was too old to fight anymore, therefore he set Luke up to rematch Sidious. If Yoda had won, then the empire would have died then and there. Had it truly been a stalemate, then the Jedi and Sith would have been evenmatched, which they weren't. Yoda's loss was necessary for every work that takes place after EP3.
If you look at long term effects yes However I am referign to the battle between palps and yoda only and that that battle was a stalemate or Tie because neither defeated there opponet.
Arcadian
29-08-2006 00:24:58
No, Yoda lost that too. When he made that shockwave at the end of the fight, he knew that had he kept fighting, he would have died. So, he threw in the towel and gave himself the chance to run away.
No, Yoda lost that too. When he made that shockwave at the end of the fight, he knew that had he kept fighting, he would have died. So, he threw in the towel and gave himself the chance to run away.
Yoda did not make a shockwave he channeled the Force lightning back at palps resulting in a blast of force power. Honesty did look like he blew both of them off the platform on purpose? Even Sidious barly hung on.
Nowhere in the movie or even the book does it say he did that on purpose so this is a very weak arguement.
Also Palps was not foolish enough to let Yoda get back to him He would have run and soo far away yoda could not catch him and there were clones on the way to back palps up.
I have a hard time seeing even yoda take on a 1000 clones and th empeor.
Zeron
01-09-2006 09:20:46
the screenplay book says Yoda knew he lost the fight. So he fled
Scorpius
01-09-2006 09:34:07
Yes, Yoda lost, and he knew it. Just listen to the little green guy afterwards:
"Failed I have."
Then he forces himself into exile.
Yes, Yoda lost, and he knew it. Just listen to the little green guy afterwards:
"Failed I have."
Then he forces himself into exile.
Yes yoda did have leave because he could no longer fight Palps that is obivous. My point however is the actual fight was a stalemate and neither yoda or the Emperor won.
Aabsdu
02-09-2006 21:05:02
Yeah, winning would mean the loser dieing, so really neither of them won
The "duel" was a stalemate, cuz no one died. The ultimate "fight" saw the Jedi whooped when Yoda threw in the towel. So yeah, in a way we're both right.
Ricco Vao
21-09-2006 12:01:17
Revan
