Dual Handedness/dual Weapons

The currect DH system is just too complicated and needs to be re-addressed.

Some important things to remember:
- Gotta keep "hands" seperated; the idea of a single ambidexterous skill is just not a good friend to realism. We use, and probably will continue to because it's easy, a 5 point system - one skill split would be 2.5, even when maxed.

- With a lot of stuff around the ACC, the best possible thing we can do is use what we have, not develop new coding to support an idea or project - unless its absolutely necessary. It's like building a house of cards - when you get to the top, you'll only be as successful as your foundation, and even then, it's shaky. That is why the initial DH skill was amended into using the custom slots, because they were already there...it would be good to continue to do that.

- There have been very good ideas about associating stats to DH. While it sounds good on paper; it's not that great of an idea in practice. Repeatedly, folks have referenced the lightsabre points as examples - but the lightsabre is 1 weapon, 1 type. The styles are based around that one weapon. Trying to associate stats to 6 different weapon types and ALL of the sub-sets to each of them would be a complete nightmare and would cause far more confusion than simplicity.


Currently:

It seems that a simpler method can be reachd and I'm suprised that we didn't see it in the beginning - oh well, hindsight and all that.

Two stats; Strong hand and Off-hand. We do not designate right or left, just strong and off - its for the user to decide which is which for them. The hands will dictate their skill with that hand in DH "mode". That is, if a user does not opt to use DH, then their weapon skill (i.e. Sword 5) will be their skill.

When moving into DH mode, that doesn't change. The 'weapon' skill - which we'll call the "root" skill (i.e. Sword 5) - 'becomes' the skill of their strong hand. In single handed mode, we concede strong, off or both - just not with two weapons. In DH mode the root skill defaults to mean strong hand only or both hands on 1 weapon at the same time.

The example we've been using in the mail is the blastsword. Currently, in the compendium, it looks like this:

Blastsword
Skill: Sword

In this system, we'd have to go change all the weapons to incorporate stats for DH use; it may look like this

Blastsword
Skill: Sword

Dual Handed
Skill: Sword 3
Off-Hand: 4


Under the dual handed section, the sword skill relates the minimum points they must have in the root skill while the off-hand skill is the minimum they must possess - in off-hand - to weild two of that weapon at the same time.

More to come...

Opinion questions, Brujah:

1) Should we mark 'every' weapon or just segregate them all into a value? Like Blastsword, Krath War Blade, etc (of similar size, weight or whatever) are all valued the same for DH.

Pro - easier to consolidate instead of marking each weapon. allows for easier addition of weapons in the future.

Con - may have to concede some weapons into a 'category' where they might not wholly fit.


2) Do we want a DH section coded into the CS or leave it as an option via the custom weapons.

Pro - actually, either way is easy; but for the members, having the DH section already there requires no effort on their part to set it up. Yet, with having to add it on their own to the custom area forces them to really try and cultivate their character, by choice.

Con - some people can't leave a space alone, feeling the need to put "something" in there; in the case 1 point will hurt them, not help them.

Waiting these inputs before we move on...

1) Marking every weapon could get a bit redundant, not to mention the n00b's who would complain about different weapons of the same type having different values for dual handedness. "Why does APPX only have to have three points in off hand for his Krath War Blade, while I have to have four for my Sith Sword? A sword is a sword, right?" Personally, I think placing them into the preexisting categories that we have for the CS's would work just fine. (to dual wield anything in the sword category you would need 3 Swords/4 Off Hand, etc) The only problem I can see with that is weapons that have dual types, like the Darkstick.

Darkstick

Skill: Dagger/Vibroshiv and Shurikens/Thrown Weapons

Here it would have to be made clear what the rules are as far as this goes. Personally, I think it would be best that the person would have to meet the off hand requirements for both weapon types.

2) I think leaving it the way it is now works just fine honestly. Making them look it up and place it in a custom slot pretty much forces them to research it as well. It also serves to make it harder to just plug in and go, you know as well as I do that some people just plain won't look it up to put it on the CS. So that goes a long way in making dual handedness something that not everyone will have. Hopefully meaning that those who do use it will use it well because they've actually looked it up to place on their CS.

Excellent points...

1) I don't think it would be wise to allow "every sword" to be dual handed; in fact, I've thought of creating categories within each type. For example, by its description, the Krath War Blade should not be dual handed capable, while something like a katana could be, easily.

So, I was looking at having weapon types and weapon categories (which we actually already have in the compendium, just never really used it for anything), like;

Weapon Type: Sword

Sword Category: Two Handed
-Krath War Blade
-Blastsword
-Energy Sword
-etc

Sword Category: One/Two Handed
-Katana
-Sith Sword
-Fira
-etc

Weapon Type: Blaster Pistol/Rifle

Blaster Pistol/Rifle Category: Two Handed
-All Rifles

Blaster Pistol/Rifle Category: One/Two Handed
- All Pistols

Etc. etc. etc.

In this way, items in a 'two handed' category can't be dual wielded. This would just simply be due to their size. Now I know my immediate thought is, well, lets make a STR requirement...f**k that too much work. Just for sake of argument, they can't be dual wielded.

2) Good.

Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. It all goes back to the Rambo example that is/was in the Compendium...lol. I think that in cases like blaster rifles, no one is going to realistically wield two of them...at least not accurately. The same could be said about a sword of too much weight, although STR would kind of play a role in that, I agree that it's too much work...too many calculations.

Per the mail I sent out this morning,

Implementation of a strong hand point requirement; Since day 1 we have associated the weapon types with skill...I have come to the conclusion that is complete garbage We need to tear that apart; the weapon's type will simply become knowledge of that weapon type, like how to use it, the forms and styles of it and that kinda thing, while a strong-hnad point allocation will cover the actual skill with it. For instance, my 'knowledge' of a .45 is easily a "5"; but I build them better than I shoot them, making my skill, easily a "3". The way it is now, my "5" in knowledge gives me a "5" for use - if we go for the change, my "5" remains knowledge and I have to spend the points for use skill.

This came from the thought of the 5 cap we use and how I have been trying to make things a bit more expensive to keep the points more realistic - since people obviously can't do that themselves. I just don't buy anyone - I don't care who they are (myself included) - walking into a battle with 3 swords, 5 daggers, 6 blasters and being absolutely proficient in all of them. So - splitting everything up between knowledge and ability might be the best move we've ever made. What do you think?

I whole heartedly agree. But how would this be accomplished? Two sets of points to fill out for each type of weapon i.e. Swords - Knowledge 5, Skill 5, Blaster Pistols/Rifles - Knowledge 3, Skill 2?

Does that mean more points for CS's (as it will be twice the points to technically "master" a weapon)? I mean, I know if we give them twice the points we're back to square one with everything being the same, but maybe just a few extra wouldn't hurt to keep the bitching about the new system to a minimum.

Does knowledge have to be equal to or greater than skill?

Just a few questions that came to mind. I'm sure I can think of more.

No, technically, we wouldn't change a thing in the process - the only thing that would change would be what the points mean. All of the weapons types; Sword, Baster Pistol/Rifle, Whip/Tethered Weapons etc currently have their points described by the 1-5 stat scale (somewhere in the middle of the CS Guide page). That scale would move to cover strong hand and off hand while another scale would be drawn to address knowledge, which would apply to the types...

Sword: 5
Strong Hand: 3
Off Hand: 4

Sword = that individual's knowledge of sword use is a 5
Strong Hand = their skill/ability in their strong hand is a 3
Off Hand = their skill/ability in their off hand is a 4

see? it's just an adjustment to what everything "means". However, without the coding to require strong hand points - even if they're not dual wielding - this is something that will still continue to teeter.

With the write up of the weapon guide that I linked to you - those who don't dual wield will have skill and knowledge remain with the 'root' weapon type points.

Crystal clear now, and yep that makes a lot of sense.