Ability scors and Rank

I have a question/problem perhaphs you can answer for me. Or Dal perhaphs you can give a definitive answer. As you level up in ACC and the Brotherhood, you get more ability points to advance your characters ability scores. Now, apperantly also if a say DJK fights a DJM with say exactly the same scores in say Dex and Wis. Apperantly from what I have heard the DJM would own the DJK in speed and Force power because his skills are 'so much more developed'. To me as a role player it doesnt make sense. If that is true, what exactly is the determining factor? How much more is the differance? Or is this just something higher characters created that acctualy has no basis in how the ACC is run? I like solid numbers, not hearsay and conjecture. any help is appricated, thanks.

While I am no expert on the ins and outs of the ACC I will give this one a shot. Yes the DJM would own in force powers even if their Wisdom is the same, because the DJM has access to far more powers then the DJK does.

Think of it this way both the DJK and DJM have 10 force points from their wisdom.(all numbers are made up for this example.) The DJK only has access to the Journeymen level powers, while the DJM has access to Elders, on top of that the cost of using a power is far less for a DJM then a DJK.

As for the speed here is my theory on it everyone has access to the power "Prowess" but a DJM using the power would be able to do so at almost no cost and without almost any thought, unlike the DJK.

Just my 2 credits worth.

I understand what your saying. But look at it from this point of view. I dont assume anyone uses anything. So unless directly stated in [] or as a note or something that someone IS useing those powers, they arnt. So if I have a Dex of 21 (which I do btw) and my opponant a DA has a speed of say, 15 or so, Id run circles around him, unless he used Force to augment. I mean seriously. But the real question is also, how much can you modify your abilities by with the Force? About force, Yes, you have access to more force 'techniques' But that doesnt mean your connection to the force is stronger. Doesnt mean you resist it any more, or anything. It just means you have more methods to use it at your disposal.

I actually do think your connection to the force is stronger the higher you go up. Fictionally speaking, you don't become an equite until you have mastered Journeyman, and so on. Now, someone with a lot of points in wisdom means they have the raw power. However, the lower ranked you are, the less skill you have with said power. Meaning you can use the power, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective as someone who had already mastered those powers (even if they do have a lower Wisdom level).

Just an example. I'm fighting lets say a GRD with a wisdom of 18 and I have 15. We each attack each other with Telekinesis and the smack head on. Fictinally speaking, will a Guardian be able to actually overcome the Adept in such an instance?

As for the physical aspect, someone could overcome just about any disadvantage using the force, but only for a short period of time. And unless stated that they used the force to augment themselves, physical stats are taken at face value.

Well you know how to manipulate what you have better, and are more effective with it. Based of the...stupid things in Ep 1, your connection is fairly constant. You just learn how to better control it and inflict it more effectivly. If thats the case, I think that your abilitiy scores should be altered to the fact of that aswell. Like I said I like numbers, or at least formulas to get it more exact. AND for that mater, how does Order play into things? I mean Im Krath, Im more affective at Force powers, but not nessisarly in combat things, so that should also have some basis.

First, the latter comment, your Order doesn't mean anything... to the ACC. You can "play" your Krath as not knowing much in the way of combat, but that's your decision... not ACC fact. "Dalthid" is a Krath, and with the exception of a brief stint as a Sith, always has been - However, he actually knows sh*t about their lore and is actually 100% combat efficient... so, why is he a Krath and not an Obelisk? Because I want him to be... plain and simple.


Now to cover the Force and Physical attributes as far as numbers are concerned. In the Force, the numbers between a DJK and a DJM are not even close being the same - even if a DJK has 22/22 WIS vs a DJM with 10/25 WIS - fact is, a DJM can kill with a thought. The fact that we even allow them to fight such low ranks (comparitively) is a nicety in itself So, lets get off of the DJM and get into a realm that we can actually discuss.

DJK vs KE. In the Force, between ranks seperated by this degree, the numbers still differ and the reason is scope. I know you want a hard and fast "in stone" scale that is flawless, unfortunately, that's impossible. The knowledge base is what determines who would win in a Force battle. Out of the entire ACC roster, (keeping in mind that I have been on staff since before the ACC even opened its doors) I have only seen MAYBE 5 DJK's actually write their Force use correctly.

A DJK with a 17 WIS that attempts to throw [TE] a heavy rock, for example, should only be succeeding about 60% of the time - despite his WIS score... yet most write their success at 100%. The same boulder, thrown [TE] by an Epis would succeed 100% of the time when compared to the DJK because it's a skill of a tier that has already been mastered. Think of it like this, you do not master Journeyman powers until you become an Equite, you do not master Equite powers until you are an Elder etc. As your access to the Force increases in scope so does the mastery of what you have already learned.

That's why a Journneyman's Force 10 is different than an Equite's 10.


Physical prowess is a COMPLETELY different story. If you have been told that your 21 DEX is slower than a DJM's 10 in DEX, then you have been mislead. Physical stats have NOTHING to do with the force, they are the physiological #'s that make up your character and are not related to how in tune with the Force you are.

HOWEVER, if it is a question of combat prowess or detection - not raw skill - then you would be slower 'in the eyes of the DJM', let me explain. If a 21 DEX DJK and a 10 DEX DJM had a foot race, with no Force involved, the DJK would win. But, if a 21 DEX DJK used his/her speed to 'attack' that 10 DEX DJM (especially when tagged with the word "suprised") then I'm afraid they would find themselves dead. INT and WIS are poorly explained in the ACC Compendium, and I'm sorry for that, we're working on it - but they are related to the Knight's ability to use their own speed for an advantage. Due to the prowess of a Dark Jedi Master, it doesn't matter how fast a DJK is because the mind of the Master forsees, predicts and warns.

Light years away, Obiwan 'knew' that Aldeeran had been destroyed because the Force told him, he didn't "call on" any power (I know he's not a dark jedi ). So it is with our DJM's... they needn't 'call' on the ability, they just have it... it's the ability to just 'know'. Do you think a DJM is not going to have the same kind of Force wisdom when in combat as Obiwan had of a place that was so far away? I will not argue that you're faster... a 21 is pretty fargin quick, but, in this case... does it really matter? No.

Again, the Operators should be looking at the instance and what is actually happening. If you are fleeing, with your 21 DEX bad-mamma-jamma-self, then heck... you're gone, unless the DJM really wants you "not" to be But if you're attempting a deathweave on that DJM and cite your 21 DEX - sorry, but its not going to amount to a hill of beans considering the DJM's prowess. You sure would be quick getting there, but getting there for what? to die? If you write that your speed gets you in there so fast that the DJM is 'surprised' and you're able to land some blows... sorry, but you've already lost the match. No DJM is just gonna 'let' anyone come, especially when they can prolly see it from a mile away.

Thank you so much for that Dal. It acctualy makes sense. I though if I posted it here, it might benefit more then just me . Basicly what your saying also is there are some powers that just are, not really used ones. Such as Attack Antisipation [AA]. Its basicly a 6th sense, not acctualy a power, more of an ability, that cant really be shut off, even in no Force power battle. It simply is. Well thanks for your time.

right... but remember, powers like [AA] still need to be "called" at the lower levels... an, as they become second nature, like an Elder, then you're right... it's like an 'always on' thing... yet, we still ask that they tag them in battles just so everyone knows what's going on.

Yes of course. I guess I forgot to mention that. They are always on, but you mark them as nessisary to show exactly why something happened. Like a DJM somehow sidesteping an attack or something with [AA].

This actually highlights why I'd rather we had a standard number of physical/mental attribute points regardless of rank.

To compare to ordinary roleplaying for a second, there is never a huge difference in STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS and CHA between a Level 1 character and a Level 20 character. Alright, you get a few bonus points, which you use to specialise that little bit more, but it ends about there.

Naturally however, a Level 1 Fighter with STR 15 isn't going to do half the damage of a Level 20 Fighter with STR 15. There's more to it than just your attribute scores.

I've never agreed with why a DJM should actually be stronger, tougher, faster, more intelligent, wiser or more charismatic than an INI.

Think of a Level 1 Wizard compared to a Level 20 Wizard. There's not a huge difference in attributes. The difference in is the spells they can us. The difference is because most decent spells have something that reflects their Level, a fireball might do 1d4 damage per level or something. That's why as soon as you put the Force into the picture the DJM is going to own no matter what the statistics of the lower ranking Dark Jedi.

I can see the sense in following the traditional RPG example of an additional attribute point every now and then, but I never like how a GRD can only ever end up as 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7 or something, and a DJM 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18. I'm exagerating, but you get the point.

I personally prefer when I'm fighting an opponent and know their attributes are similar. If someone is faster than me I usually play on it so I can at least take a couple of hits, though I'm the sort that likes to play with my prey a bit before killing it. By comparison, if I see somebody with DEX 8 I can never physically comprehend how slow they'd be.

I remember one of the mock character sheet rewrites I saw a couple of years ago expanded by including Mystical Attributes of Attunement, Precision and Potency, I always felt they were a lot more appropriate than Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. Sure, INT, WIS and CHA are used in RPGs, but to anyone who doesn't do RPGs, and even people who might play NWN or KOTOR, they don't mean a lot when thinking about Force Powers.

I can imagine the differences between somebody with Attunement 5 and Attunement 10 though. They're also statistics that work with increases with every rank. They were basically a number system for your rank. APP was Level 1. NOV Level 2. ACO Level 3. Etc. It seems half pointless, but at times people need to have the numbers put right before their eyes. I always thought it added that extra little bit of characterisation. My character, while a DA and high in all three categories, would have had a higher Potency than Precision. I just blow things up, I don't care if I blow the whole building up to do it.

By comparison though, while I might have much, much higher Precision, Attunement and Potency scores than a GRD, I don't see why I should necessarily have any higher STR, CON or DEX. Being promoted doesn't magically make my muscles stronger. I can use stronger Force powers, I can use Enhance Skill, but my whole body frame doesn't suddenly transform into something better.

Thats what I feel the problem is with allowing bonus points to be put into any of STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS or CHA. Everyone wants to think they're a powerful Dark Jedi and can use Force powers, but so many also neglect INT, WIS and CHA because, at face value, they sound pointless and inappropriate. Having Precision, Attunement and Potency on a whole different points scale forced people to think about their characters Force/Mystical Attributes. The danger when you stick STR, CON and DEX into the same bracket is people just beef up their physical attributes and forget their mental ones are important.

That's good for roleplaying. It means you might not be very good with using the Force but are a good warrior. That's hard to fit into our ranks though. I doubt anyone would be a Dark Jedi Master because they're a good warrior rather than a powerful Force user. Hence why I always think it stupid when I see someone with STR 24. Whats the point? I'll just use Enhance Skill and get STR 50. I'd rather know their Potency with the Force, that way I'll know if their Enhance Skill is going to be more potent (read: stronger) than my use of Enhance Skill.

Though... they're not playing into the RPG being developed by the LH Office, so I don't really know why I'm talking about them...

I'm not sure, exactly, what it is you're talking about. From what I gather, you seem to be trying to attribute the ACC stats into your standard d20 system... which can't be done. The ACC is, first and foremost, a 'writing' platform. It only 'shadows' actual RPG at an EXTREMELY minimal level.

So real quick, can you make a single point so I can address it? I know you run off at the mouth, I do the same thing, but see if you can squeeze that drivel down for us slow folks... thanks

I actually don't understand d20 so if what I wrote was d20... wow. I just invented d20


Basically:

1. I like the idea of physical attributes being more or less the same irrespective of rank. I always think it rather silly that a DJM is somehow superhumanly strong even without the Force than a Journeyman. I'm happy for both to have very similar STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS and CHA. The difference is in their Force abilities.

2. A former ACC character sheet revamp I saw ages ago included "Mystical Attributes" that were totally seperate from Physical and Mental. These were Attunement, Potency and Precision. They entirely represented your Force Abilities. They were basically a lot clearer in respect of your ability to use the Force than WIS, INT and CHA. Attunement is what it says. I don't like that its INT that represents your ability to call on the Force: how is that related?

3. Rather than keep pumping points into STR, CON and DEX like people do; the benefits I saw to Mystical Attributes was it forced people to think about their Jedi qualities: Attunement, Precision and Potency. Nobody thinks or cares about their WIS, INT and CHA for what they actually mean in the ACC.


But, like I said, the RPG system doesn't include Mystical Attributes, so talk of them probably isn't worth much. I just always preferred the idea. For a quick mock idea of what I mean to get the idea across:

Jedi Hunter:
STR 15, CON 16, DEX 18, INT 16, WIS 17, CHA 15
Attunement: 4
Precision: 3
Potency: 5

Dark Jedi Master:
STR 16, CON 15, DEX 19, INT 16, WIS 15, CHA 16
Attunement: 12
Precision: 10
Potency: 15

That's what I'd rather see. Physically they're the same build: we're mostly just human after all, right? A Dark Jedi Master doesn't magically become a champion boxer or a body builder. The difference would be in their Force abilities. That's why I liked Mystical Attributes.

I think Dalthid mentioned earlier that without the force a DJK with a higher level of any attribute (lets stay strength) would be better (stronger, in this case) than a DJM with a lower statistic. So there is a difference.

The problem presently though is that for a DJK to have a higher statistic they've got to totally nerf another statistic.

If you get, say:

Dark Jedi Knight:
STR 20, CON 15, DEX 15, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 10

Dark Jedi Master:
STR 16, CON 17, DEX 18, INT 16, WIS 17, CHA 15

Again, off the top of my head so the numbers aren't going to quite add up, but the principle is there. I'm all for a Dark Jedi Knight being faster, PHYSICALLY, than a Dark Jedi Master, but I hate that currently it would make them a total vegetable with the mental capacity of a magot. That just seems dumb.

It's even worse in the other Journeyman ranks who's Physical Attributes make them appear like a bunch of five year olds who can barely lift a newspaper. If they do spend points giving themselves realistic STR, CON and DEX they then end up being complete brain dead dunces with INT, WIS and CHA of about 5 or less. That's just silly.

That's just the nature of the points system, not something we concocted to piss you off All RPG type character sheets siphon points and make you choose what's more important for your character. In our case, INT, WIS and CHA also cover the Force use and level of union with the Force, it doesn't seem to work out too badly.

I do agree, however, that the Physical and Mental attributes being drawn from the same pool is a bad idea, maybe that's something we can address with the new character sheets. I don't want to add the mystical attributes though, it's too redundant. Force use is mental and should remain linked to the mental abilities of the character. From the new CS, this is how the mental section now reads:



Mental Attributes:
Mental attributes not only cover the 'brain-power' of the character, but they are also related to how 'in-tune' with the Force the character is. Much like the Physical attributes, the Mental attributes are also comparative. Offensive Force powers, and their 'potential' effectiveness, are dictated by the WIS attribute. Defensive Force ability of a character is dictated by CHA, for example.

Intelligence (INT): This point shows how clever and able to find ways out of situations your character is. It is also the marker by which a character is deemed 'able' to decide what Force powers should be used, are being used and the best course to combat them.
3-8 Skill Points: Total moron. Plant. Fungus. Maybe even below that. You hardly understand what the Force is, let alone, can discern its use.
9-14 Skill Points: Able to solve basic mathematical equations i.e. 1+1=2. Your knowledge has grown, but 'understanding' of the Force is still out of reach.
15-20 Skill Points: Quite ingenious, able to use your wit to slip away from trouble's harm. The diversity of the Force is easily understood at your knowledge level.
21-26 Skill Points: Absolute genius, facets of the Force are an open book to you.

Wisdom (WIS): This is related to your character's 'understanding' of the world and the ability to navigate through hands that life has dealt. It is also the ability to draw on the Force as fast as you can possibly can, when situations require its assistance while being related to how 'potent' your Force power is and the accuracy of its delivery.
3-8 Skill Points: You need to sit down and concentrate in order to call upon the Force. Even with concentration, success ratios are still around 50% or less when using the Force, in any aspect, as you hardly know what it is.
9-14 Skill Points: You can call the Force while doing some basic movements, like standing up, or walking. The thought of 'attacking' with the Force never crosses your mind, but you find it useful when picking up small objects.
15-20 Skill Points: The Force can be called within you even when you're fighting your opponent. At your knowledge level, Force use is exceptional with powers that don't effect your opponent's being directly. Yet, powers that are 'aimed' at your opponent's person still have a chance of failure.
21-26 Skill Points: The Force constantly surrounds you, thus, not requiring a need to 'call' it. At your level, Force powers don't usually fail. Baring outside interference, your mental condition or the abilities of an opponent, you will see 100% success most, if not all, of the time.

Charisma (CHA): This is how people react to you and how you interact with 'life'. It is also the ability to use the Force to block your opponent's Force enhanced/ Force related attacks that target you directly.
3-8 Skill Points: You will have to heavily rely on your physical status to avoid being hurt by Force attacks. Most times you don't even realize that the Force is being used against you.
9-14 Skill Points: After some moments of concentration, you are able to block the simplest Force powers your opponent throws at you. You can feel that the Force is bending to your opponent's will, to be used against you, but your relation to the Force isn't quite enough to use it for too much of a defense.
15-20 Skill Points: You're able to block many Force powers without any means of stopping and concentrating. Be careful that you don't misread the scope of your opponent's attack.
21-26 Skill Points: You can block and repel most Force powers back to your opponent, turning them against him.

I'd actually disagree that Force use is mental, it's more spiritual than anything.

I've always hated RPG in general for revolving around INT, WIS and CHA, I've always felt them wrongly named. Charisma especially. They're more qualities I would link to a character's personality than any metaphysical/intellectual quality.

But the problem is you'd need too many skillpoints if you'd add more facets. Too confusing.

Looking at it from RPG view, Arania's INT and WIS values are rediculously high but in the light of the ACc it makes sense. No problem with using it that way.

Still, minor point compared to the other point I made, about how a Journeymens entire attributes are rediculously low. Normally in real RPGs you only get a new ability point every 3rd level at best, that's not exactly many.

But with us you get a new one every single rank, which I feel overpowers Elders beyond being overpowered to stupidly powered. After all, it is just dumb to be able to score high in all six attributes- why have attributes if you're just going to do that? Even as an Elder you should be specialising.

But, since an Elder has an entry 14 or so points, which in RPG terms would be more than every 2nd level, they don't have to specialise, they can just become godlike. Now, I'm all for godlike Elders, but through the Force, not their vital statistics. After all, Palpatine: weak and old v super intelligent and strong in the Force, or Mace Windu: strong v not quite as strong in the Force compared to Yoda. With us you don't get that, with us you just get Journeymen = sucky and Elders = godlike.

Well, I disagree with gravity, but that doesn't make it stop being so

If all you want to do is give journeyman more points and take away points from the elders, okay... but what's with all the drama?

Did you need 16 million pages to say that

I know what you mean, but again... THE ACC IS NOT AN RPG!!! It only has the subtle themes of one... RPG standards will NOT work here.


Seriously though, the ACC system works. Elders don't win as much as you think, and in the ACC its the writing that matters. Stats only play a negative role in the people who don't know what they are and most times (heck, all of the time) it's the Journeyman that think they're "godlike" when they fight an Elder. If there were such grevious inefficiencies in the system, I would change it, but there aren't - fact is, the better writers win (barring f**kups by idiot judges ) and that's the game folks!

I know the ACC isn't an RPG; that's what I'm saying! To get rid of a lot of the unnecessary "character levelling".

Acquiring more Force powers by rank? Sure. Good.
Acquiring a more physically stronger character by rank? Huh?

Journeymen often win, but they nearly always have to write that they die to be given any points for realism. I'd rather see it that they could have equivalent STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS and CHA to a Dark Adept so they could at least spar with them pretty evenly. If the Dark Adept then chooses to liquidify their ass using Force Lightning, good luck to them living through that, but I generally prefer to give them a chance and play on their advantages.

If a guy is faster than me, I usually write it into a post. The problem is, if a Journeyman HAS plugged enough points in to be higher than me in any attribute, it probably means they've had to totally nerf another one. Therefore, a person who is faster than me, probably has an Intelligence score comparable to a maggot. If you then take that realistically, it means while the guy can run, he's probably too stupid to run in the right direction.

I never like that... I'd rather someone be able to be comparable to me in stats. That way its more about their inginuity to use their lesser Force powers to their advantage and try to outsmart me.

Alright, so then how do characters get points? If not by rank, then what?




Now, I have to ask a question out of curiosity, do you think that a KP/SW/OT could defeat a DJM? I'm not talking about writing, I'm not talking about the ACC, I am talking about the grand scheme of the star wars theme as it applies to the brotherhood.

That's the point. They don't get additional ability points.

If it was a non-Force match then an Apprentice should be able to kill a Dark Jedi Master.

I have never seen a valid reason that justifies why a Dark Jedi Master should be PHYSICALLY more able than an Apprentice. Anakin Skywalker was as physically capable as any of the Jedi Council members when he was a Jedi Padawan. He didn't have the Force training, that didn't stop him being as athletic as anyone else.

It also makes the Rite of Exaltation worthless. So they get upgraded to the same Force powers as their opponent. Great. They still have STR, CON and DEX equivalent to a maggot.

I'd welcome a new combat hall that was entirely non-Force based for more evenly matched fights. It gets old fast when every opponent you fight is not just weaker than you in the Force but has STR, CON and DEX weaker than you; why should they? A wookie should be stronger than me. Yet an Apprentice Wookie has STR, CON and DEX comparable to a 5 year old when placed against a Dark Jedi Master.

Alright, you do know that the physical and mental attribute points share the same points pool, right? So what you are suggesting is to seperate them in the coding/db so combatants only get a specific number of physical points while their mental points go up with rank?

Okay, so what justifies how many points they start with for their physical stats, and when/how, if ever, do you get more?

I don't get why mental attributes should increase either. The idea of the STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS and CHA statistics are to characterise who you are. If you want to focus on being a Force user then you do that, if you want to focus on being a warrior then you do that. Allowing people to then increase their points as they go up in rank just removes any characterisation. By the time you get to DA you can plug enough points into all six attributes to be good at everything. Now, thats all fine an dandy for those people who want to be invincible and without weakness, but its far from realistic.

Skill with Force powers increases through logic more than anything. I'm not going to get into Rebirth but at least at that stage we'll be able to attribute Force points to individual Force powers to clearly demonstrate increasing proficiency with various powers.

A Dark Jedi Master might be able to resist Force powers better, but that comes from a. knowing the power being used and being able to counteract its affects and b. knowing superior techniques that guard against lesser Force powers. Conduit is a simple excuse for an Elder to be able to absorb nearly every type of Force power, likewise an Elder who wants to focus on defence might want to completely perfect the use of Absorb/Dissipate Energy.

INT, WIS and CHA are more a natural attribute. The best way to demonstrate this fact is here;

DJK INT 15, WIS 15, CHA 15 vs DJM INT 15, WIS 15, CHA 15

If, as presently implied in the compendium, INT, WIS and CHA purely determine your Force awareness and such then that means these two should be evenly matched. Obviously; they're not. The DJM is far superior in the Force. That comes from the excessive knowledge of superior applications of the Force (aka, powers) and the fact they'll have mastered the more rudimentary powers to a much higher level to be able to easily block them.

The thing is, when you get a DA being able to go STR 16, CON 16, DEX 16, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 16 (which happens to be more or less what mine are) then suddenly the whole idea of characterisation is gone. A DA is brilliant at everything... how interesting... *sighs*

The raw attributes tell you about the character more than their power. I know the DJM is stronger than the DJK because, well, he's a DJM. It doesn't need to be a quantitative measurement, its a qualitative measurement based on simple logic: higher rank = stronger. When that becomes merged with character attributes though you suddenly lose the sense of character, you just get superhumans.

It may not be D&D but the basic principle is there. A Level 20 Wizard is stronger than a Level 1 Wizard even if he has exactly the same statistics.

Now sure, maybe its nice to award an extra attribute point every third rank or something, just to allow a little bit more specialisation when it comes to each individual, but with it being every rank as present you end up with, as I highlighted, characters that are just 16/16/16/16/16/16.

Being good at everything shouldn't really be possible. The old saying "A jack of all trades but a master of none" comes to mind. If somebody wants a rounded character who is the same at everything it should be mediocre at everything. If somebody wants to excel in one area it should be at the expense of another area; thats what characterisation is all about.

Presently though, that works for Journeymen, sure, they've got so few points they either excel in one department or are mediocre at everything. However, as you go up the ranks, it waters down to where you just end up excelling at everything because you've got so many points you can easily afford to liberally fill up every single attribute.

I'm all for a DJM being able to be physically stronger than a DJK. If they want to go that way; sure. But that means they shouldn't be able to become a superhuman master of the Force at the same time. If a DJM wants to be more a Darth Maul styled warrior who beefs up his or her STR, CON and DEX then it shouldn't be possible to get into the highest bracket of INT, WIS and CHA at the same time. However, as highlighted, the fact you can pretty much go 16/16/16/16/16/16 means if you want to end up as an excellent warrior, you can... and still be excellent at using the Force or vice versa. That kills the fun in my book, and the only reason its possible is if we're allowing Elders too many bonus points. I'd probably have bonus points at GRD, DJK, Equite 1, DA, DJM or something, making that a total of just 5 points to use or so; enough to specialise but not enough to max out every single statistic. A maximum of 5 or 6 bonus points also has the added affect of meaning if you choose an 'all rounder' character an Elder would only be 1 point higher than an APP in every statistic. So if, say, the numbers worked that an APP could be 14/14/14/14/14/14 the Elder would end up as 15/15/15/15/15/15. To me that would be fair. If an Elder wants to remain good all round they're not going to end up excelling at everything. By comparison if they wanted to become more of a Force wielding adept they might become 14/14/14/16/16/16/16, remaining somewhat all round but having just enough to demonsrate their specialisation. At the same time an APP might specialise and be 12/12/12/16/16/16 when they start off, again, not as strong as the Elder, but still in the right "region" for it to seem realistic. After all, a DJM may improve a little, but they're not going to mythically double their natural strength, thats just ludicrous.

To me that type of set-up, where, yes, DJMs are stronger, but not stupidly so, and where characterisation is promoted on a far higher level than 'all-rounder' templates would be far more fun and enjoyable. I'd prefer an 'all-rounder' DJM to only be one or two points higher than the APP; so like I showed, 14/14/14/14/14/14 to 15/15/15/15/15/15 or something, rather than presently where its more like 12/12/12/12/12/12 to 16/16/16/16/16/16 or something of that sort.

At the same time, rather than messing with the way we do things currently that much, there are two other ways that might work:

1. Make the base quantity of attribute points higher. That way APPs can start out as a fairly good all-rounder then be encouraged to specialise as they increase in rank. It would mean you could specialise, but not appear to be quite so vast a difference. 20 to 16 appears less extreme than 20 to 10.

2. Force a minimum attribute assignment. Too many people seem to neglect some statistics to inhuman levels. I often see people with DEX 24 and something like CON 6, that's crazy. That would half imply that their bones would break just from the pressure of running so fast. If people had to have at least 11 in every statistic or something that might ensure people are at least 'human' before they start to specialise. It would possibly always make species a little more relevant, as of course if you've got a good reason, you play a weak insectoid species or something, maybe you would have a low CON.

I just hate god-characters; that's my main problem at present, as Elders just end up being masters of the universe rather than realistic characters. I like being able to excel at everything as much as the next DA but I often feel its at far too great an expense of the enjoyment of the regular member.

Im am curious, have any of you guys heard of/used the Palladium RIFTS system? They have their stats a bit differently than normal D&D style, same with character creation. Allow me to explain:

Intelligence Quotient (IQ) -- Untelligence of character
Mental Endurance (ME) -- How much mental and emotonal stress you can handle
Mental Affinity (MA) -- A persons charm and charisma
Physical Strength (PS) -- Raw physical power
Physical Prowess (PP) -- Shows the degree of dexterity and agility
Physical Endurance (PE) -- Stamina and duribility
Physical Beauty (PB) -- Physical attractiveness
Speed (Spd) -- Characters running speed

Now, these stats are very similer to D&D stats, but there are some distinct changes. Such as PB and MA, just because your pretty doesnt mean you can charm every one OR just because your not the greatest looking doesnt mean you are not a excelent speaker. How agile you are doesnt mean you nessisarly able to run fast either, it just means you are adept at dodging blows.

Also, this system takes into account certian Martal styles of combat. The better you are trained, the more you can do, or attack. The system is fairly detailed, and quite good. Its just more complicated than most people would like. Its not a power gamers system. Perhaphs this may also be the basis for some new things in ACC. But Ill let you guys tell me if you want to know more. I wont bore you any longer at this time .

The biggest problems wit any new ideas, yours or mine, is that Project Rebirth is already being built to the specifications set by the people who were in charge the 18 to 24 months ago when all the ideas first came together. I think that in a round about way the RPG rules that Kaiann has designed will accomodate a lot of this, its just a matter of waiting until they're public; admittedly I can't see the harm in that being as soon as, its not as if they don't yet exist, even if the present version is still considered a work-in-progress or a beta or something.

It would allow us to build our ideas better on whats already set in place for the future a lot more easily.

Yes, I do wish I knew more about what was going on with Rebirth. But, hopefuly it is worth the wait.

HOWEVER, if it is a question of combat prowess or detection - not raw skill - then you would be slower 'in the eyes of the DJM', let me explain. If a 21 DEX DJK and a 10 DEX DJM had a foot race, with no Force involved, the DJK would win. But, if a 21 DEX DJK used his/her speed to 'attack' that 10 DEX DJM (especially when tagged with the word "suprised") then I'm afraid they would find themselves dead. INT and WIS are poorly explained in the ACC Compendium, and I'm sorry for that, we're working on it - but they are related to the Knight's ability to use their own speed for an advantage. Due to the prowess of a Dark Jedi Master, it doesn't matter how fast a DJK is because the mind of the Master forsees, predicts and warns.


Sorry to grave-dig up this old thing, but this does not relate with realism as far as combat goes.

The master may see it coming, but with too low of a dexterity, he may be powerless to stop it from happening anyway.

Yes, he could overcome a situation by quick and judicious use of the force, but he'll get hit if he doesn't do it right now. That is besides the point to say that it would be incredibly difficult to surprise the DJM... but let's not assume deific levels of prowess in the elders when the stats don't support it.

and in the heat of combat, how would this whole thing explain two of the big kills in RotJ?
Luke slashed off Vader's arm...an event that couldn't possibly happen by ACC rules... a knight taking off the arm of a master. And then Palps (what would he be...an adept? prophet?) getting surprised by Vader...again impossible by these rules.

When we digress too far from the canon, we need to stop and take a look.

The best soldiers are often kiled by untrained and under-armed peasants. Surprise, deception, and stealth wins the day far more often than raw ability, superior abilities or training ever could, and with far less sacrifice.

Or as the old line goes: "No matter how powerful the wizard, a dagger between his ribs will seriously cramp his style."

something to think about.

Wow. Me, posting on the ACC board.

I have to agree with a couple of people, Muz to begin with. Yep, according to canon stuff, a lot of the ACC stuff just doesn't work, and vice versa. However, in the same respect, the movie stuff was for dramatic effect. It's a little harder to judge "reality," but what a movie-maker does to forward the story, and get the major point across.

I also think Goat does have a point. Rising in rank shouldn't necessarily mean a rise in physical or mental attributes. I've always thought you should have base physical and mental attributes, which rise very slowly, and then skill points more quickly for weapons, as your training increases, and a system of judging "Force potency." Yes, it's a moot point, with the work being done on character sheets and such, but it was a good idea.

And, I was thinking about something Dalthid said, with the ACC being a writing platform, not an RPG. To a certain extent, yes, but maybe that's why there's so many "godlike Journeymen," because they're not being tutored in being realistic. Yes, it sucks to "lose" every fight, and write about how, everytime you go in, you get stomped by people who far outrank you. But then again, don't we learn more from the failures, and mistakes, than the successes? I think the ACC should be more roleplaying-oriented, and it should also help teach people to be realistic.

But that's just me.

Well, the ACC is like real life in that regard...if you want to win every fight, you have to pick your opponents better.

What's unlike real life in the ACC is that even if your character gets decimated, your writing quality may still give you the match.

Unfortunately, whenever you get *rules* and *characters* together in any format, the result is a roleplaying game by definition. No statements to the contrary, stomping or whining changes that reality.

What Dalthid is trying to do however, is create his own rules, and a strict adherence to them as needed in something as contentious as a combat center. The problem comes in where his rules don't correlate with established rules, like the table top d20 system game rules, or whatever you have. People have to remember that the ACC is not based on any other rules because dalthid doesn't want it to be.

As far as the journeymen lacking power, perhaps someone should put up the "common person's" stats so that they can see that they do have an advantage. And perhaps a carefully delineated chart of what each point gives a person... for example, I couldn't find the rule about needing a WIS of 14 to be able to call the force while moving, yet i saw a battle that slapped a combatant for not writing that rule properly... If a person will be judged on not knowing the rules, the rules need to be out there.

and the whole "chance of failure" thing needs to be clarified.

The Journeymen getting beaten all the time thing is part of why I've always supported base physical and mental attributes. It'd allow them a chance to at least write a winning deathpost that showed them besting their opponent on physical (read: non Force) related grounds. Yes, it would require more thought, and they'd have to think of a convincing argument when composing their post, but it'd allow them to justify why they could beat the snot out of a Dark Jedi Master with their fists (providing they clarified that the DJM wasn't using Force powers for some reason). Right now though that's not possible as by the time you get to DJM you can pretty much max out all six of your core statistics, to make sure a Journeyman can't even come up with a way of beating you without Force powers.

*shrugs*

Again though the magic word; Rebirth. We've just gotta wait.

and the whole "chance of failure" thing needs to be clarified.



Well, I'm glad I finally found someone else who said this. I don't feel quite so alone anymore.

As a relatively new member of the DB/ACC, I tried to go through the ACC as much as I could when I started prepping for my first few matches. It wasn't until after my training battle and well into my second match that I came across the concept that one of the judging criteria was on how realistically we wielded the Force....and that phrase has always come across to me as "how often you fail in wielding the Force".

I'm really not sure how I feel about this concept. Basically this means that while people are encouraged to create their ACC character sheet (tangent: shouldn't we come up with a different name for it if we're trying to remove the impression that the ACC is more than superficially and RPG?) at NOV and begin participating in the ACC, they shouldn't expect to actually do anything Dark Jedi-like with the Force until they pick up a few ranks, and thus mastering the powers that the DSC says they have access to at NOV. I guess I just don't understand the idea of "you have these powers, but you don't really know how to use them yet".

Regardless of how I feel about it, since my opinion isn't likely to change the things, if this is something that factors into judging ACC battles as much as I have been led to believe, it should be codified somewhere in the Compendium somewhere. It's really not fair to judge battles on this criteria when you have to go hunting through MB topics to discover it.

Xanos: for what it's worth, I like your ideas for how to change things up.

I'll go back to hiding in my corner now.

In the end, it all comes down to patience. If you're patient you might get the snot beaten out of you regularly as an APP/NOV, but if you just keep fighting, keep improving, and keep rising in rank, then eventually you're going to be able to challenge somebody and have a match with them as an equal. Personal example- pretty much every other fight I used to write, I had to make myself get slaughtered, since I was fighting people like Dalthid and Ktulu while I was at the rank of GRD and JH. However, eventually I rose in ranks, was able to improve my attributes, and check me out. Got revenge.

Bit of a digression, but meh- what I'm getting at is that APP's/NOV's nowadays don't have patience. They want to be godlike as soon as they join- which is just stupid.

In the end, it all comes down to patience.  If you're patient you might get the snot beaten out of you regularly as an APP/NOV, but if you just keep fighting, keep improving, and keep rising in rank, then eventually you're going to be able to challenge somebody and have a match with them as an equal.  Personal example- pretty much every other fight I used to write, I had to make myself get slaughtered, since I was fighting people like Dalthid and Ktulu while I was at the rank of GRD and JH.  However, eventually I rose in ranks, was able to improve my attributes, and check me out.  Got revenge.

Bit of a digression, but meh- what I'm getting at is that APP's/NOV's nowadays don't have patience.  They want to be godlike as soon as they join- which is just stupid.



I completely understand that I should not expect to be godlike anytime in the near future. What I don't understand is 1) why I have to present myself as a virtual toddler in my battles and 2) since judging looks at things like how 'realistically' I wield the Force in my battles, why aren't those criteria mentioned somewhere in the ACC Compendium?

I guess the thing that gets me is that the current view of realism is that I can't present myself as proficient with any of the powers that match my current rank. I can only actually be proficient with powers from previous ranks. So, does this mean that Grand Masters are not proficient in the use of the Grand Master exclusive force powers? I know that's a bit of a stretch, but it seems a reasonable question to me in this instance.

When the RPG system comes along that actually will be the case: Grand Master's won't automatically be proficient in all their god powers. They'll have to pick one or two to perfect but only those who have been Grand Master for many, many years will be fully trained in the full school of Grand Mastery.

I agree though that I think its unfair that as a Journeymen you're expected to lose all the time. While what Manji says is partially true- people rise in time- I think that we're forgetting something if we're taking that attitude.

The average member is Dark Jedi Knight and below. The Equite ranks are for leaders and above with only the most exceptional and exceedingly rare ordinary member getting further.

What that means, to me, is that we should be aiming at ensuring that the Journeymen, the bulk, the group that makes up 90% of the club, are enjoying it. To me it seems rather unfair that you don't get to fully enjoy an activity until you get to Dark Jedi Master. It'd be comparable to saying "In Jedi Outcast a Journeymen isn't allowed to use Force powers in a 1v1 duel but a Dark Jedi Master is". Now its very true that the ACC should be about playing your character, but I don't agree that it should be about finding a thousand ways to describe your own character's death.

To take the attitude that everyone rises in rank eventually isn't appropriate in this instance, because everyone doesn't rise in rank. Most people think themselves fortunate for making Dark Jedi Knight, any further than that is a special thing. People should still be able to feel fully rewarded and able to enjoy things as an ordinary member without needing to take up leadership. If somebody gets to Dark Jedi Knight and never chooses to become an Aedile or higher that shouldn't stop t hem being able to enjoy things like the ACC as a DJK forever.

This is partially why I've been wishing for the past three years that we could upgrade the character sheets. This has been on my nerves before Rebirth was even created, so its a much longer standing isssue than just one thats been sidetracked recently on the "wait for Rebirth" pile, because I feel most of these problems would be solved by having the character sheets expanded to show Force Power Proficiencies. That way- in theory- a Journeyman *could* be as powerful as a Grand Master (in one Force power) if they pooled all their points into one ability. That would actually give them a chance at winning a fight, it'd still give the Grand Master the huge advantage but it'd mean it wouldn't be totally impossible to win.

Its similar at all rank levels. I only make use of two or three Elder powers, and would argue that I'd rival a Grand Master who dabbled in everything in those select few. The phrase "a jack of all trades but a master of none" comes to mind, because its true in this case. People who want to be proficient in everything would find themselves upstaged by an expert in one field. Of course a Dark Jedi Master who wanted to be a Telekinesis expert would be better than a Jedi Hunter Telekinesis expert, but the same Jedi Hunter might be able to be better at Telekinesis than a Dark Jedi Master Brainwash and Affect Mind expert. Its all about characterisation. Its sadly one of the things the current character sheets are unable to contain- which often leads to people vastly changing their character's attitudes from match to match.

You know, I wish we'd go back to the old way of gaining Force powers. Just so that the APPs have no powers whatsoever and once one becomes DJK they finally have access to all the Journeyman powers. That better showed that one learns things as they gain rank.

Muz, Dalthid did NOT create the rules, he keeps them up though because without them every last person would godmode. There's enough people out there doing that already. The rules are there for all to read, ACC operators follow those rules (or are suppose to).

However, the ACC is not an RPG. It's a place to write out fictional battles and better your own skills. It's about imagination not numbers. The points you put towards strength is there to give you and your opponent an idea about how much strength you have.

That doesn't mean your strength is always going to be that exact amount all throughout your battle. You do get tired, have bursts of increased strength, and so does your opponent. That's where the realisim comes into play.

IRL I can use a sword, I can hold it, swing it, and probably hurt someone. That doesn't mean I can beat a master swordsman because I have no training. The same holds true with any kind of skill. A GM is going to have way more training in the Force than a DJK. That should be a given.

You may continue complaining and what not. I'm done.

Every example given here seems to be a somewhat extreme one- like an APP fighting a DJK, or a GRD fighting the Grand Master. I'll say this- try picking on somebody your own size for once If you're a JH and you challenge another JH to a match, then it's equal- you can go crazy and have as much of a good fight as you want (within limits, obviously), because you won't be penalised for making your character spank the GM's backside. Or whatever. There are some kickarse fighters who are Jedi Hunters right now- Khamier Sarin, for one. He's beaten me. Enough said.

So seriously, the whole point is that it's about your writing, not how much your character gets owned. You have to remain detached- get annoyed at what happens to your character and it becomes no fun. Concentrate on making your writing the best it can be then see if you win. That's all that matters.

Oy vey...

There's no need to bitch at Dalthid because he's trying to fix things as fast as he can. The database issue is annoying, but hey... just so much that can be done about it.

Actually, if you'd stop arguing, you'd likely find a way to write your abilities in a believable way without sticking to the exact stats. I see the stats as a guideline even though my character's STR and DEX are supposed to be above what is given in the stats now. OTOH, Arania could likely kill about everyone under KP in a minute just with the Force, so adaptive writing is needed in both directions.

And Telona, I have to disagree. The ACC is RPG to a large part. It's also a run on to a part. Which makes it all the more fun.

I'd be interested in having a competition where stats don't count and anyone could pick any (SW possible) weapon they want. Then we'll see about writing your character in both interesting and realistic ways without any guidelines. And even better, writing your opponentn without guidelines.

For what it's worth, I'm not 'Bitching at Dalthid'. He has a very full plate, and he is doing his best to get there. The respect I have for him gets deeper as time goes by.

Further, I haven't been accused of writing my character's abilities wrong. Yet. I'm just concerned that since i can't really pull finite and solid descriptions/limitations that i might cross a line unwittingly. And since that can cause a loss, that is a valid concern. I understand and agree with the need for rules. But they need to be delineated much better than they are presently. Like Goat says, Rebirth will probably take care of a lot of this.

For what it's worth, Telona, I have my fourth dan (4th degree black belt) in Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido. The worst damage i ever took was from an untrained girlfriend. I got distracted, and she caught my forehead with a bokuto. Blood everywhere. This girl didn't have day one of practice. I got sloppy, and so I bled.

That is the real world. Chance plays into every contest, no matter how much skill the participants have. I have bested people well beyond my 'skill level' and have been bested by those that I should have lain to waste.

And think about it: You are writing yourself as a Dark Jedi. In a combat scenario. Roleplaying. Rules are held to to make sure that the constraints of that quasi-reality are upheld. Game. Just because the contest is not decided by which character 'wins', but rather the skill with which you portrayed them does not negate the rest of the whole experience. Look up the terms if you must.

That's like saying that Star Wars wasn't sci-fi, because it was more about good vs. evil. The ships weren't important, the blasters, aliens, blah blah blah, it was about fighting the power man, and how big government is evil.

Malarkey.

Don't delude yourself. We're all geeks here.

There are straight writing comps in the DB. No rules, don't have to use your character at all. Those are far less RPG than the ACC. Denying that the ACC is that is avoiding the questions that need to be addressed. Let's spend less time arguing semantics, more time on solutions, eh?

I'm a better geek than you are!

I'd still like a stat-less comp to see just how much we'd go awry.

ACC is a combination of writing/RP. It is however not (and I really hope) ever will be a strict-RPG (d20 type of thing). What makes it accesible to everyone is the relative ease to get into this type of RP structure. I guess that is the difference...it isn't a Role Playing GAME but just more Role Playing in a strict writing atmosphere.

You can never have set "solutions" for the ACC in terms of stats and how they're seen, especially in its current configuration. Just like in any writing competition, how certain aspects are seen will be based on the specific judge. What Dalthid has tried to stress is the general direction of how stats are to be used/judged/etc... in the ACC currently.

But you will always have to remember that this isn't an exact science and I personally never want it to be that way. There is a healthy room for difference, and there will be variance on how one person sees it compared to the next.

I'm sorry, but overall, if you're not happy in a very loose structure, the ACC isn't for you. It is however a great tool and activity for writers, not just RPers. So basically, have fun with this system. If you have specific questions on how things are judged, chosen, etc...ask, but the current ACC structure CANNOT BE CHANGED. PERIOD.

I read an article once by one of the Palladium Books staff writers (I think it was Wayne Breaux, but I don't remember for sure) where he described two basic kinds of role-playing games: with dice, and diceless. He gave the example of a D&D campaign he was in once, where he was a thief that only had 3 or 4 hitpoints. Meaning if he ever failed at disarming a trap, he'd be rolling up a new character. So he, as a player, made sure he never had to roll the dice. He would ask the DM questions and get as much info he could, until the DM ruled that he knew enough of the situation to be able to guarantee a success (in either disarming or avoiding the trap). It was still a role-playing game. He just removed the element of dice.

So, personally, I think the ACC is very much an RPG. Just not the standard RPG most people are used to. I know that there has been a lot of discussion (arguement, etc.) about changing or not changing the ACC. I don't have enough experience to really have much of an opinion yet about what does/does not work.

But from the few battles I have been in, I know now that "realistic" use of the Force in battles is one of the criteria by which the writing is judged. Regardless of my opinion on what should be deemed realistic, I only learned this fact about halfway through my first battle by perusing this forum. I could not find any information on this (or other judging criteria in general) on the ACC site or the compendium.

All I'm asking is can we please have a place somewhere that describes the basic judging criteria. I felt somewhat cheated in my first battle in that I lost points for not using the Force appropriately for the situation in my battle, when I had only just learned about this particular aspect of how it is all judged.

I read you Halc. Writing is a personal thing, and to judge it with specific guidelines and such would do it a disservice (so long as you keep the broad strokes correct)

But if someone is going to be docked points because he needs a 17 Wisdom to call the force while getting hit in the head with a mallet, that rule needs to be written somewhere.

Imagine in a spurious and overexagerated example that you drive past a cop and he pulls you over for driving an import, even though the rule wasn't posted or written anywhere. How on earth would you have known about the rule, much less change your behaviour so that you aren't breaking any rules?

If you lose points through a scientific method, the method should be posted. If not, no issues.

and Ara, Give me time. I may yet out-geek you.

Personally, and to give the rest of the Staff some support, the system works fine at the moment. As has been said, the ACC was never meant to be a strict RPG but about the writing abilities of each combatant.

And about geekiness... /me points to ID Line. I'm a lot farther along than you are Muz.

The problem here, as far as I can tell it, is simple. We're becoming far too reliant on numbers and statistics.

The ACC is roleplaying. It is not d20. d20 is also roleplaying. (ACC=roleplaying. d20=roleplaying. ACC=/=d20)

The ACC is not numbers. It is writing. d20 is numbers. The ACC is not numbers. (ACC=/=numbers. d20=numbers)

That is where the problem seems to be. We're increasingly turning the ACC into d20 by means of forever arguing issues based on numbers. Character Sheets are an indication of ability. They are not meant to be anything more, those that wish to argue with this please go back and see how combat writing was done in the Krath Combat Center, and before that when it was first created by Krath Priest Rage of House Marka Ragnos. It was originally based on nothing more than what rank you were: generalised roleplaying. It then got improved for the Krath Combat Center through the introduction of Character Sheets. It has effectively retained the same system under the Antei Combat Center but with much more attention given to the numbers.

Heres an example of what I dislike; a judgment that states a person could not do something, no matter how well written, because "20 CON beats 10 STR" or something equally pedantic.
That is d20. That is not roleplaying. Roleplaying does not mean numbers. It means what it says: roleplaying.

I'm going to interupt my trail of thought here just to make an extra point. Nothing is "not possible". Things may be unlikely, but a well written explanation is always possible. An Apprentice should be able to beat a Grand Master if they can justify the means. Everyone should remember that Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, was defeated by Luke Skywalker, Jedi Padawan.

The whole point of the original system of combat writing was that it was the quality of the writing that decided the outcome. Of course if you were a meagre little Ewok fighting against an eight foot tall Wookie then if you wrote something about being stronger it would be questioned. However, if you wrote something that made sense based on logic, as in, your writing justified how it was possible, you stabbed at pressure point on the Wookie or wedged your hand up and under a vulnerable joint, that was fine. These days though, no matter how well you wrote it, you'd normally be landed with "not possible, he has 20 CON, you only have 10 STR". Even if it were the other way around, you the Wookie and him the Ewok, you'd get the same kind of problem, despite that a Wookie should essentially be considered STR 24 regardless of point distribution.

That is where we seem to have forgotten somewhere alone the line that Character Sheets are an indication of ability. They're not meant to be absolute fact. Good writing outweighs the arbitrary numbers found on a Character Sheet. This is why for a long time I have been recommending we remove numbers from Character Sheets and just show the yellow bars.

For what it's worth, Telona, I have my fourth dan (4th degree black belt) in Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido. The worst damage i ever took was from an untrained girlfriend. I got distracted, and she caught my forehead with a bokuto. Blood everywhere. This girl didn't have day one of practice. I got sloppy, and so I bled.

I couldn't have asked for a better example. However, at present, the ACC wouldn't have much room for that. Well, it does, just we all like to make points speak louder than writing. If I wanted to compete against people in something that revolved around who could read the numbers off a dice better I'd go and play d20. I choose the ACC because it shouldn't matter if I decide to be faster than my opponent even if they have Dexterity 24. Just because a cheetah can run fast doesn't mean it's zooming around at 60mph all day long. While it is true that realism should be a part of deciding the outcome of battles the quality of the writing should still be the primary outcome. If somebody writes something like "Her opponent floundered for a split second giving her just enough time to dart under the next attack and land a heavy strike that floored him instantly" then the statement "her opponent floundered for a split second" should be enough to justify the next action, especially if she's trained in Shadow Fist. However I can just see the judgment being "DEX 10 v DEX 20, no chance of dodging an attack" and "STR 10 v CON 20" no chance of knocking him to the ground with one punch. Thats the kind of thing that I really hate. Especially if that decided the outcome of a fight, even if the other person's writing was terrible, contained thousands of spelling errors, grammatical errors, was poorly punctuated etc. To me nothing screams "bad writing" worse than somebody who fails to even run their post through a spell check. Yet nine times out of ten its the number game of Character Sheet against Character Sheet that makes or breaks a battle rather than who clearly put more effort into the post.

Its battles decided on this basis that I feel probably are the ones that recieve the most complaints regarding the outcome, as they're the ones applying a strict rule that isn't written anywhere. I'll quote Muz again as he mentioned a good example, and sticking with it is easier than making a whole new one:

But if someone is going to be docked points because he needs a 17 Wisdom to call the force while getting hit in the head with a mallet, that rule needs to be written somewhere.

That's very true. The problem is that in free-form writing you can never write down every possible application of the rule. The rule can never been explictely written down, meaning there are an infinite number of possible applications of the rule. Therein lies the problem. In such a stringent rule people are going to question the authority of the decision, because any such decision is always going to be based on personal oppinion. One judge might feel getting hit on the head wasn't such a bad thing, another might not, etc. I'd far rather weigh up the quality of the writing of the two players rather than worry about something so trivial as the number seventeen.

My last point is more a reiteration of a previous one:

You know, I wish we'd go back to the old way of gaining Force powers. Just so that the APPs have no powers whatsoever and once one becomes DJK they finally have access to all the Journeyman powers. That better showed that one learns things as they gain rank.

There were a lot of reasons for changing that, the main one, if I recall correctly, being to make it more enjoyable to participate. It wasn't much fun for an Apprentice to play, well, anybody, when they couldn't do anything. "But they're just an Apprentice" may be true, but they're the members of this club, and they're the ones we're here to please. I've seen a lot more people enjoy the ACC since they've been able to actually have some Force Powers and such to use compared to the days when they were limited to being a punch bag. Personally I still feel we restrict far too many powers to the upper ranks, especially the Elders. I support the lower members, the majority of the club, getting enjoyment out of things like the ACC more than I do protecting my character's private ubergod status as an Elder. I've always felt there are enough powers to restrict to the Elders to keep them special without preventing the normal member from having access to some of the most ordinary examples of dark side powers in Star Wars like Force Lightning. Since the eve of new material from the KOTOR series etc. I've not understood why we haven't added powers like Force Shock for the lower ranks to allow them to actually feel more like they're roleplaying Dark Jedi.

As far as I'm concerned other than Inflict Pain there isn't a single dark side Journeyman power, hell, the Journeymen powers are more in line with the light side than they are dark- see powers like accelerate healing and detoxify poison- all neutral, if not completely light. To me it's always seemed dumb that in a club that advertises itself as the Dark Jedi Brotherhood, a place to roleplay Dark Jedi, we've got the majority of the membership roleplaying neutral, if not fully light, Jedi Padawans.

That all said and done, this is why for years (and I mean that literally, like three years or so) I've been begging people to add Force Powers to the Character Sheets. That way people would actually be able to characterise what powers they specialise in. This was another of the main reasons the Force Power restrictions were relaxed from rank to class, as this was meant to be in the works but never happened. From memory I recall that Trev, among a few other people, all made up fully working Character Sheets to replace the current one (again, this was like three years ago, it was before the split, that much I am sure of).

That way not only would you have something that can be assessed in terms of numbers, you have a way of making characters more individual. You also have a way of displaying the clear differences in ability between an Apprentice and a Dark Jedi Knight. Plus you could even, more or less, relax the whole range of Force Powers, but just have differing costs (eg. one rank of Force Lightning might cost 10 points, whereas one rank in most current Journeyman Powers might cost 1 point) to allow people to roleplay the kind of character they want to.

Anyway... I've droned on for too long... I'll shut up now.

First, needing a 17 WIS to call the force while getting hit in the head? I'd have to see the context of where that was - more specifically, why it was written. Currently (keeping in mind that the stats are being redone), a 17 WIS would mean that you could call on the force while fighting your opponent; which is clearly stated in the Compendium, the next rung beneath that one (9-14) reads that you can call while doing basic movements, like standing or walking. Again, I'd have to see the context of what was written... not just go off of something that was 'picked', most likely out of context.

Second, I have the KCC Character Sheets... there were numbers in there too, so I dunno. What I do know is that 'numbers' played a role then... and YES, inevitably its the writing that matters. HOWEVER, this is how the numbers are used: The numbers determine your ability - you know that... and this is how we see it (as it applies to things that are deemed impossible, or unlikely): If a combatant has a 3 DEX, he shouldn't be writing that he ran faster than a combatant with 10 DEX because it's unlikely. When we write that something was unlikely, it means that it shouldn't have been written because of the stats of the person that wrote it.

Lets use the bokuto to the head example... if that was written in the ACC, EXACTLY the way it was described here - it would fly, even if it was APP vs DJK. The problem exists in the WAY combatants write something. Most folks get docked, not because of what they do, but because of the words they use to describe it, i.e. their writing. Here's an example:

[Dalthid has a 10 DEX, currently, that's average speed of a Human - and there's no need to get into what that is... it's being fixed ]

1) "The Pontifex displayed the agility of a finely tuned athlete as he flipped over his opponent and landed suquarely behind him..."

2) "Mustering his limited ability, as the Force wrapped tighly about his body [PRW], the Pontifex hurled himself over his opponent..."

The first one would be 'deemed' unlikely because 'average' DEX will not display the agility of a finely tuned athlete - no matter how much I (or you) want it to, it's how it was written. The second would pass as conceivable because it notes the Force needed to overcome a shortfall of ability. Hence, both have the same outcome, but one is more 'right' than the other in terms of the character.





At the outset, the KCC looked pretty closely as the writing being the judging factor - though I am not sure where you got the idea that numbers didn't matter. The scrutiny of the writing, in its original form, was done away with when the KCC was open to all orders. Many Obbies and Sith b*tched about the fact that they weren't Krath and shouldn't be judged as closely on the writing... suprised you don't remember that. So, the staff was instructed to back off a little as far as the writing was concerned.

Enter CM Gryffon. He established a 'criteria' system, one of his few good deeds In that system, holy-f**king-hell broke lose when more of a percentage was put on writing than the other items... needless to say, grammar/writing style fell to last place on the 'who-gives-a-sh*t-o-meter'.

So, it is not 'us' that have made the writing less important... its the Brotherhood members that are part of the ACC membership - so don't presume to think that we are the culprits for the horrid writing that comes out of some of these battles. Sometimes all we have left to judge on IS the numbers because the writing is so bad. On the other side, the same can be said for two good writers - when all things are equal, it goes to the numbers. What you see in a lot of the judgements are what made the judge reach their decision - so, if you see a lot of crap about stats, then a good bet is that the writing of both of the fighters was good enough (or bad enough ) that a winner couldn't be picked from writing alone.

Yeah, I know it's not your fault in respect of the ACC Staff, its more the fault as the actual combatants.

I do remember back when Gryffon first introduced the criteria and, yeah, as you said: people bitched. I can't say I was really anymore pleased back then than I am now though. I always felt it was taking the ACC in the wrong direction by placing limited marking on the actual writing in something that was meant to be combat writing.

Not saying that's your fault, but it doesn't mean I dislike it any less :S

Here's a question. Should a JH at 13 int be able to affect a NOV with a 6 wis/cha effectively with mind trick every time?

And, what are force points? I guess I used too many of them in a fight, and would like to know what I am supposed to do so I can avoid that in the future and write better.

Thanks a lot!

In response to the topic of force points...there are no set number of points. I do believe I know what you're talking about, and what the judge meant is that there is a limit to just how much force you can use before you basically tire. After awhile, you'll run out of steam in terms of force usage, just as you'd tire out physically if you were being overly active.

As I said, there is not set limit, and you basically just use your rank; your Wisdom and just the types of powers you use and how they're used to determine how much force to use in a match. As a JH, you wouldn't be able to use the force at every instant in a match, unlike an Adept or Master who almost always has the force surrouding them at all times.

As for the Mind Trick thing...with those stats you would be successful, however, I don't know the specifics of the match so I can't comment fully (how many times you used it...what were the suggestions, etc...).

Outgeek me? NEVAH!

I think as far as Force goes, just never use it too much. Aside from the realism issue with getting exhausted and all, it also makes for a boring read if you do nothing else all through the battle. Exceptions given, of course.

Thanks folks.